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Apple: Help the best app developers not get "acquihired"

93 points by sxates 14y ago

radicaldreamer 14y ago
"Yet - Google and plenty of other big firms have done a terrible job at harnessing the talent that young entrepreneurs have." The biggest blocker is scale.
ajross 14y ago
I hate to say it, but if Sparrow had been picked up by Apple and the same thing had happened, I really don't think these posts would have been written (edit to be fair: though I'm certain a lot of people in the other camp would have complained about Apple shutting down a popular gmail client). This Google-is-the-enemy culture in the Mac world continues to amaze me.
- LaSombra 14y ago
  Indeed. It seems they treat every Mac/iOS app as "theirs", like the are the sole proprietors of the team/software/website and when someone other than Apple acquires/acquhires them they feel betrayed, as if the developers pledged allegiance to stay that way forever. Just take a look at Instagram's wave of complains when they released an Android app. EDIT: It looks like, to me, that there's almost some kind jealousy from high profile bloggers, but that's just me.
  - k-mcgrady 14y ago
    I don't think anyone is annoyed they were acquired. I'm annoyed that I paid for their Mac and iOS apps and now development is discontinued. I also find it shady that they had a highly publicised half price sale last weekend just before they shut down development. This isn't a service we pay for month-to-month. It's something we paid a higher than average price for (based on App Store prices) and expected continued development. It sets a very bad precedent.
    - ajross 14y ago
      I think all this is fair, actually. I was similarly peeved last week when Mozilla pulled the plug on Thunderbird. But the ire there, and yours, is aimed at the developers who killed it. And that sounds correct. What I find weird are the people who thing that somehow Google's behavior (hiring talented iOS developers with huge hiring bonuses -- the horror) is in bad faith, or that (per the OP) Apple should be responsible for "fixing" it.
      - Dylan16807 14y ago
        It's not that it's Apple's job to do anything about this app, it's about making their ecosystem more friendly to continued development.
    - drewcrawford 14y ago
      > It's something we paid a higher than average price for (based on App Store prices) and expected continued development. I think the lesson here is that you buy a thing as it is today, not for how it could be in the future. If you are not happy with a thing as it is, do not buy it. See, for example: http://www.buzzfeed.com/mattbuchanan/it-never-gets-better http://www.buzzfeed.com/mattbuchanan/it-never-gets-better
      - k-mcgrady 14y ago
        That's true but the developers did say they were working on bringing some features to the app (push notifications for example). I think it's easy for me and you to understand that they were acquired for their talent but to ordinary people it just looks like they've bought something, were promised updates, and they weren't delivered. That reflects badly on all developers and it's something that's been happening a lot in the last few years. Businesses need their customers to trust them and acquihires are making the entire community look bad.
        dannyr 14y ago
        Would you rather have them go out of business than get acq-hired?
  - mpd 14y ago
    There as a similar reaction > 10 years when Hotline was released for Windows after being Mac-only for a number of years.
  - ralfn 14y ago
    What is most shocking, is that this is happening here. You would think this crowd would be more immunine to Steve's reality distortion field. But appearanty, their perspective is that of a sports team supporter. Not the perspective, of critically thinking adult, let alone that of a professional. They are consumed with tribal emotions, yet fail to see how its clouding their judgement. Trying to rationalize what they feel, when they would have never done the same, if did not concern the apple ecosystem.
    - dhugiaskmak 14y ago
      So the HN crowd is... human? How disgusting.
      - ralfn 14y ago
        "System of a down is cool, but people that listen to the spice girls are pathetic" The correct phrase is not "human" as you put it, but "immature". Replace apple/google with band names and hear 14 years olds being as pathetic, and manipulated, as they could be. Considering the audience, you would think they would be just a tad bit more mature. I sure wouldnt invest in any person that needs specific products to establish their idenity. I would have, like this rule, where i would expect people to be an adult.
        dvhh 14y ago
        Unfortunately it seems that the Apple product users seems the loudest/harshest about it. First it was Microsoft and the ilk of x86 compatible when the powerPC was "clearly" superior, then Google with android. While I admit that we have a different generation here, the pattern seems to repeat. While I admit I am certainly jealous of Apple designed products, I prefer the customization that product from other sources provide.
- epistasis 14y ago
  I disagree that the disappointment is purely political, I think it can be traced entirely to this change in the app description for Sparrow: "Sparrow has been acquired by Google. As the team works on new projects, there will be no new features released for the Sparrow apps, other than minor maintenance and bug fixes." If they had instead communicated that they would continue development, or that there would be a better version of the product in the future, not as many people would have been disappointed. And if Apple had done this acquihire and there was such an inflammatory message left on the app description, there'd probably be even more complaining, as people generally trust Apple much less than Google. Both Google and Apple have some great examples of hiring a team and then that team going on to make an even better product. But when they hire a team specifically to shut down the product, it comes out looking pretty bad no matter who does it.
  - wallflower 14y ago
    > But when they hire a team specifically to shut down the product In general, I think if you work for Apple, if you had a preexisting app in the App Store, you get to keep it. However, you are forbidden from developing it further. Side projects are frowned upon at Apple. They want all of you. I would assume Google has similar policies. For an example of an Apple employee: Eliza Block, one of the presenters of the famous Scrollview WWDC talk, had a top-selling crosswords app, "2-Across" in the App Store [1]. "2-Across" was one of the first App Store gold rush success stories [2]. She was probably (rightly) hired on the basis of the quality of the app. That app has not been updated since 2008. No retina graphics. No iOS4. It has languished, rightly - other apps have far surpassed hers now. And there seems to only be a Lite version now. So she is no longer getting revenue from her app. [1] http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/2-across/id285513624?mt=8 http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/2-across/id285513624?mt=8 [2] http://ismashphone.com/2008/08/iphone-app-deve.html http://ismashphone.com/2008/08/iphone-app-deve.html
