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I would like to ask Chinese president Xi Jinping when will Google and Facebook be available in China and all the rest of the Western social apps. Can I get any

I would like to ask Chinese president Xi Jinping when will Google and Facebook be available in China and all the rest of the Western social apps. Can I get any clarity and assurance? Thanks.

Gormo 2y ago
Reminds me of the ultimatum I gave my dog last week: I told him that if he didn't stop pooping on the floor, I would punish him by pooping on the floor myself.
- BitterCritter 2y ago
  I think that’s a bad metaphor, though I don’t particularly know what you’re trying to say.
  - SOTGO 2y ago
    I think they're trying to say that you don't respond to bad behavior (China banning apps) with your own bad behavior (US banning apps). If America is opposed to the way China handles social media then we shouldn't seek to emulate them
    - Supermancho 2y ago
      > I think they're trying to say that you don't respond to bad behavior (China banning apps) with your own bad behavior (US banning apps). This presumes an assumption. I don't consider the banning as a lever for ensuring US controls Tiktok as bad behavior. America has a vested interest in snooping on and having direct control over popular mediums of communication. Giving Chinese ownership access to the methods used (like the physical devices, et al), is a security issue. It's a cold war game that seems a little sophisticated for this day and age (somehow). The lack of understanding explains a lot of these wandering conversation about tangents.
      - Gormo 2y ago
        > America has a vested interest in snooping on and having direct control over popular mediums of communication. So this is the sort of statement that needs to be whacked a couple of times with a rolled-up newspaper. The US government does not have a vested interest in doing things expressly prohibited to it by its own constitution.
        Supermancho 2y ago
        Interest and action are separate. There was interest, so action was taken. Was the mechanism controversial? The mechanism, a law passed by the legislative body and upheld by the court seems like any other law. That's the qualifier in the US Constitution to know if it is constitutional or not. Don't whack me, it won't change my beliefs.
  - Gormo 2y ago
    My dog is a dog. He doesn't see anything wrong with pooping on the floor, so he won't be fazed if I do it too: threatening to poop on my own floor is not going to get him to stop doing it. If I follow through with my threat, not only will I be doubling up on the problem of poop on the floor, I'll also be behaving in a way that is far more improper and unacceptable for a me than it is for my dog, because we do not hold human beings to the same standards of behavior and hygiene that we expect from dogs. China is an authoritarian dictatorship. Their government does not see anything wrong with violating the rights of their citizens, so they won't be fazed if we do it too: threatening to restrict access to social media in the US is not going to get them to stop doing it in China. If we follow through with our threat, not only will we be doubling up on the problem of illegitimate political restriction on public discourse, we'll also be behaving in a way that is far more improper and unacceptable for the US than it is for China, because we do not hold constitutional republics to the same standards of rule of law and respect for individual rights that we expect from authoritarian regimes.
    - sarchertech 2y ago
      And yet you conveniently leave out the part where clearly the Chinese government desires that TikTok continue to operate in the US (under their control). Denying someone something they want is nearly the definition of punishment. The analogy only works if the US response to banning US social media was to do something similar like banning Russian social media that had no impact on China. As for whether the ban is legitimate or not, The Supreme Court unanimously ruled that it is. We’ve banned foreign governments from owning television stations for decades.
      - Gormo 2y ago
