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I sometimes chuckle that most of the cool Lexuses are now Priuses under the hood! But that’s a good thing. I own a Toyota Corolla hybrid myself, and hybrids ar

I sometimes chuckle that most of the cool Lexuses are now Priuses under the hood! But that’s a good thing. I own a Toyota Corolla hybrid myself, and hybrids are one of those things that I can say I’ve completely changed my mind about. I used to dislike the idea of hybrids, because I assumed that the overall system complexity must be higher than either an ICE, or an EV. And I’m a sucker for simple systems, so I thought it’s either EV, or nothing. Then I looked into how hybrids work. Specifically Toyota hybrids. And came away totally amazed. It’s an amazing system, and much simpler than a traditional ICE car. It doesn’t really have a gearbox, or a clutch, or a starter. The engine is a normal atmospheric engine, so no turbines, overcompression, and the issues that come with it. Furthermore, the engine is typically configured to use the Atkinson cycle, which puts less stress on it. And, the engine has a chain drive, so no belts to change, and by design gets stressed a lot less than in a traditional ICE, because the stop-start load is carried by the electric motor. Also, it can’t really have trouble starting in cold weather, much like an EV. All of that boils down to crazy reliability. I’m at a point where if I’m looking for a car that uses fuel, it’s only cars that use the Toyota hybrid tech (or similar) that I’m looking at. At the moment it’s just Toyota, Lexus, most Ford hybrids (but not all). Other companies have hybrids that are liable to my original concerns about massively increased complexity. As an example, VW hybrids have an electric motor within their DSG gearbox. So you have all the complexity of their modern ICEs (turbines, DSG, whatnot) plus additional hybrid related complexity.