- deleted 14y ago
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guelo 14y ago
If Apple gave a shit about their developers' businesses they wouldn't be taking 30% off the top of every transaction.
- jyap 14y ago
  Hmm, 30% gets you a lot like an instant world wide market for distribution to millions of iOS devices, app store curation, payment processing via iTunes accounts, etc... Perhaps you are a Google fan since you are the "Founder AndroidWorks consulting"? They also take 30%.
- Steko 14y ago
  The fact that they have a financial interest (albeit small) in their developers' success contradicts your own conclusion.
- suresk 14y ago
  For 30%, you get: order processing, distribution, update management, and some marketing for your application. The order processing alone is is worth it in the case of a .99 app - the CC fees alone would usually be more than 30% in that case, plus you never have to deal with chargebacks. Of all the problems with the app store, I think the cut that Apple takes is pretty far down on the list - in fact, I find it downright reasonable.
ww520 14y ago
It's a matter of economic. If the Sparrow devs were paid adequately to stay independently, they won't agree to be acquired. How much are you willing to pay an app to make it stayed independent?
asparagui 14y ago
re his suggestions: #1, is doable, but Apple probably will never do it. Why buy the cow when developer will submit updates for free? #2, link tracking, will never happen. That's a whole can of worms (privacy advocates, etc) they don't want to open. And so the cycle will only continue: developers build up product/skillset to a certain point, get bought out. The users complain, believing that by spending a few bucks on an app they should get ponies for life. Sorry, it doesn't work that way.
- deepinsand 14y ago
  Re #2: it already happens, just in a limited capacity. A lot of mobile ad networks (if in app, not mobile web) will cookie you with the UDID before and after you click on a link. Android lets you pass some referral information on links to the Google Play market, letting advertisers do this w/o cookies and also on the mobile web.
- jonnycat 14y ago
  It's not widely known, but in practice, you can get effective link tracking using the iTunes affiliate program. Here's a blog post on the topic I wrote up a while back: http://www.coursenotesapp.com/blog/?p=16 http://www.coursenotesapp.com/blog/?p=16 .
eps 14y ago
Monthly subscriptions would've done zilch for Sparrow. Moreover I don't see what sort of apps (apps, not just native frontends for the services) could actually adopt a subscription model and not loose most of their user base.
suresk 14y ago
I, too, wish Apple would allow campaign tracking, but there is (or at least, was at one point) a backdoor way to do this - signup as an affiliate (via LinkShare) and use that to track conversions.
dnissley 14y ago
I just don't understand... what features were people expecting sparrow to add? That they are now disappointed about not getting anymore? I have yet to hear anyone who expressed their disappointment about the announcement say anything specific about what they thought they were losing.
- hobin 14y ago
  They're not even losing anything, because the app didn't disappear into thin air. To be completely honest, I think most of this is simply people being a little dramatic.
  - deleted 14y ago
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  - prodigal_erik 14y ago
    It's perfectly feasible to keep software working indefinitely, but our industry is nowhere near mature enough to do it. In just a few years this unmaintained app will become unusable over some gratuitous platform change. But hey, they knew they weren't getting source when they bought it.
- danilocampos 14y ago
  Push notifications.
pfranz 14y ago
Yearly subscriptions for a standalone app? I understand the motivation for continuous income. What's wrong with the old method of releasing a paid 2.0? Admittedly, it's a bit hairy in the Apple App Store world since you can't have paid updates, but why not a separate app? That way you can have maintenance releases in the old version and charge for the new one. Although, the rub is you can't give discounts for upgrades. Like it's stated in the article, you pay a fixed price for a song that's released. Why should my software stop working if I don't want new features?
- marcomonteiro 14y ago
  I think another challenge with this approach would be marketing/awareness. With app updates, current users are notified that there is a new version. If you put out a new version separate from the previous one then your existing user base is unaware that there is a new (and better?) version of XYZ app. It's just messy. Paid upgrades directly supported by the App Store/OS would be much better IMO.
- cageface 14y ago
  This way you have two forks to maintain which is a big headache. Apple needs to allow app demos so devs can charge higher prices without scaring away customers and they need to allow for paid upgrades. The truth is that it's too hard to make money at app store prices.
therandomguy 14y ago
If you write "Apple: help the...", it appears like that was a statement from Apple. It should be, "Apple, help the best...". Not about the grammar or anything, but just to get clarity from the title.
- scoot 14y ago
  > Not about the grammar or anything, but just to get clarity from the title. If it's about clarity, it's about grammar. No need to apologize.
Steko 14y ago
"This is not a good trend for Apple. Apple is depending on apps like Sparrow to make the iOS platform shine. Excellent apps like Sparrow cost a lot of money to build and maintain. Apple should be working hard to ensure independent app developers can earn even more than top salaries at Google, or they will all be poached away." I'm not sure this even follows. Every time we see an iOS hitmaker acquired in 8-10 digit deals it tells the dev community that their golden ticket is to develop for iOS. ... "There are two things Apple can do to help developers make more money: 1) Allow developers to charge monthly/annual subscription pricing... 2) Allow developers to track the success of social and internet ad campaigns." Neither of these ideas would have gotten Sparrow's devs anywhere close to the money they made by signing up with Google. Sometimes people want to cash out, we need to stop pretending that is the end of an era of decent email clients. Sparrow is still there and it works. Other clients will clone and improve on it.
flyosity 14y ago
This article really bothered me. Sparrow made a ton of money with only a small handful of people working on the product. It was extremely profitable and popular. I don't think any developers working there would have problems with Ramen noodle salaries with all the money that they were making. When Google comes knocking on your door with eight figures, what do you expect them to say? How altruistic do you expect someone in that position to really be? They developed and designed a hit app that everyone loved and the team was snapped up. They don't owe anyone anything, it was their own decision, and although they were profitable and could have continued working on their products into the future, they chose to take a huge payday. This has nothing to do with Apple, a 30% cut, or them not making enough profit because they definitely were.
