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So the alternative is to defend democracy by letting a foreign authoritarian entity take over your country in the name of (their) freedom? I don’t get how can

So the alternative is to defend democracy by letting a foreign authoritarian entity take over your country in the name of (their) freedom? I don’t get how can Americans be so insecure about themselves and have such fragile trust in what they can achieve as a country. This idea that foreign authoritarian regimes should be respected as much as their own people and system is just baffling.

DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
This ban was precipitated by TikTok refusing to bow to pressure to censor (pro-Palestinian) content that American politicians don't like. The politics of this are exactly the opposite of that you're saying. This is about restricting democratic rights.
- infecto 2y ago
  Do you have evidence of this compared to what is known, that ByteDance China has in-office seats for the CCP? These conspiracies and what-aboutism make no sense to me.
  - DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
    Many American politicians, including the people leading the charge for the ban, have openly said that this is the reason. Senator Mitt Romney put it very bluntly [0]: > "Some wonder why there was such overwhelming support for us to shut down potentially TikTok or other entities of that nature. If you look at the postings on TikTok and the number of mentions of Palestinians, relative to other social media sites - it's overwhelmingly so among TikTok broadcasts." Or maybe Mitt Romney is just another conspiracy theorist? 0. https://www.axios.com/local/salt-lake-city/2024/05/06/senator-romney-antony-blinken-tiktok-ban-israel-palestinian-content https://www.axios.com/local/salt-lake-city/2024/05/06/senato...
    - infecto 2y ago
      None of those 1A arguments held up and the SC decision did not use "count of Palestinians" AFAIK. I am sure some of the initial support was drummed up for reasons like what you mentioned but ultimately that is not why its being banned. But going back to your point, mentioning democratic rights for a CCP app is hilarious.
      - DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
        That's why Mitt Romney thinks it was banned. The people who formulated the ban failed a few times previously, both because they couldn't gain enough political support to push it through and because it was legally shaky. The Gaza issue was what led to overwhelming support for a ban in the US Congress and Senate (as Romney says), and the ban was intentionally formulated in such a way as to try to legally sidestep the First Amendment question (in a highly dubious manner, but the SC isn't going to overrule Congress here). > mentioning democratic rights for a CCP app is hilarious. It's the most popular app in the United States. Calling it a "CCP app" is just braindead. Of course banning the most popular means of expression in a country because the people are expressing themselves in ways that political leaders disapprove of is anti-democratic.
        infecto 2y ago
        All major corporations in mainland China have direct ties to the CCP. To think otherwise is foolish, their business and government are intertwined. At the end of the day all ByteDance china had to do was divest their ownership in the company. I sympathize with you and agree the initial support definitely utilized the conflict in Gaza but it goes beyond the conflict and centers itself around the ability for the CCP to influence how the algorithm works. To not understand how much control the CCP has over mainland entities is surprising.
        DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
        > their business and government are intertwined This completely depends on the company. There's no evidence that TikTok has been used as a Chinese propaganda vehicle, and the issue that led to TikTok being banned in the US was TikTok's refusal to bow to pressure to toe the line on Palestine/Israel. Unlike Facebook, TikTok did not suppress pro-Palestinian content, and that led to broad Congressional support for a ban.
- boringg 2y ago
  Could be - the amount of online commentary when that war broke out was all encompassing. Almost like it was a highly volatile combination of an rightfully angry/scared population and paid information campaign by US foreign adversaries.
  - greenie_beans 2y ago
    have you been on twitter?
WhaleClub 2y ago
The UK and Australia are much more insecure https://x.com/ausvstheagenda/status/1880136652678656311 https://x.com/ausvstheagenda/status/1880136652678656311 https://x.com/PlanetOfMemes/status/1865399407220306313 https://x.com/PlanetOfMemes/status/1865399407220306313
- ruszki 2y ago
  Since the general positive sum game is breaking down all around the world, everybody should feel insecure, and you will be insecure, if you are not already.
- cpursley 2y ago
  Those aren't free countries (as in bill of rights levels of personal guarantees).
t0bia_s 2y ago
"an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" is solution to you? Respect doesn't mean that you have to agree. If you believe that something is wrong, use arguments, educate, inform... It's hard to implement pathological behaviour in well informed and educated society. Fragile society, however, is easier to be manipulated with and lead to hate, violence and wars.