Tade0 2y ago
For the reason you stated in the last paragraph I eventually opted against getting a Hyundai Ioniq in favour of a Toyota. The Hyundai felt like driving a regular automatic, so it would occasionally lunge awkwardly and spin the engine in situations where Toyotas switch to EV mode. Sure it had better fuel economy, but I can't stand having a car not react immediately to my input or make noise when it shouldn't.
- jgilias 2y ago
  To be fair, it did take some time for me to get used to how a hybrid sounds. It’s fine when not driving aggressively. When you floor it though, it does feel weird when the engine jumps to the highest safe revs and stays there. That’s a small price to pay for reliability and smooth power delivery though.
  - z3dd 2y ago
    check out civic 11 gen, they are almost indistinguishable from regular ice cars when sitting inside
    - jgilias 2y ago
      Does it have a power split device? E.g., a planetary gearbox?
      - Toutouxc 2y ago
        No, it’s a different system than what Toyota uses: https://global.honda/en/tech/Honda_eHEV_next_generation/ https://global.honda/en/tech/Honda_eHEV_next_generation/
        jgilias 2y ago
        Thanks!
        01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
        Looks like a series hybrid with a clutch that bypasses the generator for a high-efficiency overdrive gear. It's simpler than the planetary gear system in a Prius, but they must have made the drive motor (equivalent to MG2 in Prius diagrams) bigger if they never combine power from both MG2 and the ICE. Or, that's not shown in the diagram.
  - esalman 2y ago
    Are you talking about how the CVT transmission sounds?
    - jgilias 2y ago
      Not sure exactly what you mean. As in, hybrids don’t have a CVT transmission, one with belts and the thing that changes diameter to achieve variability. Haven’t had one, but heard only bad things about those. But yes, in that the power transmission is variable (e-CVT, right?), and that sounds a bit weird. You’ve spent so much time hearing how the engine gets louder with acceleration that it feels weird when the engine behaves slightly differently. But again, that doesn’t bother me enough to buy a less reliable system.
- dkarl 2y ago
  > I can't stand having a car not react immediately to my input I'm spoiled from years of Priuses now, and driving gas cars, even fancy and expensive ones, feels bizarrely primitive. The lag between the pedal and the response, and the complex relationship between the input and the response, feels antiquated and arcane.
  - bardak 2y ago
    I had a loaner Ford Bronco Sport when I was having some maintenance on my hybrid. It had a 8 speed transmission and a turbo. Going from the super smooth eCTV to a vehicle that would jerk from shift changes/turbo when you just thought about touching the gas pedal has has put me off buying a vehicle with a normal transmission
  - Tade0 2y ago
    A while ago I rented a regular car and what bugged me was all the additional vibration associated with parts grinding and rolling against each other. Also at least once I almost went "woah, horsie" as the car lunged forward because I tapped the accelerator a moment after it shifted to a lower gear without me noticing. It used to be even worse. I had an opportunity to drive a 2005 BMW 7 series in a city where the speed limit was 30km/h. Unfortunately the gearbox was from a time way before traffic calming etc. went mainstream, so it couldn't decide which gear to pick. I ended up switching to manual gear selection mode.
    - 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
      > it couldn't decide which gear to pick. I haven't felt that since I've been driving my CVT ICE for so long. Then again, a coworker told me the CVT is likely to break before 100,000 miles. So.... thinking of buying a Prius. I love Priuses.
      - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
        Honda CVT is supposed to be pretty solid if that’s what you have. Other CVTs are less solid, or so I hear.
dtgriscom 2y ago
Not a challenge, but a plea: where's your source(s) for this? I'm about where you were, but would love to know more about the internals so I can make an informed choice when my current (ICE) car dies.
- jgilias 2y ago
  Take a look at this: http://eahart.com/prius/psd/ http://eahart.com/prius/psd/ Also, YouTube helps. Search for “Power Split Device” or “e-CVT”. Regarding other hybrid tech, it’s a bit of a crapshoot. I basically use ChatGPT with search enabled to have sources, and then ask how the system works. It’s never in the marketing materials, I guess most don’t care.
- MindSpunk 2y ago
  The wikipedia page is quite in depth [0] but is quite dense and took me a few goes to understand. They're fascinating to understand, and they really are mechanically simpler than a standard ICE + gearbox drive line. I got nerd sniped one day figuring out how my Toyota Crown "gearbox" worked only to discover it doesn't really have one. They don't even have a real neutral gear, the wheels are always mechanically linked to the engine. They require much more active computer control to work though so they aren't logically simpler in my opinion, but mechanical simplicity is what makes the biggest difference. There are certainly better more approachable sources though so I leave this as an option as the info is there, but can take a moment to understand. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive
  - jgilias 2y ago
    I’m with you in general. Though, with the amount of electronics and “computer-complexity” that modern ICE cars have, I’m not sure there’s a meaningful difference!
  - Gibbon1 2y ago