- achompas 14y ago
  These developers worked hard to ship the best Gmail client on iOS or OS X. Why is everyone angry about their comeuppance? Software is a business, just like any other. Every project -- even open source projects!! -- needs money to operate, and many times these projects -- yes, even open source projects!! -- organize around businesses or foundations. See Enthought and Continuum for two examples: they exist, among other things, to support development of scientific computing libraries for Python. Does this hurt for people who bought Sparrow? Not really. You paid them $10 for their app. Google offered them up to $25 million. You still have a functioning Sparrow app, and once that stops working you'll return to Mail.app until a new amazing mail app comes along. Perspective, people. This is a website focused on tech entrepreneurship, and you guys are flipping out over a company sale?
  - jasonlotito 14y ago
    > Why is everyone angry about their comeuppance? Because, as of now, a tool they've come to rely on is essentially done. It won't get updated, and should future versions of an OS that it runs on changes something, there is no promise of a fix. This could be solved if the code base was released publicly, but that hasn't happened yet. > Does this hurt for people who bought Sparrow? Not really. You paid them $10 for their app. The people behind Sparrow were very public about features they were working on that will never get implemented. I know I almost bought Sparrow because of those public statement. There is also the expectation that buying into an app, it will continue to get updates so it will continue to work. Now, time invested into Sparrow is essentially a time bomb. Eventually it will stop working, and the user will have to switch. Sparrow is free to take the money. However, how they handled this was a slap in the face to it's paying customers.
greghinch 14y ago
My only takeaway from the Sparrow acquisition is that I wish Apple had done it and put them in charge of Mail.app. Can't fault them for taking a payout for a lot of hard work
slaven 14y ago
I just have to add that we've solved the second part of the problem - being able to measure web marketing - and for free. http://blog.tapstream.com/post/27658813582/apple-wont-stop-acquihires-but-maybe-we-can-help http://blog.tapstream.com/post/27658813582/apple-wont-stop-a...
antr 14y ago
This talent acquisitions issue is also fueled by angel investors and VCs telling entrepreneurs that (i) they should not focus on revenues/profit, and (ii) grow fast quickly. This advice is some of the worst advice to give entrepreneurs, because revenue/profit is fundamental for any company's survival, and growth does not translate to long-term success. Then again, investors are in a constant conflict of interest with owning a piece of a long-term profitable businesses, and their expertise is not close to knowing how to manage a profitable business. Having said that, VCs are good at flipping startups to cash-rich companies, who seem to care little on value dilution. How many acquired companies have Google, Microsoft, Yahoo, AOL, New Corp, etc shut down? Which makes me think: what is the net value of Venture Capital flips to the economy?
tlogan 14y ago
Was Sparrow profitable? Does not anybody know that?
LVB 14y ago
Rude. For as much as the guy loved Sparrow and how it has "added a lot of value to [his] life" for $9.99, good luck finding a "congratulations" or even "thank you" in the post. Instead it's a bunch of complaining about how he is now denied his app, along with a few jabs at the Sparrow team, Google, and Apple for not fixing it all. Recommended reading: "Who Moved My Cheese?"
mladenkovacevic 14y ago
I don't have access to Sparrow so I'd like to know from people who do use it: how much better is your email experience because of it? I ask because I'm sceptical of Sparrow's business model in the first place. I am most people. I come from a culture of ISP bundled email services (hidden cost) and Hotmail and Gmail and I basically refuse to pay my own take-home income to be able to send & receive emails. I'm actually more generous than most people because I might even pay $3 for an app that will make my email experience better but what happens when all the people who are into doing that (not a whole lot of people) have purchased the app? The market will have dried up. And what then? Monthly subscription? Unless it is bundled with other services I'm not interested. Upgrade to a "Pro" version of the product? No thanks. I think this is the beginning of the end of nice-to-have paid apps. Once a developer has exhausted his or her market they are forced to find another brilliant idea. How many brilliant and executable ideas do you have in you?
- Steko 14y ago
  Texts, Twitter, IMs, FB, Skype and company have eaten into so much of what email's traditionally been used for that a lot of people don't need more then the default client. My Gmail account it now used primarily as a glorified repository of site registrations.
- malyk 14y ago
  I use the sparrow Mac client and love it. I keep it on the top left of my 27" iMac screen about and it's roughly 350px wide by half the screen tall. Twitter sits underneath it at the same width/height. It only has 2 email accounts linked to it (work and personal) and they are both gmail. It's always on and always there. I prefer it to the gmail web app because I can keep it visible and it's a couple of keyboard shortcuts away to read and send email, can keep me logged in to both accounts simultaneously without having to "hack" gmail with an incognito window or two separate browsers, and...it's not a web app. Oh, and the interface is so much simpler than gmail and I confess to not using labels or tags or filters or anything "advanced" in gmail so it is perfect for me. I'm personally not so bothered that they aren't going to continue improving it because it does everything I need it to do, but for me it was definitely worth the $10 I paid for it and it fits my workflow/screen layout much much better than a web app would.
robomartin 14y ago
