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From a geopolitical perspective, this issue about 3 items: 1) Influence- TikTok gives the CCP significant direct influence over the views of Americans. 2) Dat

From a geopolitical perspective, this issue about 3 items: 1) Influence- TikTok gives the CCP significant direct influence over the views of Americans. 2) Data- TikTok collects massive amounts of data on 100s of millions of Americans. Opens many avenues for spying, extortion of influence, etc. 3) Reciprocity- Foreign tech companies are essentially banned from operating in China. Much like with other industries, China is not playing fair, they’re playing to win. Insofar as TikTok has offered a “superior” product, this might be a story of social media and its double edge. But this far more a story of geopolitics.

dmix 2y ago
> TikTok collects massive amounts of data on 100s of millions of Americans. Opens many avenues for spying, extortion of influence, etc. you can buy all of that from data brokers
- hwillis 2y ago
  It's not even about them: > If, for example, a user allows TikTok access to the user’s phone contact list to connect with others on the platform, TikTok can access “any data stored in the user’s contact list,” including names, contact information, contact photos, job titles, and notes. 2 id., at 659. Access to such detailed information about U. S. users, the Government worries, may enable “China to track the locations of Federal employees and contractors, build dossiers of personal information for blackmail, and conduct corporate espionage.” https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/24pdf/24-656_ca7d.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/24pdf/24-656_ca7d.pdf It seems farcically ridiculous to me to ban the app because it somehow could let china blackmail CEOs.
  - fidotron 2y ago
    They have had legit unintentional problems with apps like Strava: https://www.wired.com/story/strava-heat-map-military-bases-fitness-trackers-privacy/ https://www.wired.com/story/strava-heat-map-military-bases-f... What ZTE were up to was way more nefarious, but couldn't be done with just apps.
lvl155 2y ago
Nail in the head with reciprocity. I think the US honored its end of the bargain over the past four plus decades since China started manufacturing goods for US companies. China clearly benefited since they are now the second largest economy. Along the way China grew ambitious which is fine but they made an idiotic policy error in timing. They should’ve waited a couple more decades to show teeth.
xnx 2y ago
0) Protectionism- TikTok is eating Meta's lunch. Meta can't make a social app as good as TikTok in the same way GM can't make a car as good a value as BYD.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  I won’t say that isn’t relevant; when you’re building a coalition you don’t say no to allies. But it was a cherry on top of a well-baked pie. Not a foundational motivation.
  - xnx 2y ago
    True, but I'd say that in this area (vs. manufacturing where tariffs can be applied), it's more taboo/embarrassing to admit how dominated Instagram was. Reels is the cheap knockoff of the genuine article.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > it's more taboo/embarrassing to admit how dominated Instagram was Where? Stockholders have been vocally livid about it.
- swatcoder 2y ago
  That certainly plays some role in why domestic social media companies haven't stirred up resistance to the ban, but is more like #50 in terms of geopolitical strategy. The domestic companies lost some attention share to TikTok sure, and a ban or domestic sale would generally be in their interests, but it's not like they were about to be Myspaced. They've remained among the most valued companies -- presently and in forecasts -- even while it was "eating their lunch"
  - xnx 2y ago
    > it's not like they were about to be Myspaced. They've remained among the most valued companies It hasn't been an overnight switch, but the trajectory did not look good for US companies. TikTok was even eating into TV viewing time. There's a fixed amount of attention and TikTok was vacuuming it up from everywhere.
soramimo 2y ago
Bravo, perfect summary of the issue at hand. It'll be revealing to see which political actors come out in favor of keeping tiktok around.
fidotron 2y ago
> 1) Influence- TikTok gives the CCP significant direct influence over the views of Americans More to the point: it removes the ability of the existing American establishment to monopolise the viewpoints presented to Americans.
- next_xibalba 2y ago
  Americans are already quite free to seek a broad range of domestic and foreign viewpoints. Chinese citizens, on the other hand, are not. At all. The key point here is that an algorithm can invisibly nudge those viewpoints, and a foreign adversary controls the algorithm. Insofar as your claim is that powerful people and institutions care most about power, I agree. It’s very telling that TikTok would shutdown instead of divest. (Meanwhile, U.S. companies have routinely taken the other side of the deal in China: minority stake joint ventures in which “technology transfer” is mandated. AKA intellectual property plundering.)
  - fidotron 2y ago
    > Americans are already quite free to seek a broad range of domestic and foreign viewpoints. The reality is they live in an establishment controlled media bubble, that is itself full of propaganda. Being free does not mean free to live in a lie constructed for the benefit of someone else, it means being free to live in reality, and that freedom is being denied to Americans. At least the Chinese are aware of their reality.
    - next_xibalba 2y ago
      I can navigate my browser to Al Jazeera, RT, or Xinhua without interference. Meanwhile, China has a national firewall imprisoning its netizens. So, while most Americans opt to live inside filter bubbles, they are free to escape if they so choose. Not so for the citizens of China, who live in the iron grip of the CCP. That’s to say nothing of censorship. I can post “f** Joe Biden” on any social platform in the U.S. Meanwhile, a Chinese netizen compares Xi to Winnie the Pooh and gets a visit from the police. And their post never sees the light of day. These aren’t differences of degree. They are differences of category.