    The way I think of it comes from the old ME degree I got. You can analyze assemblies by the number of degrees of freedom. Three degrees of freedom, like three linkages pinned at the corners is a triangle and the relative positions of each element are fixed. Four axis, like a square pinned at the corners if you know the relative position of two elements you know the position of the others. This is the basis for most traditional machines. Five axis is floppy. And usually avoided traditionally. The synergy drive is a five axis machine mechanically. But has two electric motor generators. By varying the speed of the motors you can control the gear ratio of the mechanical path. Since the motor speeds are indignantly variable so is the mechanical path. You end up with continuously variable transmission with a mechanical power path and an electric one in parallel. And it doesn't suck like pure mechanical ones. Totally genius.
lwhsiao 2y ago
Naive question: aren't belts lower maintenance than chains, and don't let last longer? Why doesn't a engine with a chain drive require equal or more replacements?
- jgilias 2y ago
  Umm.. No and no. Belts need to be changed at some service interval, usually 100k SI units. If you don’t do it, a ripped belt wreaks havoc on the engine. Chains are typically installed for the life of the engine, and need to be changed only if it’s a problem. A caveat though. I used to have a Škoda Fabia with a chain drive, and I did end up changing it, as it started making the tell-tale sound when stop-go. In the context of hybrids though, I fully expect that chain to last the lifetime of the engine. The engine is under significantly less load than in a traditional ICE, so less stress on the chain. Also, for 100k mileage, the motor-hours that the engine has worked are less than in an ICE due to the engine regularly being off.
- analog31 2y ago
  Amusingly, my 1995 Saturn had a timing chain, and the chain skipped a tooth on its last day, at roughly 60k miles. Now, there wasn't necessarily anything wrong with the chain per se but it was the end of a sequence of failures involving the engine design. On all of our other cars (Toyota), the belts needed to be serviced at X miles, but it was actually a cheap and quick procedure.
- frosted-flakes 2y ago
  Unlike most bicycle chains, timung chains are permanently lubricated with filtered oil. Belts are not.
  - bityard 2y ago
    Ford and a few other makers have been using oil-immersed timing belts lately. They quite reliably fail after the car's warranty is up but well before the rest of the car is junk.
    - 2y ago
saturn8601 2y ago
>I’m at a point where if I’m looking for a car that uses fuel, it’s only cars that use the Toyota hybrid tech (or similar) that I’m looking at. At the moment it’s just Toyota, Lexus, most Ford hybrids (but not all). Don't forget the Mazda CX-50 Hybrid that was just released. Using the Toyota Hybrid from the RAV4 with the elegance and beauty of Mazda design.
- Kon-Peki 2y ago
  The non-hybrid version of the CX-50 is rated for quite good fuel economy. I encourage you to do the math on your own and check my results: it is unlikely that a buyer would ever save money by getting the hybrid option considering that they will likely keep it for no more than 7 years and that the non-hybrid will have larger discounts than the hybrid.
loeg 2y ago
I wish Toyota would make enough Siennas to satisfy demand. Instead, there's are long wait lists at dealers.
- jgilias 2y ago
  I wish they just sold Siennas in Europe… :hide_the_pain:
  - epolanski 2y ago
    We don't even get Camry in Italy, it's just Yaris, Corolla, Aygo and suvs
- datavirtue 2y ago
  It's the only good minivan in exsistance.
- Kon-Peki 2y ago
  There is only one factory, and it also makes the Highlander, Grand Highlander, and Lexus TX. The Sienna would need to become a lot more profitable for Toyota to reduce production of the other 3 to make room for more Siennas.
  - loeg 2y ago
    They could raise the price if they wanted it to be more profitable! Dealers already exploit the long wait list to do so in a way that doesn’t pass through to Toyota.
    - Kon-Peki 2y ago
      I’m in a large metro area; when I go to the Toyota website and look at inventory within 20 miles, I see 1 Sienna that is not in transit and not sale pending. That’s across 9 dealerships! By contrast, for the new Land Cruiser I am seeing 31 vehicles that are not in transit and not sale pending. On dealer lots. Most of them have $3k+ discounts listed! 12 Corolla hybrids; 24 Camrys. 87 Tacomas!!! I have no idea what Toyota’s strategy with the Sienna is.
usrusr 2y ago
I would not call a CVT "not a gearbox". Were Audis equipped with their multitronic option (not in any way related to hybrid or BEV) "cars without a gearbox"?
- cyberax 2y ago
  A traditional CVT is a different beast. Prius is more accurately described as having a power-split gearbox that can dynamically split the power between the gasoline engine and the electric motor.
- jgilias 2y ago
  Yeah, I’d say “not a gearbox”. A gearbox to me is something where there are actual gears engaging and disengaging leading to wear and tear. Doesn’t matter what kind of fancy electronics are then used to hide the mechanical operation from me. A mechanical CVT with belts and pulleys with changing diameters is even worse. What the hybrids (e-CVT ones) have though is basically a planetary gear set, where the gears are put together at the factory, and stay there for the life of the car. To me that’s not a gearbox. At least not in the traditional sense. Transmission sure.
  - usrusr 2y ago
    To me the key element is that it can run different transmission ratios: wether that's in discrete steps or a continuous ramp, that's an implementation detail. BEV (most of them) don't have that, the Prius has. When I read GP post my (surprised) impression from the "no gearbox" claim was that the Prius started as a serial hybrid. (it did not)