This is more of a general thought rather than a specific comment on the article. It occurred to me that other day that one of the best things Apple could do for both developers and end-users is to do away with the whole business of "Lite" apps. What I mean by this is that iOS users should be able to download and use any app prior to purchasing it. The developer would determine the trial period. The developer would also decide if you get to try it on both an iPhone and an iPad or if you just get to check it out on a single device. The OS would enforce the mechanism and keep everyone honest. Once the trial period expires you have to pay for the app or it auto-removes itself. Of course, you can always go back to the app store and purchase the app to get it back. What I would hope this might do is create a situation where one could price apps at a higher level right from the start. There are lots of apps that are not even worth $0.99. I've certainly purchased a number of them. At the same time, there are apps that are grossly under-priced. The problem is that it is tough to get people to spend money on some of these apps, particularly if they've been burned by paid apps that are crappy. An OS-enforced trial-period mechanism might allow developers to do quality apps and charge accordingly. It would also allow users to really explore and find exactly what they want without having to waste money. Having said that, my gut feeling is that Apple makes a ton of money from crap apps that go for $0.99. People buy them to try them out and, because they are cheap, don't really get too worked-up about them afterwards.
- pooriaazimi 14y ago
  > iOS users should be able to download and use any app prior to purchasing it. Apple already does this. But only in Taiwan: "Apple Offering 7-Day Refund Policy on App Store Apps in Taiwan" (June 2011) http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/27/apple-offering-7-day-refund-policy-on-app-store-apps-in-taiwan/ http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/27/apple-offering-7-day-ref... > my gut feeling is that Apple makes a ton of money from crap apps that go for $0.99 They barely make a profit on the App Store. They make money selling hardware. The software is just an appetizer.
brackishlake 14y ago
I can say confidentially I would NEVER pay a monthly subscription for a freaking email program. You've got to be kidding me if this is your "solution." Here's the lesson and Apple cannot fix this: indie developers can be swayed and pulled away by big companies like Google. Sparrow made the decision for themselves - not because of some inherent flaw in Apple's app economy. Here's the other lesson for all of you: guess what? An (arguably) great app has just vanished from the ecosystem. Go create your own! There is obviously a gap to fill now. Make something better than Sparrow. And when Google comes knocking, say no. Stop whining.
zaptheimpaler 14y ago
Frankly, this article annoys the hell out of me. Firstly, what trend is he talking about? He gave me two examples - Sparrow and QuickOffice. That's not a trend, thats two apps, and if there really is one, then that should've been made clearer. Now, assuming this is a recurring trend, it still remains to be seen whether its one worth dealing with for Apple. Even if this kind of poaching happens, its likely that its on such a small scale that it makes almost no difference to the ecosystem of the app store. Basically, the assertion that "Apple is depending on apps like Sparrow to make the iOS platform shine" is backed by nothing. If nothing else, the points about what Apple could do to help devs make more money are useful. Even in this case, I don't see why apple providing support for subscription fees is superior to letting the app creators handle that through online accounts. If the subscription part were handled by Apple, that just means more of a delay when the app makers want to change the structure/pricing of the subscription and even less control over the statistics that they can gather. The point about providing detailed statistics is great. As achampas said, acquisitions and talent poaching is simply an economic reality, and a good one for developers because it gives them better economic prospects and more freedom in choosing their jobs. Overall, a personal disappointment over the fact that Sparrow will no longer be under development is completely acceptable("my favorite email application on both iOS and Mac OS"), but thats not a good reason to decide that some trend is bad and that it should be fixed.
sbtest 14y ago
The sparrow case aside, there does seem to be limited prospects for sustaining a business focused on producing high quality apps. There seems to be very few patterns for success; e.g. acqusition, serialization of a single hit game, or a store with an overlay requiring the least possible effort to produce. Obviously exceptions can be found, but the idea that the app environment could be modified to make other types of businesses more viable likely has some truth to it.
pwthornton 14y ago
I'm torn on this: http://interchangeproject.org/2012/07/20/goodbye-sparrow/ http://interchangeproject.org/2012/07/20/goodbye-sparrow/ On one hand, I think this could be great for Gmail and even the wider world of email by bringing Sparrow's great UI/UX work to a bigger audience and more platforms and experiences. Gmail's engineers and back-end technology + Sparrow's UI/UX team seems like a match made in heaven. On the other hand, this is the end of the fantastic iPhone and Mac apps. Eventually bugs or incompatibilities with new OSes will end of life them, and Google does not have a good track record of making good native experiences for any platform other than Android. I hope that doesn't continue. The worst thing for me would be if Google took this talent and only improved the Web experience, while also no longer delivering a good iOS experience. Good should take the Sparrow iOS app and make it into the official Gmail app for the platform. They should then take parts of it for the official Android app. After that, the Mac Sparrow app should become the basis for future Mac and Windows Gmail apps.
cooldeal 14y ago
A few points: 1) The app store pioneered the 99c app. Windows shareware was usually $30 before that(think WinRAR, WinZip). A $5 price is considered outrageous now. 2) Apple does not provide a way for developers to charge for paid upgrades
stevenwei 14y ago
1) Allow developers to charge monthly/annual subscription pricing. This is possible via IAP, and some apps follow this model, but unfortunately in a world of $.99 apps users just aren't willing to pay a subscription fee for a utility app. 2) Allow developers to track the success of social and internet ad campaigns. I agree that this would be very useful, although again at a price point of $10 or below (minus 30%), all you're going to find out is that your ad campaign has negative ROI anyway. Either way, these suggestions do nothing to prevent developers from getting acquihired if a big company comes along with a big offer - especially if they've previously raised a round of funding. Marco has managed to avoid acquisition because he bootstrapped Instapaper entirely on his own, retains full decision making power, doesn't have investors pushing him for an exit, and hasn't received an offer he's satisfied with (yet). But I would say his situation is probably the exception rather than the norm.
tomflack 14y ago
To further this goal I'd love to see Apple add paid upgrades. Possibly with a "can't just be bug fixes, must have significant new features" rule. This will probably happen when one of the big Apple Mac app store apps needs an update. Aperture, Logic, Final Cut...
SudarshanP 14y ago
I hope SublimeText goes opensource soon. Else if they sell out, a lot of customers will have to become sad. I guess Vi/Emacs are still the best choice :)