        So, by your way of thinking, if there was a chance that pooping on the floor myself might discourage my dog's bad behavior, I should go right ahead? It's not quite correct to say that the Supreme Court ruled that the ban is legitimate. It narrowly ruled that the immediate first amendment challenge wasn't sufficient to invalidate the law under intermediate scrutiny. The only thing they were evaluating was whether the impact of the ban was biased toward any particular content, which it isn't. They didn't rule on the overall constitutionality of the act, whether its first section amounts to a bill of attainder, whether the forced divestiture would amount to a fifth amendment taking, whether it violated the broader freedom of the press under the first amendment, or anything else. Those questions might well be evaluated later.
- NicuCalcea 2y ago
  China isn't your dog. What if you invited your neighbour over, and they pooped on your floor, repeatedly. And then they said you're not allowed into their house.
  - Gormo 2y ago
    If all of that happened, I still don't think I'd be motivated to poop on my own floor.
    - kelnos 2y ago
      That's fine, because that's not what the US is doing to China.
      - Gormo 2y ago
        No, "pooping on the floor" is the US government is doing to the US, regardless of whether its ultimate aim is to punish China. I am not willing to give the US government discretionary authority over what software I have access to in order to advance its geopolitical ambitions in relation to China.
- maeil 2y ago
  Did you know that foreign companies are banned from owning more than 25% ownership of a tv and radio broadcast licenses in the US? I'm sure you've spent much effort looking into and trying to repeal those laws too.
rchaud 2y ago
Zuckerberg already tried in 2015, went on a tour, gave obsequious speeches, spoke in Mandarin and asked Xi to give his unborn child an honorary Chinese name. Refused on both occasions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S20BoxH8W9g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S20BoxH8W9g
- piyuv 2y ago
  Guy really doesn’t have a spine
timewizard 2y ago
Just as soon as they allow the Chinese government censors to control what is and is not available on the platform. How you see his position as different from ours is an astounding result driven by American imperialist propaganda. None of these entities are on your side. Highlighting a false dichotomy does nothing.
- juunpp 2y ago
  The propaganda works well indeed. People taking sides is perhaps the saddest part of this story since the politics can be well understood with just a little review of history. You put it well in saying that none of the two are on your side. Wake up, sheeple; stand for principles, not one or the other government.
kccqzy 2y ago
Well fifteen years ago Google was available in China. And at that time, while the masses simply used Baidu, among the educated it was well known that Google delivered better results. And that was because Google capitulated to the censors. The government had a direct hotline into the Chinese offices of Google and could demand the search engine immediately ban certain keywords or results. At that time Baidu's censorship was quite a bit more heavy-handed than Google's. It was Google that grew tired of this arrangement and decided to quit. They first moved the operations to Hong Kong, and then later the Chinese government decided to block the Hong Kong version of Google. As a former Google employee, during my employment I found plenty of internal blog posts from the China team at that time about this arrangement. It was amazing to me that a lot of these internal blogs simply weren't deleted because people forgot about it and storage was so cheap.
- creato 2y ago
  A quick google suggests that in 2008, Google's search market share in China was ~45%. That's pretty significant.
BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
Could you potentially see an issue with both countries disconnecting their economies and communication networks? As we do this, I worry a war gets easier to start.
eunos 2y ago
When Google and Facebook agree to also base their servers in China and follow Chinese censorship law. You're welcome.

