5 ms·

Hands-On Graphics Without X11

166 points by ingve 2y ago

pjmlp 2y ago
On a parallel note, this brought memories of SVGALib. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SVGALib https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SVGALib
- keyle 2y ago
  Never heard of it before, interesting!
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    Yeah, it was a long time ago that it mattered, grey dog over here.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- lizknope 2y ago
  I remember running "sdoom" instead of "xdoom" on Linux. It did seem faster on sdoom using SVGAlib.
ykonstant 2y ago
Very nice, I am very interested in raw framebuffer graphics and applications.
- mysterydip 2y ago
  Check this out: https://github.com/vvaltchev/tfblib https://github.com/vvaltchev/tfblib It worked well for a hobby project. I had issues on certain specific displays I think due to the color depth requirement.
arghwhat 2y ago
These interfaces can be cute to play with, but there's a reason that fbdev is deprecated on Linux - it's not a good interface outside toy examples. wscons may be more powerful, but I don't think it can be used to fully enable modern accelerated display devices, although do correct me if I'm wrong. Despite some confusion in terminology, modern interfaces also operate on frame buffers, but with an API for switching them out atomically. Likewise, your display server (at least modern ones) just take your client window as a completed frame buffer, and mainly serve to let multiple applications all show their frame buffers without having to worry about what other applications are doing. Frame buffers all the way down, just with support for DMA, atomicity, fancy formats and color spaces, etc. You can use the appropriate modern APIs to make a single, exclusive graphical application with all the benefits of modern display hardware easily enough. That is, after all, what your display server is. You just don't gain much - just a little bit of saved sideband IPC. X11 makes it seem like a display server is a complicated thing that has to support drawing and what not, but with alternatives like Wayland, a full screen client buffer is handed off zero-copy from the client application tot he hardware without being looked at.
- jmmv 2y ago
  > wscons may be more powerful, but I don't think it can be used to fully enable modern accelerated display devices, although do correct me if I'm wrong. As I mentioned in the text, I think that's the difference between WSDISPLAYIO_MODE_MAPPED and WSDISPLAYIO_MODE_DUMBFB. The former allows access to the hardware registers whereas the latter does not. Obviously, if you choose to use the former, then you are tied to a specific graphics driver. (But I'm not sure of this.) And yes, agree, what I described is not great for performant results, but there is a lot you gain from the simplicity of this approach if all you want is toy around. I feel we lost a lot of this simplicity over the years, but it's "still there" if you don't care about optimal performance.
  - taeric 2y ago
    Completely agreed on the feeling that we lost a lot by moving away from some of the simpler interface options. Particularly for introductory and play purposes. Specifically, even.
segasaturn 2y ago
I remember Links, the text-based browser that runs in your terminal, had a framebuffer mode that you could use to get rudimentary graphical web browsing on a system with no X11 installed.
- LtWorf 2y ago
  Yeah, also mpv has a framebuffer driver. AFAIK Qt has one as well, so any Qt program could run without X/wayland.
  - qalmakka 2y ago
    > Qt That's EGLFS, it's used quite a bit in automotive AFAIK. It's slowly getting replaced by Wayland and Weston though.
    - jcelerier 2y ago
      Qt also has a directfb backend (among many others: https://github.com/qt/qtbase/tree/dev/src/plugins/platforms https://github.com/qt/qtbase/tree/dev/src/plugins/platforms)
- prmoustache 2y ago
  I think netsurf can still be compiled for fb.
- baq 2y ago
  May I introduce you to https://www.brow.sh/ https://www.brow.sh/
seba_dos1 2y ago
> Same font, same colors, same… everything? Other than for the actual text they display, they look identical, don’t they? Funny to see that written under two screenshots with clearly different fonts, and even different colors (though not so clearly; but still different enough to make me check).
- jmmv 2y ago
  It’s the same font data but not the same rendering code. The spacing between the characters is probably different.
  - seba_dos1 2y ago
    It's not. Just look at it please! Glyphs are completely different. One font is serif, one is sans-serif. It's the most obvious when you look at p, y, r, a, s...
    - jmmv 2y ago
      Hah, I was convinced I picked the same font file from NetBSD... and didn't really notice the difference on the small screen I'm running this on!
makz 2y ago
Awesome! I was thinking about playing with this on some BSD like two months ago.
synergy20 2y ago
i think that's what sdl provides? except sdl can do more
- incanus77 2y ago
  No, SDL provides a window/context in the existing windowing layer.
  - jpc0 2y ago
    SDL does not need a windowing layer... There might be better docs somewhere but this should act as enough proof for you without linking directly to the source code. https://wiki.libsdl.org/SDL2/SDL_HINT_KMSDRM_REQUIRE_DRM_MASTER https://wiki.libsdl.org/SDL2/SDL_HINT_KMSDRM_REQUIRE_DRM_MAS...
    - incanus77 2y ago
      Thank you, I stand corrected! I had used it in the windowing sense and didn’t recall the other option!
  - bregma 2y ago
    SDL can provide a context in the native windowing system, if you ask it to. Or not. You have to ask for it though, it's not the default.
  - synergy20 2y ago
    I think sdl works directly with fb when using fb as a backend,no windows system is needed
zfg 2y ago
Avalonia (https://avaloniaui.net/ https://avaloniaui.net/) supports the Direct Rendering Manager on Linux for graphics without X11 or Wayland: https://avaloniaui.net/blog/unleashing-net-on-embedded-linux https://avaloniaui.net/blog/unleashing-net-on-embedded-linux https://docs.avaloniaui.net/docs/guides/platforms/rpi/running-on-raspbian-lite-via-drm https://docs.avaloniaui.net/docs/guides/platforms/rpi/runnin...
unit149 2y ago
[dead]
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
int_19h 2y ago
Once upon a time there was a tiny library called TinyPTC that let you write code like this: if (!ptc_open("test",WIDTH,HEIGHT)) return 1; while (1) { for (index=0; index<SIZE; index++) { noise = seed; noise >>= 3; noise ^= seed; carry = noise & 1; noise >>= 1; seed >>= 1; seed |= (carry << 30); noise &= 0xFF; pixel[index] = (noise<<16) | (noise<<8) | noise; } ptc_update(pixel); } I wish we had something equally simple these days.

