5 ms·

I wish these guys regulated Microsoft even half as much as they go after apple. I dream of a day where I can just walk into the local electronics store and buy

I wish these guys regulated Microsoft even half as much as they go after apple. I dream of a day where I can just walk into the local electronics store and buy a computer with Linux installed. I don't really care about Apple since they're only around 25% of the smartphone market and 10% of the PC market.

kalleboo 2y ago
Wouldn't that be regulating PC manufacturers/retailers rather than Microsoft? The things they're forcing Apple to allow, Microsoft already allows (installing third-party web browsers and App Stores, choosing default apps, etc)
- f1shy 2y ago
  Follow the money, I guess
- Wytwwww 2y ago
  > The things they're forcing Apple to allow, Microsoft already allows Apple's and oranges? MS doesn't have a phone OS anymore...
nonethewiser 2y ago
> I wish these guys regulated Microsoft even half as much as they go after apple. Kinda sounds like a "show me the man, I'll show you the crime" kinda policy. What specific rules are Microsoft breaking? Just at a high level I would expect less issues from Microsoft because they dont produce as much hardware and windows is more open by design.
Cumpiler69 2y ago
Microsoft's Windows monopoly in desktop computers is far less irelevant today, as desktop computing is less relevant compared to the past due to mobile, and also not a walled garden since you can install apps on Windows outside the Windows Store unlike on iPhone. The things Microsoft is being investigated for is the Monopoly on Office365 services such as bundling Teams by default. Oh and your numbers are totally wrong. iPhone market share is over 80% on US teens making them a dangerous monopoly since teens tend to become grownups at some point.
- weberer 2y ago
  >your numbers are totally wrong >among US teens The numbers are right, you just moved the goal post. Look up the numbers for the EU among all age groups, which is what this regulator has jurisdiction over.
lolinder 2y ago
Is Microsoft still preventing OEMs from installing Linux? Dell sells one, and I see a couple available on Amazon (not counting Chromebooks). I've assumed that you can't buy them at in-person stores because the demand is just way too low and the shops don't want people coming in to complain that something doesn't work the way they expected.
- AnthonyMouse 2y ago
  The general scheme is that they give you a "volume discount" where "volume" is defined as however many computers you're selling, so if you put Linux on more of them then your Windows licensing volume goes down and you lose the discount for all computers. They used to do this in a way that you basically couldn't sell any computers with Linux, but that got them in trouble, so now you can get Linux from the Dell website if you go out and specifically look for it but anybody who makes it a prominent offering or pays for shelf space at Best Buy would still get punished. You can see the evidence of this because there are still Linux-specific OEMs who get out of it by not doing business with Microsoft at all (and it's Google rather than Dell paying for the retail shelf space, because they don't sell Windows machines), whereas you would expect the major OEMs would eat their lunch if there wasn't something stopping them.
  - lolinder 2y ago
    The volume discount theory doesn't really make sense, unless both of these things is true: 1) There's enough demand for prebuilt Linux machines to meaningfully reduce your Windows sales such that you fall into a different discount bracket, and 2) A sufficient percentage of those (apparently significant number of) people who want a Linux box will fall back on Windows rather than looking for another OEM. I'm not buying it. My anecdotal experience suggests that the Venn diagram of "wants an OEM machine" and "wants Linux" has a vanishingly small intersection—the tiny fraction of the population who wants to use Linux are overwhelmingly DIYers when it comes to computers and have opinions about what kind of hardware they use. They might pay someone to build a machine for them, but they're not going to grab one off the shelf. Obviously there are exceptions, but the key question is if those exceptions are sufficient to account for a reduction in a volume discount that would lead to this kind of behavior from OEMs. I'm just not seeing it: far more likely than there being enough in that intersection to pose a threat to volume discounts is that there are simply so few of them that it's not even worth trying. Your anecdote at the end doesn't preclude this, because it makes sense that some OEMs would choose to specialize in a very small niche. And the existence of these specialty OEMs reduces the odds of point 2 holding true—the small number of people who really want this have a place to go already, so the large OEMs would likely lose many of these customers anyway!
esperent 2y ago
> I dream of a day where I can just walk into the local electronics store and buy a computer with Linux installed I guess this has far less to do with Microsoft than with the fact that electronics stores want to actually sell their stock.
dboreham 2y ago
You absolutely can walk into any electronics store (or Costco) and buy a laptop running Linux. It's called "a Chromebook".
CJefferson 2y ago
Every PC shop near me (4) will sell you several linux chromebook laptops.
- skyyler 2y ago
  Additionally, most system builders will have no issue doing a custom request for Ubuntu or Fedora on a computer they build for you. Probably won't come with the same warranty or support as if it came with Windows, but no one is preventing you from buying a computer with Linux pre-installed...
whimsicalism 2y ago
the reason that day isn’t coming has nothing to do with microsoft
scarface_74 2y ago
Microsoft hasn’t forced OEMd to bundle Windows for decades. The fact is hardly anyone wants Linux. Also a Windows license is actually more or less free to OEMs since they can bundle crapware with it and get paid by third parties.
- AnthonyMouse 2y ago
  > The fact is hardly anyone wants Linux. Linux market share keeps increasing over time with a pretty solid growth rate, to the point that Linux + ChromeOS now has the market share that macOS did in 2010 (with non-ChromeOS being the larger portion). For something with minimal promotion or availability in retail stores, what explains that except for increasing numbers of people going out and specifically requesting it? > Also a Windows license is actually more or less free to OEMs since they can bundle crapware with it and get paid by third parties. That's not "free". They could be bundling the crapware with Linux and then keeping the money instead of forking it over to Microsoft.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    ChromeOS is no more what people consider “Linux” than iOS, MacOS etc is considered BSD. https://www.statista.com/statistics/268237/global-market-share-held-by-operating-systems-since-2009/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/268237/global-market-sha... Linux is at less than 5% and was at around 1% in 2012. ChromeOS is at less than 2% and most of that is in schools. Macs had much more than 2% in 2010. > They could be bundling the crapware with Linux and then keeping the money instead of forking it over to Microsoft. What company is going to pay for Linux Crapware?
    - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
      > ChromeOS is no more what people consider “Linux” than iOS, MacOS etc is considered BSD. ChromiumOS is a Linux distribution and ChromeOS is basically ChromiumOS with Google Play etc. Whereas macOS isn't just FreeBSD with the App Store and Safari and in particular it's only licensed to run on Apple's hardware. > Linux is at less than 5% and was at around 1% in 2012. It was around 1% forever, until recently it wasn't. > ChromeOS is at less than 2% and most of that is in schools. Macs had much more than 2% in 2010. Macs had 6% in 2010, which is the same as Linux has now. And the Macs were disproportionately in schools too. Now the Mac market share is above 20%, because eventually the people using it in schools start using it somewhere else, so if people are using non-Windows systems in schools now... > What company is going to pay for Linux Crapware? The same ones paying for Windows Crapware, presumably.
Wytwwww 2y ago
You mean legally mandating all electronics stores to stock computers with Linux installed regardless if there is demand for that or not? Because how else exactly could this work?
margana 2y ago
What are you even talking about? The vast majority of hardware that can run Windows has no technical measures in place to prevent some other operating system from being installed. Windows itself does not prevent third party applications from being installed without Microsoft's permission. Most computers not coming with Linux preinstalled is not because of Microsoft doing anything to achieve that, it's because desktop Linux is just not popular enough for stores to stock systems with it preinstalled.