jagermo 2y ago
1) to be honest, when I see how russia, Iran and other states influence all other networks (especially when it comes to voting), not sure how tiktok is worse than all of them - just think of Facebook & Cambridge Analytica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook%E2%80%93Cambridge_Analytica_data_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook%E2%80%93Cambridge_Ana... 2) yes, that is an issue. 3) fair point.
- next_xibalba 2y ago
  Cambridge Analytica had zero effect on the 2016 elections. It was the mother of all nothingburgers. I encourage all who see this comment to dig into the truth of that case. The huge difference is that while foreign adversaries run influence networks on other social media platforms (and are opposed and combatted by those platforms) TikTok (the platform itself) is controlled by the foreign adversary (the CCP).
  - throwawayq3423 2y ago
    It was more a proof of concept. If that could be done on a small scale, why not a large one? And elections are decided by margins, pushing them even slightly has massive, irrevocable consequences.
- Manuel_D 2y ago
  Russia illegally spent something like $100,000 on political ads. Thats basically nothing compared to aggregate political spending.
  - epolanski 2y ago
    Meanwhile US channels this propaganda money through no profits.
    - dv_dt 2y ago
      Yup exactly the same thing is happening only with money laundered through nonprofits and political pacs. Once its there the same buy data and place ads & influence is completely legal - which makes the singled out ban on TikTok at odds with the stated purpose of it
w0m 2y ago
> 1) Influence- TikTok gives the CCP significant direct influence over the views of Americans. There is no credible argument that the CCP doesn't directly control the alg as it's actively being used for just that in tawain/etc. Does the US really want a (hostile?) foreign govt to have clear direct access to influence 170m americans, an entire generation - completely unfettered? Incredible national security implications. Bot farms can influence X/Meta/etc, but they can be at least be fought. TikTok itself is the influence engine as currently constructed.
- jonathanlb 2y ago
  > Does the US really want a (hostile?) foreign govt to have clear direct access to [...] americans Apparently, American users want this? Approximately 700k users have joined RedNote, a Chinese platform. It's out of the frying pan and into the fire for Americans.
  - w0m 2y ago
    For perspective on the the root issue, that number seems incredibly high, and it's still only ~.5% of estimated active American TikTok users.
  - sanktanglia 2y ago
    Well yes, people are addicted to this content so of course they'll seek out alternatives. People want to be distracted by pretty pictures and funny stories and someone telling them their opinions are right
  - airstrike 2y ago
    700k rounds to zero. YouTube has ~240 million US accounts, Instagram has ~170 million.
    - EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y ago
      Every Android owner automatically has a YT account, so that doesn't count to much.
  - 2y ago
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
bsimpson 2y ago
It has blown my mind how "free Palestine" has become a meme. That war started with a bunch of terrorists kidnapping/raping/murdering college-age kids at a music festival, and college kids around the world started marching _in support of_ the perpetrators. At some point, I realized that I avoid social media apps, and the people in those marches certainly don't. I know that there's more to the Israel:Palestine situation than the attack on the music festival, but the fundamental contradiction that the side that brutalized innocent young people seems to have the popular support of young people is hard to ignore. I wonder to what degree it's algorithmically driven.
- spencerflem 2y ago
  In response, Israel has killed tens of thousands of Palestinians, 80% civilians, 70% women and children, have destroyed more than half of their buildings residential or otherwise, displaced millions, refuse aid. Disproportionate does not begin to cover it
- kbloop 2y ago
  to say it started on October 7th is beyond being misinformed or a misrepresentation. >that the side that brutalized innocent young people …
- runarberg 2y ago
  It looks like you are comparing a specific terrorist group to Israel as a society. Be aware that there is a large propaganda machine which uses this tactic to dehumanize Palestinians in order to justify a genocide against them. Now if you wanted to compare atrocities—which honestly you shouldn’t—you would compare the Palestinian children that were brutalized both in the Gaza genocide, and in any one of the number of IDF incursions into Gaza and the West Bank before and after oct 7. That is compare victims to one side, to the victims of the other side. But people generally don’t pick sides like that. They don‘t evaluate the atrocities committed by one armed group to the atrocities committed by the other and favor one over the other. And they certainly don‘t favor one civilian group over another based on the actions of their armed groups. People much more simply react to atrocities as they happen. And Israel has committed enough atrocities during the Gaza genocide that social media will be reacting—both in anger and horror—for a long time to come.
lossolo 2y ago
1. Is there any real evidence of the CCP using TikTok for anything? 3. Then what is Microsoft doing in China? What is Apple doing in China? Etc. No tech company is banned from China, the only companies that choose not to operate in China are those that do not agree to follow Chinese laws.