93 points by sxates 14y ago

"Yet - Google and plenty of other big firms have done a terrible job at harnessing the talent that young entrepreneurs have." The biggest blocker is scale.

ajross 14y ago

I hate to say it, but if Sparrow had been picked up by Apple and the same thing had happened, I really don't think these posts would have been written (edit to be fair: though I'm certain a lot of people in the other camp would have complained about Apple shutting down a popular gmail client). This Google-is-the-enemy culture in the Mac world continues to amaze me.

LaSombra 14y ago
Indeed. It seems they treat every Mac/iOS app as "theirs", like the are the sole proprietors of the team/software/website and when someone other than Apple acquires/acquhires them they feel betrayed, as if the developers pledged allegiance to stay that way forever. Just take a look at Instagram's wave of complains when they released an Android app. EDIT: It looks like, to me, that there's almost some kind jealousy from high profile bloggers, but that's just me.
- k-mcgrady 14y ago
  I don't think anyone is annoyed they were acquired. I'm annoyed that I paid for their Mac and iOS apps and now development is discontinued. I also find it shady that they had a highly publicised half price sale last weekend just before they shut down development. This isn't a service we pay for month-to-month. It's something we paid a higher than average price for (based on App Store prices) and expected continued development. It sets a very bad precedent.
  - ajross 14y ago
    I think all this is fair, actually. I was similarly peeved last week when Mozilla pulled the plug on Thunderbird. But the ire there, and yours, is aimed at the developers who killed it. And that sounds correct. What I find weird are the people who thing that somehow Google's behavior (hiring talented iOS developers with huge hiring bonuses -- the horror) is in bad faith, or that (per the OP) Apple should be responsible for "fixing" it.
    - Dylan16807 14y ago
      It's not that it's Apple's job to do anything about this app, it's about making their ecosystem more friendly to continued development.
  - drewcrawford 14y ago
    > It's something we paid a higher than average price for (based on App Store prices) and expected continued development. I think the lesson here is that you buy a thing as it is today, not for how it could be in the future. If you are not happy with a thing as it is, do not buy it. See, for example: http://www.buzzfeed.com/mattbuchanan/it-never-gets-better http://www.buzzfeed.com/mattbuchanan/it-never-gets-better
    - k-mcgrady 14y ago
      That's true but the developers did say they were working on bringing some features to the app (push notifications for example). I think it's easy for me and you to understand that they were acquired for their talent but to ordinary people it just looks like they've bought something, were promised updates, and they weren't delivered. That reflects badly on all developers and it's something that's been happening a lot in the last few years. Businesses need their customers to trust them and acquihires are making the entire community look bad.
      - dannyr 14y ago
        Would you rather have them go out of business than get acq-hired?
- mpd 14y ago
  There as a similar reaction > 10 years when Hotline was released for Windows after being Mac-only for a number of years.
- ralfn 14y ago
  What is most shocking, is that this is happening here. You would think this crowd would be more immunine to Steve's reality distortion field. But appearanty, their perspective is that of a sports team supporter. Not the perspective, of critically thinking adult, let alone that of a professional. They are consumed with tribal emotions, yet fail to see how its clouding their judgement. Trying to rationalize what they feel, when they would have never done the same, if did not concern the apple ecosystem.
  - dhugiaskmak 14y ago
    So the HN crowd is... human? How disgusting.
    - ralfn 14y ago
      "System of a down is cool, but people that listen to the spice girls are pathetic" The correct phrase is not "human" as you put it, but "immature". Replace apple/google with band names and hear 14 years olds being as pathetic, and manipulated, as they could be. Considering the audience, you would think they would be just a tad bit more mature. I sure wouldnt invest in any person that needs specific products to establish their idenity. I would have, like this rule, where i would expect people to be an adult.
      - dvhh 14y ago
        Unfortunately it seems that the Apple product users seems the loudest/harshest about it. First it was Microsoft and the ilk of x86 compatible when the powerPC was "clearly" superior, then Google with android. While I admit that we have a different generation here, the pattern seems to repeat. While I admit I am certainly jealous of Apple designed products, I prefer the customization that product from other sources provide.
epistasis 14y ago
I disagree that the disappointment is purely political, I think it can be traced entirely to this change in the app description for Sparrow: "Sparrow has been acquired by Google. As the team works on new projects, there will be no new features released for the Sparrow apps, other than minor maintenance and bug fixes." If they had instead communicated that they would continue development, or that there would be a better version of the product in the future, not as many people would have been disappointed. And if Apple had done this acquihire and there was such an inflammatory message left on the app description, there'd probably be even more complaining, as people generally trust Apple much less than Google. Both Google and Apple have some great examples of hiring a team and then that team going on to make an even better product. But when they hire a team specifically to shut down the product, it comes out looking pretty bad no matter who does it.
- wallflower 14y ago
  > But when they hire a team specifically to shut down the product In general, I think if you work for Apple, if you had a preexisting app in the App Store, you get to keep it. However, you are forbidden from developing it further. Side projects are frowned upon at Apple. They want all of you. I would assume Google has similar policies. For an example of an Apple employee: Eliza Block, one of the presenters of the famous Scrollview WWDC talk, had a top-selling crosswords app, "2-Across" in the App Store [1]. "2-Across" was one of the first App Store gold rush success stories [2]. She was probably (rightly) hired on the basis of the quality of the app. That app has not been updated since 2008. No retina graphics. No iOS4. It has languished, rightly - other apps have far surpassed hers now. And there seems to only be a Lite version now. So she is no longer getting revenue from her app. [1] http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/2-across/id285513624?mt=8 http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/2-across/id285513624?mt=8 [2] http://ismashphone.com/2008/08/iphone-app-deve.html http://ismashphone.com/2008/08/iphone-app-deve.html
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guelo 14y ago