    - numpad0 2y ago
      Is THS actually capable of varying transmission ratio? I thought it can modulate resistance but not actually change gear ratio.
      - jgilias 2y ago
philwelch 2y ago
I used to drive a Prius until the hybrid battery system died, and the quote to replace it was a significant fraction of the value of the entire vehicle. I’ve driven ICE ever since. My goal is usually to drive my vehicle all the way into the ground, and I guess that’s what happened to my Prius except it happened around if not before 150,000 miles.
- syndicatedjelly 2y ago
  So when your engine eventually fails in your ICE car and costs many thousands to replace, will you return to EVs?
  - philwelch 2y ago
    Depends on how many miles are on it.
    - syndicatedjelly 2y ago
      Smarty!
- timbit42 2y ago
  When my Prius's hybrid battery died, I swapped out the two bad cells (out of 28) for good ones. Cost of parts and labour: $300.
  - jgilias 2y ago
    Did you do it at a dealership, at a non-affiliated garage, or yourself? I could see how there could be situations when someone tries to sell you into changing all the cells, even when that’s not necessary.
    - timbit42 2y ago
      My trusted mechanic, my second cousin did it for me. The only difficult part was lifting the traction battery.
_yb2s 2y ago
The Prius system is an excellent design, but as someone that loves driving, it just feels and drives awful- little tactile or audible feedback on any of the controls, and really unresponsive to inputs- arguably dangerously so. My regular daily driver is an old Porsche Boxster, and by comparison the Prius feels like I’m driving a dishwasher or playing a cheap arcade game- it will get you there reliably but it’s just not any fun. Life is too short for me not to enjoy the time I have to spend driving. My sister has an Audi A3 e-tron hybrid (basically an upscale VW Golf) that is extremely fun to drive, but also a very complex drivetrain and engine. I think a pure EV with a small range extender not connected to the drivetrain mechanically- like the BMW i3 REX is the way to go. It’s even simpler and lighter than the Prius system, allowing for a much larger battery and more powerful electric motor.
- epolanski 2y ago
  It's fine to demand more from a car, but to most of us it has to move us from point a to b.
  - _yb2s 2y ago
    I honestly never quite understood this perspective or why it's so popular... in general I try to always find ways to do normal life things a little weird, or make it a little more challenging, fun, and memorable- and try to break up the routine drudgery. Even just getting groceries can be a fun adventure with my kid if we put the top down on the Porsche, play some music we love, and maybe go to a weird store that targets a different culture, or has weird surplus/unsold items. Doing things 'weird' usually makes them cheaper and less crowded/faster as well- as a result of less demand.
    - pandemic_region 2y ago
      Where do you put the groceries in a Porsche?
      - _yb2s 2y ago
        The Boxster is mid-engined so there is no back seat, but a usable trunk at each end. The front trunk is takes up the entire space of a normal engine bay, and is surprisingly massive for how small the car is, because it is very deep. Overall the Boxster is a surprisingly practical car- it was very cheap (cheaper than an old Prius of the same age) but now appreciating in value with age, can use a 3+ carpool lane with 2 people, is tiny so easy to park anywhere, and it is actually very reliable and low maintenance.
numpad0 2y ago
Can't agree more, I can't understand why any car person would not be excited about THS II system anymore ever since its executive summary finally clicked, other than because that Prius as a product used to be so badly designed until Tesla started seriously threatening Toyota. If only Toyota made bunch of toy models for THS and built couple 2-door hybrids so that more people would get it. I suppose it's a case of innovator's dilemma, but it's so unfortunate.
l8rlump 2y ago
See here for a counterpoint on hybrids putting less stress on their engines: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eC5FFoCq4s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eC5FFoCq4s ("It Turns Out, Hybrids Are Really Hard On Engines")
- alternatex 2y ago
  Is that a counterpoint considering the conclusion of the video is that Toyota has done the things necessary to mitigate the issues?
spicybbq 2y ago
I had an Accord hybrid and it did not have a transmission at all. There was a clutch and a single gear, which engaged over about 45 mph. Otherwise, the vehicle was propelled by an electric motor. The design, as far as I know, is significantly different than what Toyota uses. Having no transmission plus very little brake wear due to regen breaking felt like a good tradeoff. https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-cars/a34667856/the-updated-2021-honda-accord-hybrid-refines-its-transmission-free-powertrain/ https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-cars/a34667856/the-updat... https://hondanews.com/en-US/honda-automobiles/releases/release-1503019bd8a757ea08267d7944378955-honda-two-motor-hybrid-electric-system https://hondanews.com/en-US/honda-automobiles/releases/relea...
juanpicardo 2y ago
I was also worried about my wrong perception of hybrids being too complex. I recommend people to check on how e-CVT transmissions work, they are quite amazing and simple. I also have now an hybrid Corolla (the station wagon version the US does not get. Because we all now Station wagons are the superior form of car.)