dmix 2y ago

> TikTok collects massive amounts of data on 100s of millions of Americans. Opens many avenues for spying, extortion of influence, etc. you can buy all of that from data brokers

hwillis 2y ago
It's not even about them: > If, for example, a user allows TikTok access to the user’s phone contact list to connect with others on the platform, TikTok can access “any data stored in the user’s contact list,” including names, contact information, contact photos, job titles, and notes. 2 id., at 659. Access to such detailed information about U. S. users, the Government worries, may enable “China to track the locations of Federal employees and contractors, build dossiers of personal information for blackmail, and conduct corporate espionage.” https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/24pdf/24-656_ca7d.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/24pdf/24-656_ca7d.pdf It seems farcically ridiculous to me to ban the app because it somehow could let china blackmail CEOs.
- fidotron 2y ago
  They have had legit unintentional problems with apps like Strava: https://www.wired.com/story/strava-heat-map-military-bases-fitness-trackers-privacy/ https://www.wired.com/story/strava-heat-map-military-bases-f... What ZTE were up to was way more nefarious, but couldn't be done with just apps.

lvl155 2y ago

Nail in the head with reciprocity. I think the US honored its end of the bargain over the past four plus decades since China started manufacturing goods for US companies. China clearly benefited since they are now the second largest economy. Along the way China grew ambitious which is fine but they made an idiotic policy error in timing. They should’ve waited a couple more decades to show teeth.

xnx 2y ago

0) Protectionism- TikTok is eating Meta's lunch. Meta can't make a social app as good as TikTok in the same way GM can't make a car as good a value as BYD.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
I won’t say that isn’t relevant; when you’re building a coalition you don’t say no to allies. But it was a cherry on top of a well-baked pie. Not a foundational motivation.
- xnx 2y ago
  True, but I'd say that in this area (vs. manufacturing where tariffs can be applied), it's more taboo/embarrassing to admit how dominated Instagram was. Reels is the cheap knockoff of the genuine article.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > it's more taboo/embarrassing to admit how dominated Instagram was Where? Stockholders have been vocally livid about it.
swatcoder 2y ago
That certainly plays some role in why domestic social media companies haven't stirred up resistance to the ban, but is more like #50 in terms of geopolitical strategy. The domestic companies lost some attention share to TikTok sure, and a ban or domestic sale would generally be in their interests, but it's not like they were about to be Myspaced. They've remained among the most valued companies -- presently and in forecasts -- even while it was "eating their lunch"
- xnx 2y ago
  > it's not like they were about to be Myspaced. They've remained among the most valued companies It hasn't been an overnight switch, but the trajectory did not look good for US companies. TikTok was even eating into TV viewing time. There's a fixed amount of attention and TikTok was vacuuming it up from everywhere.

soramimo 2y ago

Bravo, perfect summary of the issue at hand. It'll be revealing to see which political actors come out in favor of keeping tiktok around.

fidotron 2y ago

> 1) Influence- TikTok gives the CCP significant direct influence over the views of Americans More to the point: it removes the ability of the existing American establishment to monopolise the viewpoints presented to Americans.

next_xibalba 2y ago
Americans are already quite free to seek a broad range of domestic and foreign viewpoints. Chinese citizens, on the other hand, are not. At all. The key point here is that an algorithm can invisibly nudge those viewpoints, and a foreign adversary controls the algorithm. Insofar as your claim is that powerful people and institutions care most about power, I agree. It’s very telling that TikTok would shutdown instead of divest. (Meanwhile, U.S. companies have routinely taken the other side of the deal in China: minority stake joint ventures in which “technology transfer” is mandated. AKA intellectual property plundering.)
- fidotron 2y ago
  > Americans are already quite free to seek a broad range of domestic and foreign viewpoints. The reality is they live in an establishment controlled media bubble, that is itself full of propaganda. Being free does not mean free to live in a lie constructed for the benefit of someone else, it means being free to live in reality, and that freedom is being denied to Americans. At least the Chinese are aware of their reality.
  - next_xibalba 2y ago
    I can navigate my browser to Al Jazeera, RT, or Xinhua without interference. Meanwhile, China has a national firewall imprisoning its netizens. So, while most Americans opt to live inside filter bubbles, they are free to escape if they so choose. Not so for the citizens of China, who live in the iron grip of the CCP. That’s to say nothing of censorship. I can post “f** Joe Biden” on any social platform in the U.S. Meanwhile, a Chinese netizen compares Xi to Winnie the Pooh and gets a visit from the police. And their post never sees the light of day. These aren’t differences of degree. They are differences of category.