If Apple gave a shit about their developers' businesses they wouldn't be taking 30% off the top of every transaction.

jyap 14y ago
Hmm, 30% gets you a lot like an instant world wide market for distribution to millions of iOS devices, app store curation, payment processing via iTunes accounts, etc... Perhaps you are a Google fan since you are the "Founder AndroidWorks consulting"? They also take 30%.
Steko 14y ago
The fact that they have a financial interest (albeit small) in their developers' success contradicts your own conclusion.
suresk 14y ago
For 30%, you get: order processing, distribution, update management, and some marketing for your application. The order processing alone is is worth it in the case of a .99 app - the CC fees alone would usually be more than 30% in that case, plus you never have to deal with chargebacks. Of all the problems with the app store, I think the cut that Apple takes is pretty far down on the list - in fact, I find it downright reasonable.

ww520 14y ago

It's a matter of economic. If the Sparrow devs were paid adequately to stay independently, they won't agree to be acquired. How much are you willing to pay an app to make it stayed independent?

asparagui 14y ago

re his suggestions: #1, is doable, but Apple probably will never do it. Why buy the cow when developer will submit updates for free? #2, link tracking, will never happen. That's a whole can of worms (privacy advocates, etc) they don't want to open. And so the cycle will only continue: developers build up product/skillset to a certain point, get bought out. The users complain, believing that by spending a few bucks on an app they should get ponies for life. Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

deepinsand 14y ago
Re #2: it already happens, just in a limited capacity. A lot of mobile ad networks (if in app, not mobile web) will cookie you with the UDID before and after you click on a link. Android lets you pass some referral information on links to the Google Play market, letting advertisers do this w/o cookies and also on the mobile web.
jonnycat 14y ago
It's not widely known, but in practice, you can get effective link tracking using the iTunes affiliate program. Here's a blog post on the topic I wrote up a while back: http://www.coursenotesapp.com/blog/?p=16 http://www.coursenotesapp.com/blog/?p=16 .

eps 14y ago

Monthly subscriptions would've done zilch for Sparrow. Moreover I don't see what sort of apps (apps, not just native frontends for the services) could actually adopt a subscription model and not loose most of their user base.

suresk 14y ago

I, too, wish Apple would allow campaign tracking, but there is (or at least, was at one point) a backdoor way to do this - signup as an affiliate (via LinkShare) and use that to track conversions.

dnissley 14y ago

I just don't understand... what features were people expecting sparrow to add? That they are now disappointed about not getting anymore? I have yet to hear anyone who expressed their disappointment about the announcement say anything specific about what they thought they were losing.

hobin 14y ago
They're not even losing anything, because the app didn't disappear into thin air. To be completely honest, I think most of this is simply people being a little dramatic.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- prodigal_erik 14y ago
  It's perfectly feasible to keep software working indefinitely, but our industry is nowhere near mature enough to do it. In just a few years this unmaintained app will become unusable over some gratuitous platform change. But hey, they knew they weren't getting source when they bought it.
danilocampos 14y ago
Push notifications.

pfranz 14y ago

Yearly subscriptions for a standalone app? I understand the motivation for continuous income. What's wrong with the old method of releasing a paid 2.0? Admittedly, it's a bit hairy in the Apple App Store world since you can't have paid updates, but why not a separate app? That way you can have maintenance releases in the old version and charge for the new one. Although, the rub is you can't give discounts for upgrades. Like it's stated in the article, you pay a fixed price for a song that's released. Why should my software stop working if I don't want new features?

marcomonteiro 14y ago
I think another challenge with this approach would be marketing/awareness. With app updates, current users are notified that there is a new version. If you put out a new version separate from the previous one then your existing user base is unaware that there is a new (and better?) version of XYZ app. It's just messy. Paid upgrades directly supported by the App Store/OS would be much better IMO.
cageface 14y ago
This way you have two forks to maintain which is a big headache. Apple needs to allow app demos so devs can charge higher prices without scaring away customers and they need to allow for paid upgrades. The truth is that it's too hard to make money at app store prices.

therandomguy 14y ago

If you write "Apple: help the...", it appears like that was a statement from Apple. It should be, "Apple, help the best...". Not about the grammar or anything, but just to get clarity from the title.

scoot 14y ago
> Not about the grammar or anything, but just to get clarity from the title. If it's about clarity, it's about grammar. No need to apologize.

Steko 14y ago

"This is not a good trend for Apple. Apple is depending on apps like Sparrow to make the iOS platform shine. Excellent apps like Sparrow cost a lot of money to build and maintain. Apple should be working hard to ensure independent app developers can earn even more than top salaries at Google, or they will all be poached away." I'm not sure this even follows. Every time we see an iOS hitmaker acquired in 8-10 digit deals it tells the dev community that their golden ticket is to develop for iOS. ... "There are two things Apple can do to help developers make more money: 1) Allow developers to charge monthly/annual subscription pricing... 2) Allow developers to track the success of social and internet ad campaigns." Neither of these ideas would have gotten Sparrow's devs anywhere close to the money they made by signing up with Google. Sometimes people want to cash out, we need to stop pretending that is the end of an era of decent email clients. Sparrow is still there and it works. Other clients will clone and improve on it.

flyosity 14y ago

This article really bothered me. Sparrow made a ton of money with only a small handful of people working on the product. It was extremely profitable and popular. I don't think any developers working there would have problems with Ramen noodle salaries with all the money that they were making. When Google comes knocking on your door with eight figures, what do you expect them to say? How altruistic do you expect someone in that position to really be? They developed and designed a hit app that everyone loved and the team was snapped up. They don't owe anyone anything, it was their own decision, and although they were profitable and could have continued working on their products into the future, they chose to take a huge payday. This has nothing to do with Apple, a 30% cut, or them not making enough profit because they definitely were.