kalleboo 2y ago

Wouldn't that be regulating PC manufacturers/retailers rather than Microsoft? The things they're forcing Apple to allow, Microsoft already allows (installing third-party web browsers and App Stores, choosing default apps, etc)

f1shy 2y ago
Follow the money, I guess
Wytwwww 2y ago
> The things they're forcing Apple to allow, Microsoft already allows Apple's and oranges? MS doesn't have a phone OS anymore...

nonethewiser 2y ago

> I wish these guys regulated Microsoft even half as much as they go after apple. Kinda sounds like a "show me the man, I'll show you the crime" kinda policy. What specific rules are Microsoft breaking? Just at a high level I would expect less issues from Microsoft because they dont produce as much hardware and windows is more open by design.

Cumpiler69 2y ago

Microsoft's Windows monopoly in desktop computers is far less irelevant today, as desktop computing is less relevant compared to the past due to mobile, and also not a walled garden since you can install apps on Windows outside the Windows Store unlike on iPhone. The things Microsoft is being investigated for is the Monopoly on Office365 services such as bundling Teams by default. Oh and your numbers are totally wrong. iPhone market share is over 80% on US teens making them a dangerous monopoly since teens tend to become grownups at some point.

weberer 2y ago
>your numbers are totally wrong >among US teens The numbers are right, you just moved the goal post. Look up the numbers for the EU among all age groups, which is what this regulator has jurisdiction over.

lolinder 2y ago

Is Microsoft still preventing OEMs from installing Linux? Dell sells one, and I see a couple available on Amazon (not counting Chromebooks). I've assumed that you can't buy them at in-person stores because the demand is just way too low and the shops don't want people coming in to complain that something doesn't work the way they expected.