166 points by ingve 2y ago

On a parallel note, this brought memories of SVGALib. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SVGALib https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SVGALib

keyle 2y ago
Never heard of it before, interesting!
- pjmlp 2y ago
  Yeah, it was a long time ago that it mattered, grey dog over here.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
lizknope 2y ago
I remember running "sdoom" instead of "xdoom" on Linux. It did seem faster on sdoom using SVGAlib.

ykonstant 2y ago

Very nice, I am very interested in raw framebuffer graphics and applications.

mysterydip 2y ago
Check this out: https://github.com/vvaltchev/tfblib https://github.com/vvaltchev/tfblib It worked well for a hobby project. I had issues on certain specific displays I think due to the color depth requirement.

arghwhat 2y ago

These interfaces can be cute to play with, but there's a reason that fbdev is deprecated on Linux - it's not a good interface outside toy examples. wscons may be more powerful, but I don't think it can be used to fully enable modern accelerated display devices, although do correct me if I'm wrong. Despite some confusion in terminology, modern interfaces also operate on frame buffers, but with an API for switching them out atomically. Likewise, your display server (at least modern ones) just take your client window as a completed frame buffer, and mainly serve to let multiple applications all show their frame buffers without having to worry about what other applications are doing. Frame buffers all the way down, just with support for DMA, atomicity, fancy formats and color spaces, etc. You can use the appropriate modern APIs to make a single, exclusive graphical application with all the benefits of modern display hardware easily enough. That is, after all, what your display server is. You just don't gain much - just a little bit of saved sideband IPC. X11 makes it seem like a display server is a complicated thing that has to support drawing and what not, but with alternatives like Wayland, a full screen client buffer is handed off zero-copy from the client application tot he hardware without being looked at.