jagermo 2y ago

1) to be honest, when I see how russia, Iran and other states influence all other networks (especially when it comes to voting), not sure how tiktok is worse than all of them - just think of Facebook & Cambridge Analytica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook%E2%80%93Cambridge_Analytica_data_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook%E2%80%93Cambridge_Ana... 2) yes, that is an issue. 3) fair point.

next_xibalba 2y ago
Cambridge Analytica had zero effect on the 2016 elections. It was the mother of all nothingburgers. I encourage all who see this comment to dig into the truth of that case. The huge difference is that while foreign adversaries run influence networks on other social media platforms (and are opposed and combatted by those platforms) TikTok (the platform itself) is controlled by the foreign adversary (the CCP).
- throwawayq3423 2y ago
  It was more a proof of concept. If that could be done on a small scale, why not a large one? And elections are decided by margins, pushing them even slightly has massive, irrevocable consequences.
Manuel_D 2y ago
Russia illegally spent something like $100,000 on political ads. Thats basically nothing compared to aggregate political spending.
- epolanski 2y ago
  Meanwhile US channels this propaganda money through no profits.
  - dv_dt 2y ago
    Yup exactly the same thing is happening only with money laundered through nonprofits and political pacs. Once its there the same buy data and place ads & influence is completely legal - which makes the singled out ban on TikTok at odds with the stated purpose of it

w0m 2y ago

> 1) Influence- TikTok gives the CCP significant direct influence over the views of Americans. There is no credible argument that the CCP doesn't directly control the alg as it's actively being used for just that in tawain/etc. Does the US really want a (hostile?) foreign govt to have clear direct access to influence 170m americans, an entire generation - completely unfettered? Incredible national security implications. Bot farms can influence X/Meta/etc, but they can be at least be fought. TikTok itself is the influence engine as currently constructed.

jonathanlb 2y ago
> Does the US really want a (hostile?) foreign govt to have clear direct access to [...] americans Apparently, American users want this? Approximately 700k users have joined RedNote, a Chinese platform. It's out of the frying pan and into the fire for Americans.
- w0m 2y ago
  For perspective on the the root issue, that number seems incredibly high, and it's still only ~.5% of estimated active American TikTok users.
- sanktanglia 2y ago
  Well yes, people are addicted to this content so of course they'll seek out alternatives. People want to be distracted by pretty pictures and funny stories and someone telling them their opinions are right
- airstrike 2y ago
  700k rounds to zero. YouTube has ~240 million US accounts, Instagram has ~170 million.
  - EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y ago
    Every Android owner automatically has a YT account, so that doesn't count to much.
- 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

bsimpson 2y ago

It has blown my mind how "free Palestine" has become a meme. That war started with a bunch of terrorists kidnapping/raping/murdering college-age kids at a music festival, and college kids around the world started marching _in support of_ the perpetrators. At some point, I realized that I avoid social media apps, and the people in those marches certainly don't. I know that there's more to the Israel:Palestine situation than the attack on the music festival, but the fundamental contradiction that the side that brutalized innocent young people seems to have the popular support of young people is hard to ignore. I wonder to what degree it's algorithmically driven.

spencerflem 2y ago
In response, Israel has killed tens of thousands of Palestinians, 80% civilians, 70% women and children, have destroyed more than half of their buildings residential or otherwise, displaced millions, refuse aid. Disproportionate does not begin to cover it
kbloop 2y ago
to say it started on October 7th is beyond being misinformed or a misrepresentation. >that the side that brutalized innocent young people …
runarberg 2y ago
It looks like you are comparing a specific terrorist group to Israel as a society. Be aware that there is a large propaganda machine which uses this tactic to dehumanize Palestinians in order to justify a genocide against them. Now if you wanted to compare atrocities—which honestly you shouldn’t—you would compare the Palestinian children that were brutalized both in the Gaza genocide, and in any one of the number of IDF incursions into Gaza and the West Bank before and after oct 7. That is compare victims to one side, to the victims of the other side. But people generally don’t pick sides like that. They don‘t evaluate the atrocities committed by one armed group to the atrocities committed by the other and favor one over the other. And they certainly don‘t favor one civilian group over another based on the actions of their armed groups. People much more simply react to atrocities as they happen. And Israel has committed enough atrocities during the Gaza genocide that social media will be reacting—both in anger and horror—for a long time to come.

lossolo 2y ago

1. Is there any real evidence of the CCP using TikTok for anything? 3. Then what is Microsoft doing in China? What is Apple doing in China? Etc. No tech company is banned from China, the only companies that choose not to operate in China are those that do not agree to follow Chinese laws.