- r33b33 2y ago
  > "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" is solution to you? What's wrong with this solution?
  - peoplefromibiza 2y ago
    [dead]
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - mattxxx 2y ago
    agreeing with the point the question makes here; the game theory of global politics does not work with the same morals that we prescribe individual people
  - Barracoon 2y ago
    It makes the whole world blind
    - cocacola1 2y ago
      No, there'd be one person left with an eye. They could just dodge the last blind person.
  - consteval 2y ago
    It doesn't actually solve anything, rather it makes the baseline lower by hurting everyone. I.e., it's an anti-solution - something that actively makes things worse, and can only make things worse, but masquerades as a solution. An example of an anti-solution is lowering crime by making something that was illegal no longer illegal (see: public transit vs automobiles). Or, reducing the incidence of something by making it illegal while simultaneously increasing it's necessity (see: abortion). Or, solving wage inequality by protesting minimum wage increases.
vulcan1964 2y ago
All "governments" are authoritarian. The USA was founded by authoritarian white slaveowners. So yes, Gen Z and TikTok users will definitely baffle all those who accept US imperialism above all else. Let's be honest: "Democracy" in the USA is and always has been a game for the rich, especially since the 1908s when Reagan and Thatcher decided that China should be the top dog in the world order. People just want to live happily. Simple as that. TikTok gives a lot of people a feeling, a snippet, of a little bit of freedom and connection with others. All US media makes people fearful - FOX "news" is literally just fearmongering for boomers and their children who can't afford homes of their own. CNN and MSNBC is just fear mongering against boomers who watch FOX "news". Facebook/Meta/IG/WhatsApp is an extension of these fears into the virtual world and TikTok offers something better. Jokes on the USA though. RedNOTE is gonna close the cultural divide between America and China and Americans will realize just how far the boomer generation and those who have been elected to uphold boomer beliefs really left younger/current generations behind. China has won technologically and now begins the cultural victory. I can foresee, sadly, that there will be an unnecessary loss of lives in the short term however for both the USA and BRICS nations. Hopefully I wind up being wrong.
- infecto 2y ago
  Lots of hyperbole and feelings but not much evidence. TikTok is not some bastion of freedom, they did win with critical mass and a vastly superior algorithm. All media makes people fearful, you speak so highly of China but have you consumed mainland Chinese media before? It is like Fox on steroids, packed full with stories that paint China as the victor and America as a dangerous and silly country. Calling a victory in technology is laughable, mainland manufacturing is incredible, one of the best in the world. Products in China have caught up and in some spaces exceeded western brands. China is still missing out on innovation in high-tech, thats why they have been caught so frequently trying to steal corporate secrets. RedNOTE is not going to prove anything to americans except the disdain the Chinese have for Americans joining their social network and the level of censorship that exists in a mainland app. It is like you are a propaganda machine and ironic enough it reads just like a mainland Chinese news article. If there was a conflict everyone would lose out. I am surprised anyone would foreshadow it. China unlike Russia seems to still think through the lens of economic interests, I suspect nobody in the current regime would want any type of conflict. While they may have a military its entirely untested both equipment and men.
TiredOfLife 2y ago
> why? Years of TikTok usage
llm_trw 2y ago
If your democracy is so rotten that a few teens dancing can bring it down I have bad news.
- yoz-y 2y ago
  TikTok is much more than “a few teens dancing”, for a huge swath of population it’s how they get their news and how they find stuff.
  - t0bia_s 2y ago
    I though TikTok algorithm won't let you choose what to find.
  - llm_trw 2y ago
    And if their lives weren't a end stage capitalist hell scape those news would have as much effect as Radio Moscow did during the cold war. It is only when a system is failing that it becomes susceptible to destruction by indifference.
    - pxLplt 2y ago
      Two fantastic comments (yours and GP[lim_trw])- accurate summing of the state of affairs.
    - adrianN 2y ago
      Another plausible theory is that the literal billions that have been invested into optimizing content for hyper attention have led to improvements in propaganda methods since Radio Moscow.
    - low_tech_love 2y ago
      So, in summary, you believe that since the USA is on its way down, it should not bother fighting back anymore? You might have a point, though. With the new administration and its explicit focus on short term populism, it’s hard to stand up for anything.
sneak 2y ago
Allowing free publishing isn’t allowing anyone to take over anything.