I would like to ask Chinese president Xi Jinping when will Google and Facebook be available in China and all the rest of the Western social apps. Can I get any clarity and assurance? Thanks.

Gormo 2y ago

Reminds me of the ultimatum I gave my dog last week: I told him that if he didn't stop pooping on the floor, I would punish him by pooping on the floor myself.

BitterCritter 2y ago
I think that’s a bad metaphor, though I don’t particularly know what you’re trying to say.
- SOTGO 2y ago
  I think they're trying to say that you don't respond to bad behavior (China banning apps) with your own bad behavior (US banning apps). If America is opposed to the way China handles social media then we shouldn't seek to emulate them
  - Supermancho 2y ago
    > I think they're trying to say that you don't respond to bad behavior (China banning apps) with your own bad behavior (US banning apps). This presumes an assumption. I don't consider the banning as a lever for ensuring US controls Tiktok as bad behavior. America has a vested interest in snooping on and having direct control over popular mediums of communication. Giving Chinese ownership access to the methods used (like the physical devices, et al), is a security issue. It's a cold war game that seems a little sophisticated for this day and age (somehow). The lack of understanding explains a lot of these wandering conversation about tangents.
    - Gormo 2y ago
      > America has a vested interest in snooping on and having direct control over popular mediums of communication. So this is the sort of statement that needs to be whacked a couple of times with a rolled-up newspaper. The US government does not have a vested interest in doing things expressly prohibited to it by its own constitution.
      - Supermancho 2y ago
        Interest and action are separate. There was interest, so action was taken. Was the mechanism controversial? The mechanism, a law passed by the legislative body and upheld by the court seems like any other law. That's the qualifier in the US Constitution to know if it is constitutional or not. Don't whack me, it won't change my beliefs.
- Gormo 2y ago
  My dog is a dog. He doesn't see anything wrong with pooping on the floor, so he won't be fazed if I do it too: threatening to poop on my own floor is not going to get him to stop doing it. If I follow through with my threat, not only will I be doubling up on the problem of poop on the floor, I'll also be behaving in a way that is far more improper and unacceptable for a me than it is for my dog, because we do not hold human beings to the same standards of behavior and hygiene that we expect from dogs. China is an authoritarian dictatorship. Their government does not see anything wrong with violating the rights of their citizens, so they won't be fazed if we do it too: threatening to restrict access to social media in the US is not going to get them to stop doing it in China. If we follow through with our threat, not only will we be doubling up on the problem of illegitimate political restriction on public discourse, we'll also be behaving in a way that is far more improper and unacceptable for the US than it is for China, because we do not hold constitutional republics to the same standards of rule of law and respect for individual rights that we expect from authoritarian regimes.
  - sarchertech 2y ago
    And yet you conveniently leave out the part where clearly the Chinese government desires that TikTok continue to operate in the US (under their control). Denying someone something they want is nearly the definition of punishment. The analogy only works if the US response to banning US social media was to do something similar like banning Russian social media that had no impact on China. As for whether the ban is legitimate or not, The Supreme Court unanimously ruled that it is. We’ve banned foreign governments from owning television stations for decades.
    - Gormo 2y ago
      So, by your way of thinking, if there was a chance that pooping on the floor myself might discourage my dog's bad behavior, I should go right ahead? It's not quite correct to say that the Supreme Court ruled that the ban is legitimate. It narrowly ruled that the immediate first amendment challenge wasn't sufficient to invalidate the law under intermediate scrutiny. The only thing they were evaluating was whether the impact of the ban was biased toward any particular content, which it isn't. They didn't rule on the overall constitutionality of the act, whether its first section amounts to a bill of attainder, whether the forced divestiture would amount to a fifth amendment taking, whether it violated the broader freedom of the press under the first amendment, or anything else. Those questions might well be evaluated later.
NicuCalcea 2y ago
China isn't your dog. What if you invited your neighbour over, and they pooped on your floor, repeatedly. And then they said you're not allowed into their house.
- Gormo 2y ago
  If all of that happened, I still don't think I'd be motivated to poop on my own floor.
  - kelnos 2y ago
    That's fine, because that's not what the US is doing to China.
    - Gormo 2y ago
      No, "pooping on the floor" is the US government is doing to the US, regardless of whether its ultimate aim is to punish China. I am not willing to give the US government discretionary authority over what software I have access to in order to advance its geopolitical ambitions in relation to China.
maeil 2y ago
Did you know that foreign companies are banned from owning more than 25% ownership of a tv and radio broadcast licenses in the US? I'm sure you've spent much effort looking into and trying to repeal those laws too.

rchaud 2y ago

Zuckerberg already tried in 2015, went on a tour, gave obsequious speeches, spoke in Mandarin and asked Xi to give his unborn child an honorary Chinese name. Refused on both occasions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S20BoxH8W9g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S20BoxH8W9g

piyuv 2y ago
Guy really doesn’t have a spine

timewizard 2y ago

Just as soon as they allow the Chinese government censors to control what is and is not available on the platform. How you see his position as different from ours is an astounding result driven by American imperialist propaganda. None of these entities are on your side. Highlighting a false dichotomy does nothing.

juunpp 2y ago
The propaganda works well indeed. People taking sides is perhaps the saddest part of this story since the politics can be well understood with just a little review of history. You put it well in saying that none of the two are on your side. Wake up, sheeple; stand for principles, not one or the other government.

kccqzy 2y ago

Well fifteen years ago Google was available in China. And at that time, while the masses simply used Baidu, among the educated it was well known that Google delivered better results. And that was because Google capitulated to the censors. The government had a direct hotline into the Chinese offices of Google and could demand the search engine immediately ban certain keywords or results. At that time Baidu's censorship was quite a bit more heavy-handed than Google's. It was Google that grew tired of this arrangement and decided to quit. They first moved the operations to Hong Kong, and then later the Chinese government decided to block the Hong Kong version of Google. As a former Google employee, during my employment I found plenty of internal blog posts from the China team at that time about this arrangement. It was amazing to me that a lot of these internal blogs simply weren't deleted because people forgot about it and storage was so cheap.

creato 2y ago
A quick google suggests that in 2008, Google's search market share in China was ~45%. That's pretty significant.

BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago

Could you potentially see an issue with both countries disconnecting their economies and communication networks? As we do this, I worry a war gets easier to start.

eunos 2y ago

When Google and Facebook agree to also base their servers in China and follow Chinese censorship law. You're welcome.