jmmv 2y ago
> wscons may be more powerful, but I don't think it can be used to fully enable modern accelerated display devices, although do correct me if I'm wrong. As I mentioned in the text, I think that's the difference between WSDISPLAYIO_MODE_MAPPED and WSDISPLAYIO_MODE_DUMBFB. The former allows access to the hardware registers whereas the latter does not. Obviously, if you choose to use the former, then you are tied to a specific graphics driver. (But I'm not sure of this.) And yes, agree, what I described is not great for performant results, but there is a lot you gain from the simplicity of this approach if all you want is toy around. I feel we lost a lot of this simplicity over the years, but it's "still there" if you don't care about optimal performance.
- taeric 2y ago
  Completely agreed on the feeling that we lost a lot by moving away from some of the simpler interface options. Particularly for introductory and play purposes. Specifically, even.

segasaturn 2y ago

I remember Links, the text-based browser that runs in your terminal, had a framebuffer mode that you could use to get rudimentary graphical web browsing on a system with no X11 installed.

LtWorf 2y ago
Yeah, also mpv has a framebuffer driver. AFAIK Qt has one as well, so any Qt program could run without X/wayland.
- qalmakka 2y ago
  > Qt That's EGLFS, it's used quite a bit in automotive AFAIK. It's slowly getting replaced by Wayland and Weston though.
  - jcelerier 2y ago
    Qt also has a directfb backend (among many others: https://github.com/qt/qtbase/tree/dev/src/plugins/platforms https://github.com/qt/qtbase/tree/dev/src/plugins/platforms)
prmoustache 2y ago
I think netsurf can still be compiled for fb.
baq 2y ago
May I introduce you to https://www.brow.sh/ https://www.brow.sh/

seba_dos1 2y ago

> Same font, same colors, same… everything? Other than for the actual text they display, they look identical, don’t they? Funny to see that written under two screenshots with clearly different fonts, and even different colors (though not so clearly; but still different enough to make me check).

jmmv 2y ago
It’s the same font data but not the same rendering code. The spacing between the characters is probably different.
- seba_dos1 2y ago
  It's not. Just look at it please! Glyphs are completely different. One font is serif, one is sans-serif. It's the most obvious when you look at p, y, r, a, s...
  - jmmv 2y ago
    Hah, I was convinced I picked the same font file from NetBSD... and didn't really notice the difference on the small screen I'm running this on!

makz 2y ago

Awesome! I was thinking about playing with this on some BSD like two months ago.

synergy20 2y ago

i think that's what sdl provides? except sdl can do more

incanus77 2y ago
No, SDL provides a window/context in the existing windowing layer.
- jpc0 2y ago
  SDL does not need a windowing layer... There might be better docs somewhere but this should act as enough proof for you without linking directly to the source code. https://wiki.libsdl.org/SDL2/SDL_HINT_KMSDRM_REQUIRE_DRM_MASTER https://wiki.libsdl.org/SDL2/SDL_HINT_KMSDRM_REQUIRE_DRM_MAS...
  - incanus77 2y ago
    Thank you, I stand corrected! I had used it in the windowing sense and didn’t recall the other option!
- bregma 2y ago
  SDL can provide a context in the native windowing system, if you ask it to. Or not. You have to ask for it though, it's not the default.
- synergy20 2y ago
  I think sdl works directly with fb when using fb as a backend,no windows system is needed

zfg 2y ago

Avalonia (https://avaloniaui.net/ https://avaloniaui.net/) supports the Direct Rendering Manager on Linux for graphics without X11 or Wayland: https://avaloniaui.net/blog/unleashing-net-on-embedded-linux https://avaloniaui.net/blog/unleashing-net-on-embedded-linux https://docs.avaloniaui.net/docs/guides/platforms/rpi/running-on-raspbian-lite-via-drm https://docs.avaloniaui.net/docs/guides/platforms/rpi/runnin...

unit149 2y ago

[dead]

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

int_19h 2y ago

Once upon a time there was a tiny library called TinyPTC that let you write code like this: if (!ptc_open("test",WIDTH,HEIGHT)) return 1; while (1) { for (index=0; index<SIZE; index++) { noise = seed; noise >>= 3; noise ^= seed; carry = noise & 1; noise >>= 1; seed >>= 1; seed |= (carry << 30); noise &= 0xFF; pixel[index] = (noise<<16) | (noise<<8) | noise; } ptc_update(pixel); } I wish we had something equally simple these days.