jdasdf 2y ago
>So the alternative is to defend democracy by letting a foreign authoritarian entity take over your country in the name of (their) freedom? People being convinced to change their countries geopolitical policies seems to me a perfectly legitimate thing to do in a democracy. If the american people would like closer relations to china and vote accordingly that seems to me to be the whole point of democracy. China engaging and supporting that is also a perfectly legitimate means of achieving its goals, no? Or would you prefer that instead of convincing the american people of that, they should instead bribe or coerce their politicians behind closed fdoors?
jfengel 2y ago
Remember that Americans are already at each other's throats. Half the country is literally terrified about what will happen tomorrow. The other half of the country is ecstatic. For at least some of them, they are looking forward to doing exactly what the other half fears. The rest are relieved that they will not have to undergo the terrors and tribulations of the last four years. The country is constantly on a knife edge. It takes only a tiny shift to cause a radical change in the power structure, and good reason to think that power structure will be used against you. It is indeed remarkable that the country has achieved anything at all when it spends so much time cowering. Nor is that new, but modern media seem to give it more immediacy.
- jumpman500 2y ago
  There was only 64% election turnout in 2024. People are not as politically radicalized and polarized as media companies say to increase engagement. Some people are, but the problem is being exaggerated for clicks and views.
  - consteval 2y ago
    > People are not as politically radicalized and polarized as media companies say to increase engagement I disagree based purely off of my own life and experiences. The shift rightward over the past 10 years is palpable. It's not surprising historically at all - the US has always been composed of almost entirely conservative, individualistic attitudes and then little pockets of progressiveness here and there. They never last, rather the hope is just to get as much done as fast as possible in that time frame. Certainly, policy that would be unthinkable 15 years ago is par for the course now. I think that's just undeniable, and speaks to the radicalization of the US.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- cpursley 2y ago
  I'm guessing that you live on one of the coasts and mostly associate with certain classes of people? In the real world, people are not at each others throats. They're mostly interested in talking about their kids, the price of milk, sportsball and debating the best way to prepare briquet. Take a deep breath, we're all gonna be okay.
woooooo 2y ago
I'm struck by the complete lack of confidence in statements like this. We've got the whole world wearing blue jeans and listening to our music, mostly communicating on our tech platforms. English is the default language for international business. One Chinese social media company and its game over? Have some faith in your culture.
ein0p 2y ago
Do you realize that the same exact logic can apply to any US company abroad? Not just social networking, _any_ company. We are everyone else's "geopolitical adversary" too. Or is it "different" and I "don't understand"?
undersuit 2y ago
There must be other options than banning Tiktok or losing to "the enemy".
wonnage 2y ago
You gotta get off Facebook and touch grass man
bgun 2y ago
“Fragile” trust? That trust has been beaten out of us at every turn for an entire generation. There is nothing fragile about American exceptionalism or the dream of achievement; we’ve just been shown repeatedly that we are becoming the third-world bully regime in the eyes of the world and, increasingly, in our own. Every bad thing we’ve been taught to believe about China or Russia, it turns out we do too and often worse. So what loyalty should we have? What has democracy and capitalism done for us but bankrupt our seniors with medical debt and addict our children to iPads and amphetamines? I’d love to be able to trust my government and the American ideal again, but don’t tell me I’m weak for second-guessing the whole con game this century is turning into.
- wilg 2y ago
  the problem is basically your whole worldview is wrong
  - bgun 2y ago
    This feels like a shallow dismissal, and I’d love to understand what you’re trying to communicate in more depth.
- t0bia_s 2y ago
  ”What has democracy and capitalism done for us...” Radicaly increased wealth. I guess you have access to drinking water, food, place to sleep and be warm at cold sessions. It wasn't a standard few decades ago and still it is not fot most in the world. "I’d love to be able to trust my governmen..." Do you really believe that government solve your problems?
  - bgun 2y ago
    Over the last 40 years, China’s version of socialism with state-controlled markets have lifted more people out of poverty than ours. Democracy and capitalism have not benefited me in my lifetime. My taxes go to fund foreign wars and lining the pockets of American oligarchs. “Radically increased wealth”, for who? Government has never solved my problems, only created more. My point is that I would have been doing better under China’s system than ours.