Tade0 2y ago

For the reason you stated in the last paragraph I eventually opted against getting a Hyundai Ioniq in favour of a Toyota. The Hyundai felt like driving a regular automatic, so it would occasionally lunge awkwardly and spin the engine in situations where Toyotas switch to EV mode. Sure it had better fuel economy, but I can't stand having a car not react immediately to my input or make noise when it shouldn't.

jgilias 2y ago
To be fair, it did take some time for me to get used to how a hybrid sounds. It’s fine when not driving aggressively. When you floor it though, it does feel weird when the engine jumps to the highest safe revs and stays there. That’s a small price to pay for reliability and smooth power delivery though.
- z3dd 2y ago
  check out civic 11 gen, they are almost indistinguishable from regular ice cars when sitting inside
  - jgilias 2y ago
    Does it have a power split device? E.g., a planetary gearbox?
    - Toutouxc 2y ago
      No, it’s a different system than what Toyota uses: https://global.honda/en/tech/Honda_eHEV_next_generation/ https://global.honda/en/tech/Honda_eHEV_next_generation/
      - jgilias 2y ago
        Thanks!
      - 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
        Looks like a series hybrid with a clutch that bypasses the generator for a high-efficiency overdrive gear. It's simpler than the planetary gear system in a Prius, but they must have made the drive motor (equivalent to MG2 in Prius diagrams) bigger if they never combine power from both MG2 and the ICE. Or, that's not shown in the diagram.
- esalman 2y ago
  Are you talking about how the CVT transmission sounds?
  - jgilias 2y ago
    Not sure exactly what you mean. As in, hybrids don’t have a CVT transmission, one with belts and the thing that changes diameter to achieve variability. Haven’t had one, but heard only bad things about those. But yes, in that the power transmission is variable (e-CVT, right?), and that sounds a bit weird. You’ve spent so much time hearing how the engine gets louder with acceleration that it feels weird when the engine behaves slightly differently. But again, that doesn’t bother me enough to buy a less reliable system.
dkarl 2y ago
> I can't stand having a car not react immediately to my input I'm spoiled from years of Priuses now, and driving gas cars, even fancy and expensive ones, feels bizarrely primitive. The lag between the pedal and the response, and the complex relationship between the input and the response, feels antiquated and arcane.
- bardak 2y ago
  I had a loaner Ford Bronco Sport when I was having some maintenance on my hybrid. It had a 8 speed transmission and a turbo. Going from the super smooth eCTV to a vehicle that would jerk from shift changes/turbo when you just thought about touching the gas pedal has has put me off buying a vehicle with a normal transmission
- Tade0 2y ago
  A while ago I rented a regular car and what bugged me was all the additional vibration associated with parts grinding and rolling against each other. Also at least once I almost went "woah, horsie" as the car lunged forward because I tapped the accelerator a moment after it shifted to a lower gear without me noticing. It used to be even worse. I had an opportunity to drive a 2005 BMW 7 series in a city where the speed limit was 30km/h. Unfortunately the gearbox was from a time way before traffic calming etc. went mainstream, so it couldn't decide which gear to pick. I ended up switching to manual gear selection mode.
  - 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
    > it couldn't decide which gear to pick. I haven't felt that since I've been driving my CVT ICE for so long. Then again, a coworker told me the CVT is likely to break before 100,000 miles. So.... thinking of buying a Prius. I love Priuses.
    - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
      Honda CVT is supposed to be pretty solid if that’s what you have. Other CVTs are less solid, or so I hear.