achompas 14y ago
These developers worked hard to ship the best Gmail client on iOS or OS X. Why is everyone angry about their comeuppance? Software is a business, just like any other. Every project -- even open source projects!! -- needs money to operate, and many times these projects -- yes, even open source projects!! -- organize around businesses or foundations. See Enthought and Continuum for two examples: they exist, among other things, to support development of scientific computing libraries for Python. Does this hurt for people who bought Sparrow? Not really. You paid them $10 for their app. Google offered them up to $25 million. You still have a functioning Sparrow app, and once that stops working you'll return to Mail.app until a new amazing mail app comes along. Perspective, people. This is a website focused on tech entrepreneurship, and you guys are flipping out over a company sale?
- jasonlotito 14y ago
  > Why is everyone angry about their comeuppance? Because, as of now, a tool they've come to rely on is essentially done. It won't get updated, and should future versions of an OS that it runs on changes something, there is no promise of a fix. This could be solved if the code base was released publicly, but that hasn't happened yet. > Does this hurt for people who bought Sparrow? Not really. You paid them $10 for their app. The people behind Sparrow were very public about features they were working on that will never get implemented. I know I almost bought Sparrow because of those public statement. There is also the expectation that buying into an app, it will continue to get updates so it will continue to work. Now, time invested into Sparrow is essentially a time bomb. Eventually it will stop working, and the user will have to switch. Sparrow is free to take the money. However, how they handled this was a slap in the face to it's paying customers.

greghinch 14y ago

My only takeaway from the Sparrow acquisition is that I wish Apple had done it and put them in charge of Mail.app. Can't fault them for taking a payout for a lot of hard work

slaven 14y ago

I just have to add that we've solved the second part of the problem - being able to measure web marketing - and for free. http://blog.tapstream.com/post/27658813582/apple-wont-stop-acquihires-but-maybe-we-can-help http://blog.tapstream.com/post/27658813582/apple-wont-stop-a...

antr 14y ago

This talent acquisitions issue is also fueled by angel investors and VCs telling entrepreneurs that (i) they should not focus on revenues/profit, and (ii) grow fast quickly. This advice is some of the worst advice to give entrepreneurs, because revenue/profit is fundamental for any company's survival, and growth does not translate to long-term success. Then again, investors are in a constant conflict of interest with owning a piece of a long-term profitable businesses, and their expertise is not close to knowing how to manage a profitable business. Having said that, VCs are good at flipping startups to cash-rich companies, who seem to care little on value dilution. How many acquired companies have Google, Microsoft, Yahoo, AOL, New Corp, etc shut down? Which makes me think: what is the net value of Venture Capital flips to the economy?

tlogan 14y ago

Was Sparrow profitable? Does not anybody know that?

LVB 14y ago

Rude. For as much as the guy loved Sparrow and how it has "added a lot of value to [his] life" for $9.99, good luck finding a "congratulations" or even "thank you" in the post. Instead it's a bunch of complaining about how he is now denied his app, along with a few jabs at the Sparrow team, Google, and Apple for not fixing it all. Recommended reading: "Who Moved My Cheese?"

mladenkovacevic 14y ago

I don't have access to Sparrow so I'd like to know from people who do use it: how much better is your email experience because of it? I ask because I'm sceptical of Sparrow's business model in the first place. I am most people. I come from a culture of ISP bundled email services (hidden cost) and Hotmail and Gmail and I basically refuse to pay my own take-home income to be able to send & receive emails. I'm actually more generous than most people because I might even pay $3 for an app that will make my email experience better but what happens when all the people who are into doing that (not a whole lot of people) have purchased the app? The market will have dried up. And what then? Monthly subscription? Unless it is bundled with other services I'm not interested. Upgrade to a "Pro" version of the product? No thanks. I think this is the beginning of the end of nice-to-have paid apps. Once a developer has exhausted his or her market they are forced to find another brilliant idea. How many brilliant and executable ideas do you have in you?

Steko 14y ago
Texts, Twitter, IMs, FB, Skype and company have eaten into so much of what email's traditionally been used for that a lot of people don't need more then the default client. My Gmail account it now used primarily as a glorified repository of site registrations.
malyk 14y ago
I use the sparrow Mac client and love it. I keep it on the top left of my 27" iMac screen about and it's roughly 350px wide by half the screen tall. Twitter sits underneath it at the same width/height. It only has 2 email accounts linked to it (work and personal) and they are both gmail. It's always on and always there. I prefer it to the gmail web app because I can keep it visible and it's a couple of keyboard shortcuts away to read and send email, can keep me logged in to both accounts simultaneously without having to "hack" gmail with an incognito window or two separate browsers, and...it's not a web app. Oh, and the interface is so much simpler than gmail and I confess to not using labels or tags or filters or anything "advanced" in gmail so it is perfect for me. I'm personally not so bothered that they aren't going to continue improving it because it does everything I need it to do, but for me it was definitely worth the $10 I paid for it and it fits my workflow/screen layout much much better than a web app would.