DiogenesKynikos 2y ago

This ban was precipitated by TikTok refusing to bow to pressure to censor (pro-Palestinian) content that American politicians don't like. The politics of this are exactly the opposite of that you're saying. This is about restricting democratic rights.

infecto 2y ago
Do you have evidence of this compared to what is known, that ByteDance China has in-office seats for the CCP? These conspiracies and what-aboutism make no sense to me.
- DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
  Many American politicians, including the people leading the charge for the ban, have openly said that this is the reason. Senator Mitt Romney put it very bluntly [0]: > "Some wonder why there was such overwhelming support for us to shut down potentially TikTok or other entities of that nature. If you look at the postings on TikTok and the number of mentions of Palestinians, relative to other social media sites - it's overwhelmingly so among TikTok broadcasts." Or maybe Mitt Romney is just another conspiracy theorist? 0. https://www.axios.com/local/salt-lake-city/2024/05/06/senator-romney-antony-blinken-tiktok-ban-israel-palestinian-content https://www.axios.com/local/salt-lake-city/2024/05/06/senato...
  - infecto 2y ago
    None of those 1A arguments held up and the SC decision did not use "count of Palestinians" AFAIK. I am sure some of the initial support was drummed up for reasons like what you mentioned but ultimately that is not why its being banned. But going back to your point, mentioning democratic rights for a CCP app is hilarious.
    - DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
      That's why Mitt Romney thinks it was banned. The people who formulated the ban failed a few times previously, both because they couldn't gain enough political support to push it through and because it was legally shaky. The Gaza issue was what led to overwhelming support for a ban in the US Congress and Senate (as Romney says), and the ban was intentionally formulated in such a way as to try to legally sidestep the First Amendment question (in a highly dubious manner, but the SC isn't going to overrule Congress here). > mentioning democratic rights for a CCP app is hilarious. It's the most popular app in the United States. Calling it a "CCP app" is just braindead. Of course banning the most popular means of expression in a country because the people are expressing themselves in ways that political leaders disapprove of is anti-democratic.
      - infecto 2y ago
        All major corporations in mainland China have direct ties to the CCP. To think otherwise is foolish, their business and government are intertwined. At the end of the day all ByteDance china had to do was divest their ownership in the company. I sympathize with you and agree the initial support definitely utilized the conflict in Gaza but it goes beyond the conflict and centers itself around the ability for the CCP to influence how the algorithm works. To not understand how much control the CCP has over mainland entities is surprising.
        DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
        > their business and government are intertwined This completely depends on the company. There's no evidence that TikTok has been used as a Chinese propaganda vehicle, and the issue that led to TikTok being banned in the US was TikTok's refusal to bow to pressure to toe the line on Palestine/Israel. Unlike Facebook, TikTok did not suppress pro-Palestinian content, and that led to broad Congressional support for a ban.
boringg 2y ago
Could be - the amount of online commentary when that war broke out was all encompassing. Almost like it was a highly volatile combination of an rightfully angry/scared population and paid information campaign by US foreign adversaries.
- greenie_beans 2y ago
  have you been on twitter?

WhaleClub 2y ago

The UK and Australia are much more insecure https://x.com/ausvstheagenda/status/1880136652678656311 https://x.com/ausvstheagenda/status/1880136652678656311 https://x.com/PlanetOfMemes/status/1865399407220306313 https://x.com/PlanetOfMemes/status/1865399407220306313

ruszki 2y ago
Since the general positive sum game is breaking down all around the world, everybody should feel insecure, and you will be insecure, if you are not already.
cpursley 2y ago
Those aren't free countries (as in bill of rights levels of personal guarantees).

t0bia_s 2y ago

"an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" is solution to you? Respect doesn't mean that you have to agree. If you believe that something is wrong, use arguments, educate, inform... It's hard to implement pathological behaviour in well informed and educated society. Fragile society, however, is easier to be manipulated with and lead to hate, violence and wars.