dtgriscom 2y ago

Not a challenge, but a plea: where's your source(s) for this? I'm about where you were, but would love to know more about the internals so I can make an informed choice when my current (ICE) car dies.

jgilias 2y ago
Take a look at this: http://eahart.com/prius/psd/ http://eahart.com/prius/psd/ Also, YouTube helps. Search for “Power Split Device” or “e-CVT”. Regarding other hybrid tech, it’s a bit of a crapshoot. I basically use ChatGPT with search enabled to have sources, and then ask how the system works. It’s never in the marketing materials, I guess most don’t care.
MindSpunk 2y ago
The wikipedia page is quite in depth [0] but is quite dense and took me a few goes to understand. They're fascinating to understand, and they really are mechanically simpler than a standard ICE + gearbox drive line. I got nerd sniped one day figuring out how my Toyota Crown "gearbox" worked only to discover it doesn't really have one. They don't even have a real neutral gear, the wheels are always mechanically linked to the engine. They require much more active computer control to work though so they aren't logically simpler in my opinion, but mechanical simplicity is what makes the biggest difference. There are certainly better more approachable sources though so I leave this as an option as the info is there, but can take a moment to understand. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive
- jgilias 2y ago
  I’m with you in general. Though, with the amount of electronics and “computer-complexity” that modern ICE cars have, I’m not sure there’s a meaningful difference!
- Gibbon1 2y ago
  The way I think of it comes from the old ME degree I got. You can analyze assemblies by the number of degrees of freedom. Three degrees of freedom, like three linkages pinned at the corners is a triangle and the relative positions of each element are fixed. Four axis, like a square pinned at the corners if you know the relative position of two elements you know the position of the others. This is the basis for most traditional machines. Five axis is floppy. And usually avoided traditionally. The synergy drive is a five axis machine mechanically. But has two electric motor generators. By varying the speed of the motors you can control the gear ratio of the mechanical path. Since the motor speeds are indignantly variable so is the mechanical path. You end up with continuously variable transmission with a mechanical power path and an electric one in parallel. And it doesn't suck like pure mechanical ones. Totally genius.

lwhsiao 2y ago

Naive question: aren't belts lower maintenance than chains, and don't let last longer? Why doesn't a engine with a chain drive require equal or more replacements?

jgilias 2y ago
Umm.. No and no. Belts need to be changed at some service interval, usually 100k SI units. If you don’t do it, a ripped belt wreaks havoc on the engine. Chains are typically installed for the life of the engine, and need to be changed only if it’s a problem. A caveat though. I used to have a Škoda Fabia with a chain drive, and I did end up changing it, as it started making the tell-tale sound when stop-go. In the context of hybrids though, I fully expect that chain to last the lifetime of the engine. The engine is under significantly less load than in a traditional ICE, so less stress on the chain. Also, for 100k mileage, the motor-hours that the engine has worked are less than in an ICE due to the engine regularly being off.
analog31 2y ago
Amusingly, my 1995 Saturn had a timing chain, and the chain skipped a tooth on its last day, at roughly 60k miles. Now, there wasn't necessarily anything wrong with the chain per se but it was the end of a sequence of failures involving the engine design. On all of our other cars (Toyota), the belts needed to be serviced at X miles, but it was actually a cheap and quick procedure.
frosted-flakes 2y ago
Unlike most bicycle chains, timung chains are permanently lubricated with filtered oil. Belts are not.
- bityard 2y ago
  Ford and a few other makers have been using oil-immersed timing belts lately. They quite reliably fail after the car's warranty is up but well before the rest of the car is junk.
  - 2y ago

saturn8601 2y ago

>I’m at a point where if I’m looking for a car that uses fuel, it’s only cars that use the Toyota hybrid tech (or similar) that I’m looking at. At the moment it’s just Toyota, Lexus, most Ford hybrids (but not all). Don't forget the Mazda CX-50 Hybrid that was just released. Using the Toyota Hybrid from the RAV4 with the elegance and beauty of Mazda design.