robomartin 14y ago

This is more of a general thought rather than a specific comment on the article. It occurred to me that other day that one of the best things Apple could do for both developers and end-users is to do away with the whole business of "Lite" apps. What I mean by this is that iOS users should be able to download and use any app prior to purchasing it. The developer would determine the trial period. The developer would also decide if you get to try it on both an iPhone and an iPad or if you just get to check it out on a single device. The OS would enforce the mechanism and keep everyone honest. Once the trial period expires you have to pay for the app or it auto-removes itself. Of course, you can always go back to the app store and purchase the app to get it back. What I would hope this might do is create a situation where one could price apps at a higher level right from the start. There are lots of apps that are not even worth $0.99. I've certainly purchased a number of them. At the same time, there are apps that are grossly under-priced. The problem is that it is tough to get people to spend money on some of these apps, particularly if they've been burned by paid apps that are crappy. An OS-enforced trial-period mechanism might allow developers to do quality apps and charge accordingly. It would also allow users to really explore and find exactly what they want without having to waste money. Having said that, my gut feeling is that Apple makes a ton of money from crap apps that go for $0.99. People buy them to try them out and, because they are cheap, don't really get too worked-up about them afterwards.

pooriaazimi 14y ago
> iOS users should be able to download and use any app prior to purchasing it. Apple already does this. But only in Taiwan: "Apple Offering 7-Day Refund Policy on App Store Apps in Taiwan" (June 2011) http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/27/apple-offering-7-day-refund-policy-on-app-store-apps-in-taiwan/ http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/27/apple-offering-7-day-ref... > my gut feeling is that Apple makes a ton of money from crap apps that go for $0.99 They barely make a profit on the App Store. They make money selling hardware. The software is just an appetizer.

brackishlake 14y ago

I can say confidentially I would NEVER pay a monthly subscription for a freaking email program. You've got to be kidding me if this is your "solution." Here's the lesson and Apple cannot fix this: indie developers can be swayed and pulled away by big companies like Google. Sparrow made the decision for themselves - not because of some inherent flaw in Apple's app economy. Here's the other lesson for all of you: guess what? An (arguably) great app has just vanished from the ecosystem. Go create your own! There is obviously a gap to fill now. Make something better than Sparrow. And when Google comes knocking, say no. Stop whining.

zaptheimpaler 14y ago

Frankly, this article annoys the hell out of me. Firstly, what trend is he talking about? He gave me two examples - Sparrow and QuickOffice. That's not a trend, thats two apps, and if there really is one, then that should've been made clearer. Now, assuming this is a recurring trend, it still remains to be seen whether its one worth dealing with for Apple. Even if this kind of poaching happens, its likely that its on such a small scale that it makes almost no difference to the ecosystem of the app store. Basically, the assertion that "Apple is depending on apps like Sparrow to make the iOS platform shine" is backed by nothing. If nothing else, the points about what Apple could do to help devs make more money are useful. Even in this case, I don't see why apple providing support for subscription fees is superior to letting the app creators handle that through online accounts. If the subscription part were handled by Apple, that just means more of a delay when the app makers want to change the structure/pricing of the subscription and even less control over the statistics that they can gather. The point about providing detailed statistics is great. As achampas said, acquisitions and talent poaching is simply an economic reality, and a good one for developers because it gives them better economic prospects and more freedom in choosing their jobs. Overall, a personal disappointment over the fact that Sparrow will no longer be under development is completely acceptable("my favorite email application on both iOS and Mac OS"), but thats not a good reason to decide that some trend is bad and that it should be fixed.

sbtest 14y ago

The sparrow case aside, there does seem to be limited prospects for sustaining a business focused on producing high quality apps. There seems to be very few patterns for success; e.g. acqusition, serialization of a single hit game, or a store with an overlay requiring the least possible effort to produce. Obviously exceptions can be found, but the idea that the app environment could be modified to make other types of businesses more viable likely has some truth to it.

pwthornton 14y ago

I'm torn on this: http://interchangeproject.org/2012/07/20/goodbye-sparrow/ http://interchangeproject.org/2012/07/20/goodbye-sparrow/ On one hand, I think this could be great for Gmail and even the wider world of email by bringing Sparrow's great UI/UX work to a bigger audience and more platforms and experiences. Gmail's engineers and back-end technology + Sparrow's UI/UX team seems like a match made in heaven. On the other hand, this is the end of the fantastic iPhone and Mac apps. Eventually bugs or incompatibilities with new OSes will end of life them, and Google does not have a good track record of making good native experiences for any platform other than Android. I hope that doesn't continue. The worst thing for me would be if Google took this talent and only improved the Web experience, while also no longer delivering a good iOS experience. Good should take the Sparrow iOS app and make it into the official Gmail app for the platform. They should then take parts of it for the official Android app. After that, the Mac Sparrow app should become the basis for future Mac and Windows Gmail apps.

cooldeal 14y ago

A few points: 1) The app store pioneered the 99c app. Windows shareware was usually $30 before that(think WinRAR, WinZip). A $5 price is considered outrageous now. 2) Apple does not provide a way for developers to charge for paid upgrades

stevenwei 14y ago

1) Allow developers to charge monthly/annual subscription pricing. This is possible via IAP, and some apps follow this model, but unfortunately in a world of $.99 apps users just aren't willing to pay a subscription fee for a utility app. 2) Allow developers to track the success of social and internet ad campaigns. I agree that this would be very useful, although again at a price point of $10 or below (minus 30%), all you're going to find out is that your ad campaign has negative ROI anyway. Either way, these suggestions do nothing to prevent developers from getting acquihired if a big company comes along with a big offer - especially if they've previously raised a round of funding. Marco has managed to avoid acquisition because he bootstrapped Instapaper entirely on his own, retains full decision making power, doesn't have investors pushing him for an exit, and hasn't received an offer he's satisfied with (yet). But I would say his situation is probably the exception rather than the norm.

tomflack 14y ago

To further this goal I'd love to see Apple add paid upgrades. Possibly with a "can't just be bug fixes, must have significant new features" rule. This will probably happen when one of the big Apple Mac app store apps needs an update. Aperture, Logic, Final Cut...

SudarshanP 14y ago

I hope SublimeText goes opensource soon. Else if they sell out, a lot of customers will have to become sad. I guess Vi/Emacs are still the best choice :)