r33b33 2y ago
> "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" is solution to you? What's wrong with this solution?
- peoplefromibiza 2y ago
  [dead]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- mattxxx 2y ago
  agreeing with the point the question makes here; the game theory of global politics does not work with the same morals that we prescribe individual people
- Barracoon 2y ago
  It makes the whole world blind
  - cocacola1 2y ago
    No, there'd be one person left with an eye. They could just dodge the last blind person.
- consteval 2y ago
  It doesn't actually solve anything, rather it makes the baseline lower by hurting everyone. I.e., it's an anti-solution - something that actively makes things worse, and can only make things worse, but masquerades as a solution. An example of an anti-solution is lowering crime by making something that was illegal no longer illegal (see: public transit vs automobiles). Or, reducing the incidence of something by making it illegal while simultaneously increasing it's necessity (see: abortion). Or, solving wage inequality by protesting minimum wage increases.

vulcan1964 2y ago

All "governments" are authoritarian. The USA was founded by authoritarian white slaveowners. So yes, Gen Z and TikTok users will definitely baffle all those who accept US imperialism above all else. Let's be honest: "Democracy" in the USA is and always has been a game for the rich, especially since the 1908s when Reagan and Thatcher decided that China should be the top dog in the world order. People just want to live happily. Simple as that. TikTok gives a lot of people a feeling, a snippet, of a little bit of freedom and connection with others. All US media makes people fearful - FOX "news" is literally just fearmongering for boomers and their children who can't afford homes of their own. CNN and MSNBC is just fear mongering against boomers who watch FOX "news". Facebook/Meta/IG/WhatsApp is an extension of these fears into the virtual world and TikTok offers something better. Jokes on the USA though. RedNOTE is gonna close the cultural divide between America and China and Americans will realize just how far the boomer generation and those who have been elected to uphold boomer beliefs really left younger/current generations behind. China has won technologically and now begins the cultural victory. I can foresee, sadly, that there will be an unnecessary loss of lives in the short term however for both the USA and BRICS nations. Hopefully I wind up being wrong.

infecto 2y ago
Lots of hyperbole and feelings but not much evidence. TikTok is not some bastion of freedom, they did win with critical mass and a vastly superior algorithm. All media makes people fearful, you speak so highly of China but have you consumed mainland Chinese media before? It is like Fox on steroids, packed full with stories that paint China as the victor and America as a dangerous and silly country. Calling a victory in technology is laughable, mainland manufacturing is incredible, one of the best in the world. Products in China have caught up and in some spaces exceeded western brands. China is still missing out on innovation in high-tech, thats why they have been caught so frequently trying to steal corporate secrets. RedNOTE is not going to prove anything to americans except the disdain the Chinese have for Americans joining their social network and the level of censorship that exists in a mainland app. It is like you are a propaganda machine and ironic enough it reads just like a mainland Chinese news article. If there was a conflict everyone would lose out. I am surprised anyone would foreshadow it. China unlike Russia seems to still think through the lens of economic interests, I suspect nobody in the current regime would want any type of conflict. While they may have a military its entirely untested both equipment and men.

TiredOfLife 2y ago

> why? Years of TikTok usage

llm_trw 2y ago

If your democracy is so rotten that a few teens dancing can bring it down I have bad news.

yoz-y 2y ago
TikTok is much more than “a few teens dancing”, for a huge swath of population it’s how they get their news and how they find stuff.
- t0bia_s 2y ago
  I though TikTok algorithm won't let you choose what to find.
- llm_trw 2y ago
  And if their lives weren't a end stage capitalist hell scape those news would have as much effect as Radio Moscow did during the cold war. It is only when a system is failing that it becomes susceptible to destruction by indifference.
  - pxLplt 2y ago
    Two fantastic comments (yours and GP[lim_trw])- accurate summing of the state of affairs.
  - adrianN 2y ago
    Another plausible theory is that the literal billions that have been invested into optimizing content for hyper attention have led to improvements in propaganda methods since Radio Moscow.
  - low_tech_love 2y ago
    So, in summary, you believe that since the USA is on its way down, it should not bother fighting back anymore? You might have a point, though. With the new administration and its explicit focus on short term populism, it’s hard to stand up for anything.

sneak 2y ago

Allowing free publishing isn’t allowing anyone to take over anything.