Kon-Peki 2y ago
The non-hybrid version of the CX-50 is rated for quite good fuel economy. I encourage you to do the math on your own and check my results: it is unlikely that a buyer would ever save money by getting the hybrid option considering that they will likely keep it for no more than 7 years and that the non-hybrid will have larger discounts than the hybrid.

loeg 2y ago

I wish Toyota would make enough Siennas to satisfy demand. Instead, there's are long wait lists at dealers.

jgilias 2y ago
I wish they just sold Siennas in Europe… :hide_the_pain:
- epolanski 2y ago
  We don't even get Camry in Italy, it's just Yaris, Corolla, Aygo and suvs
datavirtue 2y ago
It's the only good minivan in exsistance.
Kon-Peki 2y ago
There is only one factory, and it also makes the Highlander, Grand Highlander, and Lexus TX. The Sienna would need to become a lot more profitable for Toyota to reduce production of the other 3 to make room for more Siennas.
- loeg 2y ago
  They could raise the price if they wanted it to be more profitable! Dealers already exploit the long wait list to do so in a way that doesn’t pass through to Toyota.
  - Kon-Peki 2y ago
    I’m in a large metro area; when I go to the Toyota website and look at inventory within 20 miles, I see 1 Sienna that is not in transit and not sale pending. That’s across 9 dealerships! By contrast, for the new Land Cruiser I am seeing 31 vehicles that are not in transit and not sale pending. On dealer lots. Most of them have $3k+ discounts listed! 12 Corolla hybrids; 24 Camrys. 87 Tacomas!!! I have no idea what Toyota’s strategy with the Sienna is.

usrusr 2y ago

I would not call a CVT "not a gearbox". Were Audis equipped with their multitronic option (not in any way related to hybrid or BEV) "cars without a gearbox"?

cyberax 2y ago
A traditional CVT is a different beast. Prius is more accurately described as having a power-split gearbox that can dynamically split the power between the gasoline engine and the electric motor.
jgilias 2y ago
Yeah, I’d say “not a gearbox”. A gearbox to me is something where there are actual gears engaging and disengaging leading to wear and tear. Doesn’t matter what kind of fancy electronics are then used to hide the mechanical operation from me. A mechanical CVT with belts and pulleys with changing diameters is even worse. What the hybrids (e-CVT ones) have though is basically a planetary gear set, where the gears are put together at the factory, and stay there for the life of the car. To me that’s not a gearbox. At least not in the traditional sense. Transmission sure.
- usrusr 2y ago
  To me the key element is that it can run different transmission ratios: wether that's in discrete steps or a continuous ramp, that's an implementation detail. BEV (most of them) don't have that, the Prius has. When I read GP post my (surprised) impression from the "no gearbox" claim was that the Prius started as a serial hybrid. (it did not)
  - numpad0 2y ago
    Is THS actually capable of varying transmission ratio? I thought it can modulate resistance but not actually change gear ratio.
    - jgilias 2y ago

philwelch 2y ago

I used to drive a Prius until the hybrid battery system died, and the quote to replace it was a significant fraction of the value of the entire vehicle. I’ve driven ICE ever since. My goal is usually to drive my vehicle all the way into the ground, and I guess that’s what happened to my Prius except it happened around if not before 150,000 miles.

syndicatedjelly 2y ago
So when your engine eventually fails in your ICE car and costs many thousands to replace, will you return to EVs?
- philwelch 2y ago
  Depends on how many miles are on it.
  - syndicatedjelly 2y ago
    Smarty!
timbit42 2y ago
When my Prius's hybrid battery died, I swapped out the two bad cells (out of 28) for good ones. Cost of parts and labour: $300.
- jgilias 2y ago
  Did you do it at a dealership, at a non-affiliated garage, or yourself? I could see how there could be situations when someone tries to sell you into changing all the cells, even when that’s not necessary.
  - timbit42 2y ago
    My trusted mechanic, my second cousin did it for me. The only difficult part was lifting the traction battery.