AnthonyMouse 2y ago
The general scheme is that they give you a "volume discount" where "volume" is defined as however many computers you're selling, so if you put Linux on more of them then your Windows licensing volume goes down and you lose the discount for all computers. They used to do this in a way that you basically couldn't sell any computers with Linux, but that got them in trouble, so now you can get Linux from the Dell website if you go out and specifically look for it but anybody who makes it a prominent offering or pays for shelf space at Best Buy would still get punished. You can see the evidence of this because there are still Linux-specific OEMs who get out of it by not doing business with Microsoft at all (and it's Google rather than Dell paying for the retail shelf space, because they don't sell Windows machines), whereas you would expect the major OEMs would eat their lunch if there wasn't something stopping them.
- lolinder 2y ago
  The volume discount theory doesn't really make sense, unless both of these things is true: 1) There's enough demand for prebuilt Linux machines to meaningfully reduce your Windows sales such that you fall into a different discount bracket, and 2) A sufficient percentage of those (apparently significant number of) people who want a Linux box will fall back on Windows rather than looking for another OEM. I'm not buying it. My anecdotal experience suggests that the Venn diagram of "wants an OEM machine" and "wants Linux" has a vanishingly small intersection—the tiny fraction of the population who wants to use Linux are overwhelmingly DIYers when it comes to computers and have opinions about what kind of hardware they use. They might pay someone to build a machine for them, but they're not going to grab one off the shelf. Obviously there are exceptions, but the key question is if those exceptions are sufficient to account for a reduction in a volume discount that would lead to this kind of behavior from OEMs. I'm just not seeing it: far more likely than there being enough in that intersection to pose a threat to volume discounts is that there are simply so few of them that it's not even worth trying. Your anecdote at the end doesn't preclude this, because it makes sense that some OEMs would choose to specialize in a very small niche. And the existence of these specialty OEMs reduces the odds of point 2 holding true—the small number of people who really want this have a place to go already, so the large OEMs would likely lose many of these customers anyway!

esperent 2y ago

> I dream of a day where I can just walk into the local electronics store and buy a computer with Linux installed I guess this has far less to do with Microsoft than with the fact that electronics stores want to actually sell their stock.

dboreham 2y ago

You absolutely can walk into any electronics store (or Costco) and buy a laptop running Linux. It's called "a Chromebook".

CJefferson 2y ago

Every PC shop near me (4) will sell you several linux chromebook laptops.

skyyler 2y ago
Additionally, most system builders will have no issue doing a custom request for Ubuntu or Fedora on a computer they build for you. Probably won't come with the same warranty or support as if it came with Windows, but no one is preventing you from buying a computer with Linux pre-installed...

whimsicalism 2y ago

the reason that day isn’t coming has nothing to do with microsoft

scarface_74 2y ago

Microsoft hasn’t forced OEMd to bundle Windows for decades. The fact is hardly anyone wants Linux. Also a Windows license is actually more or less free to OEMs since they can bundle crapware with it and get paid by third parties.

AnthonyMouse 2y ago
> The fact is hardly anyone wants Linux. Linux market share keeps increasing over time with a pretty solid growth rate, to the point that Linux + ChromeOS now has the market share that macOS did in 2010 (with non-ChromeOS being the larger portion). For something with minimal promotion or availability in retail stores, what explains that except for increasing numbers of people going out and specifically requesting it? > Also a Windows license is actually more or less free to OEMs since they can bundle crapware with it and get paid by third parties. That's not "free". They could be bundling the crapware with Linux and then keeping the money instead of forking it over to Microsoft.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  ChromeOS is no more what people consider “Linux” than iOS, MacOS etc is considered BSD. https://www.statista.com/statistics/268237/global-market-share-held-by-operating-systems-since-2009/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/268237/global-market-sha... Linux is at less than 5% and was at around 1% in 2012. ChromeOS is at less than 2% and most of that is in schools. Macs had much more than 2% in 2010. > They could be bundling the crapware with Linux and then keeping the money instead of forking it over to Microsoft. What company is going to pay for Linux Crapware?
  - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
    > ChromeOS is no more what people consider “Linux” than iOS, MacOS etc is considered BSD. ChromiumOS is a Linux distribution and ChromeOS is basically ChromiumOS with Google Play etc. Whereas macOS isn't just FreeBSD with the App Store and Safari and in particular it's only licensed to run on Apple's hardware. > Linux is at less than 5% and was at around 1% in 2012. It was around 1% forever, until recently it wasn't. > ChromeOS is at less than 2% and most of that is in schools. Macs had much more than 2% in 2010. Macs had 6% in 2010, which is the same as Linux has now. And the Macs were disproportionately in schools too. Now the Mac market share is above 20%, because eventually the people using it in schools start using it somewhere else, so if people are using non-Windows systems in schools now... > What company is going to pay for Linux Crapware? The same ones paying for Windows Crapware, presumably.

Wytwwww 2y ago

You mean legally mandating all electronics stores to stock computers with Linux installed regardless if there is demand for that or not? Because how else exactly could this work?

margana 2y ago

What are you even talking about? The vast majority of hardware that can run Windows has no technical measures in place to prevent some other operating system from being installed. Windows itself does not prevent third party applications from being installed without Microsoft's permission. Most computers not coming with Linux preinstalled is not because of Microsoft doing anything to achieve that, it's because desktop Linux is just not popular enough for stores to stock systems with it preinstalled.