jdasdf 2y ago

>So the alternative is to defend democracy by letting a foreign authoritarian entity take over your country in the name of (their) freedom? People being convinced to change their countries geopolitical policies seems to me a perfectly legitimate thing to do in a democracy. If the american people would like closer relations to china and vote accordingly that seems to me to be the whole point of democracy. China engaging and supporting that is also a perfectly legitimate means of achieving its goals, no? Or would you prefer that instead of convincing the american people of that, they should instead bribe or coerce their politicians behind closed fdoors?

jfengel 2y ago

Remember that Americans are already at each other's throats. Half the country is literally terrified about what will happen tomorrow. The other half of the country is ecstatic. For at least some of them, they are looking forward to doing exactly what the other half fears. The rest are relieved that they will not have to undergo the terrors and tribulations of the last four years. The country is constantly on a knife edge. It takes only a tiny shift to cause a radical change in the power structure, and good reason to think that power structure will be used against you. It is indeed remarkable that the country has achieved anything at all when it spends so much time cowering. Nor is that new, but modern media seem to give it more immediacy.

jumpman500 2y ago
There was only 64% election turnout in 2024. People are not as politically radicalized and polarized as media companies say to increase engagement. Some people are, but the problem is being exaggerated for clicks and views.
- consteval 2y ago
  > People are not as politically radicalized and polarized as media companies say to increase engagement I disagree based purely off of my own life and experiences. The shift rightward over the past 10 years is palpable. It's not surprising historically at all - the US has always been composed of almost entirely conservative, individualistic attitudes and then little pockets of progressiveness here and there. They never last, rather the hope is just to get as much done as fast as possible in that time frame. Certainly, policy that would be unthinkable 15 years ago is par for the course now. I think that's just undeniable, and speaks to the radicalization of the US.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
cpursley 2y ago
I'm guessing that you live on one of the coasts and mostly associate with certain classes of people? In the real world, people are not at each others throats. They're mostly interested in talking about their kids, the price of milk, sportsball and debating the best way to prepare briquet. Take a deep breath, we're all gonna be okay.

woooooo 2y ago

I'm struck by the complete lack of confidence in statements like this. We've got the whole world wearing blue jeans and listening to our music, mostly communicating on our tech platforms. English is the default language for international business. One Chinese social media company and its game over? Have some faith in your culture.

ein0p 2y ago

Do you realize that the same exact logic can apply to any US company abroad? Not just social networking, _any_ company. We are everyone else's "geopolitical adversary" too. Or is it "different" and I "don't understand"?

undersuit 2y ago

There must be other options than banning Tiktok or losing to "the enemy".

wonnage 2y ago

You gotta get off Facebook and touch grass man

bgun 2y ago

“Fragile” trust? That trust has been beaten out of us at every turn for an entire generation. There is nothing fragile about American exceptionalism or the dream of achievement; we’ve just been shown repeatedly that we are becoming the third-world bully regime in the eyes of the world and, increasingly, in our own. Every bad thing we’ve been taught to believe about China or Russia, it turns out we do too and often worse. So what loyalty should we have? What has democracy and capitalism done for us but bankrupt our seniors with medical debt and addict our children to iPads and amphetamines? I’d love to be able to trust my government and the American ideal again, but don’t tell me I’m weak for second-guessing the whole con game this century is turning into.

wilg 2y ago
the problem is basically your whole worldview is wrong
- bgun 2y ago
  This feels like a shallow dismissal, and I’d love to understand what you’re trying to communicate in more depth.
t0bia_s 2y ago
”What has democracy and capitalism done for us...” Radicaly increased wealth. I guess you have access to drinking water, food, place to sleep and be warm at cold sessions. It wasn't a standard few decades ago and still it is not fot most in the world. "I’d love to be able to trust my governmen..." Do you really believe that government solve your problems?
- bgun 2y ago
  Over the last 40 years, China’s version of socialism with state-controlled markets have lifted more people out of poverty than ours. Democracy and capitalism have not benefited me in my lifetime. My taxes go to fund foreign wars and lining the pockets of American oligarchs. “Radically increased wealth”, for who? Government has never solved my problems, only created more. My point is that I would have been doing better under China’s system than ours.