_yb2s 2y ago

The Prius system is an excellent design, but as someone that loves driving, it just feels and drives awful- little tactile or audible feedback on any of the controls, and really unresponsive to inputs- arguably dangerously so. My regular daily driver is an old Porsche Boxster, and by comparison the Prius feels like I’m driving a dishwasher or playing a cheap arcade game- it will get you there reliably but it’s just not any fun. Life is too short for me not to enjoy the time I have to spend driving. My sister has an Audi A3 e-tron hybrid (basically an upscale VW Golf) that is extremely fun to drive, but also a very complex drivetrain and engine. I think a pure EV with a small range extender not connected to the drivetrain mechanically- like the BMW i3 REX is the way to go. It’s even simpler and lighter than the Prius system, allowing for a much larger battery and more powerful electric motor.

epolanski 2y ago
It's fine to demand more from a car, but to most of us it has to move us from point a to b.
- _yb2s 2y ago
  I honestly never quite understood this perspective or why it's so popular... in general I try to always find ways to do normal life things a little weird, or make it a little more challenging, fun, and memorable- and try to break up the routine drudgery. Even just getting groceries can be a fun adventure with my kid if we put the top down on the Porsche, play some music we love, and maybe go to a weird store that targets a different culture, or has weird surplus/unsold items. Doing things 'weird' usually makes them cheaper and less crowded/faster as well- as a result of less demand.
  - pandemic_region 2y ago
    Where do you put the groceries in a Porsche?
    - _yb2s 2y ago
      The Boxster is mid-engined so there is no back seat, but a usable trunk at each end. The front trunk is takes up the entire space of a normal engine bay, and is surprisingly massive for how small the car is, because it is very deep. Overall the Boxster is a surprisingly practical car- it was very cheap (cheaper than an old Prius of the same age) but now appreciating in value with age, can use a 3+ carpool lane with 2 people, is tiny so easy to park anywhere, and it is actually very reliable and low maintenance.

numpad0 2y ago

Can't agree more, I can't understand why any car person would not be excited about THS II system anymore ever since its executive summary finally clicked, other than because that Prius as a product used to be so badly designed until Tesla started seriously threatening Toyota. If only Toyota made bunch of toy models for THS and built couple 2-door hybrids so that more people would get it. I suppose it's a case of innovator's dilemma, but it's so unfortunate.

l8rlump 2y ago

See here for a counterpoint on hybrids putting less stress on their engines: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eC5FFoCq4s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eC5FFoCq4s ("It Turns Out, Hybrids Are Really Hard On Engines")

alternatex 2y ago
Is that a counterpoint considering the conclusion of the video is that Toyota has done the things necessary to mitigate the issues?

spicybbq 2y ago

I had an Accord hybrid and it did not have a transmission at all. There was a clutch and a single gear, which engaged over about 45 mph. Otherwise, the vehicle was propelled by an electric motor. The design, as far as I know, is significantly different than what Toyota uses. Having no transmission plus very little brake wear due to regen breaking felt like a good tradeoff. https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-cars/a34667856/the-updated-2021-honda-accord-hybrid-refines-its-transmission-free-powertrain/ https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-cars/a34667856/the-updat... https://hondanews.com/en-US/honda-automobiles/releases/release-1503019bd8a757ea08267d7944378955-honda-two-motor-hybrid-electric-system https://hondanews.com/en-US/honda-automobiles/releases/relea...

juanpicardo 2y ago

I was also worried about my wrong perception of hybrids being too complex. I recommend people to check on how e-CVT transmissions work, they are quite amazing and simple. I also have now an hybrid Corolla (the station wagon version the US does not get. Because we all now Station wagons are the superior form of car.)