4 ms·

H1B is a pain-in-the-ass, plain and simple. It’s designed to hoard a particularly talented and desperate group of people willing to do anything to get into the

H1B is a pain-in-the-ass, plain and simple. It’s designed to hoard a particularly talented and desperate group of people willing to do anything to get into the US and work in big tech. After the Twitter saga, two of my acquaintances had to leave the US after being sacked. The H1B is tied to your job, and switching employers is incredibly stressful since you need to find someone willing to sponsor you. If you’re aiming to stay in the US permanently, the path to a green card and eventual citizenship is just as thorny. Many people go there on an H1B, work in big tech, buy houses, get fired, and often leave the US in shambles. Countries like Germany, Finland, and the Netherlands handle this visa process better. If you work in tech, you get a Blue Card that transitions into a green card in three years, and then you can apply for citizenship after five. After a year, your visa is no longer tied to your employer, so you can switch jobs. But these countries suffer from bureaucracy and extreme language fragmentation. It’s hard to get excited about learning German and joining a local tech company for peanuts in salary.

sashank_1509 2y ago
As long as you’re not Indian or Chinese, you can get a green card in 2-3 years in US
- rednafi 2y ago
  Indeed. As you should. Indians and Chinese are no longer considered minorities in the US, so it makes sense to curb the influx. However, the problem is that the US tech market is volatile, with zero job security. Since H1B makes it difficult to switch employers, tech companies often exploit this and pay these workers disproportionately. On top of that, there’s always the looming risk of getting fired before securing a green card, and the stress of that hangs over you constantly. This part could definitely be improved.
  - dyauspitr 2y ago
    How is 3% of the population not a minority?
    - rednafi 2y ago
      The quota is fixed per country. For India and China it gets filled immediately. So the sentiment is that they’re no longer considered minority as quotas from other countries are barely filled.
      - anon291 2y ago
        And honestly, it's kind of nuts, when you think about it. For India at least, it's better compared to the EU than a 'country'. The concept of 'India' is like 'Christendom'. It describes a very broad cultural region. But realistically, the gulf between culture in one state in India and another is as different as the gulf in culture between the UK and France. It's a bizarre accident of history that they even are under one sovereign jurisdiction. The languages are different (even more diverse than Europe, since there's two independent language families), the writing system is different, the food is different, the religion is different (despite what everyone says, Hinduism is a broad spectrum of beliefs; it's like classifying Judaism and Islam together as the same thing not to mention massive non-Dharmic cultural groups that have also been there a very long time and are sufficiently 'Indian'). That is to say... if the goal is diversity, which is a good goal, you should probably split some of these larger countries up. Especially countries like India which are not dominated by any one ethnic group. There is no equivalent to the Han Chinese in India. Unfortunately, the basic precept here seems to be 'has brown skin' makes you exactly the same as anyone else with brown skin, which leads to absurdities, such as California's old anti-miscegenation law that considered Indians and Mexicans the same race.
        rednafi 2y ago
        It's nuts but at the same time, removing the limit isn't viable as in that case India and China will clog up the entire system.
        anon291 2y ago
        I was suggesting a limit based on subnational distinctions or another form of delineation. Although in general, I tend to be anti immigration, so I would rather just see a total cap and no quota.
  - bugglebeetle 2y ago
    > Indians and Chinese are no longer considered minorities in the US, so it makes sense to curb the influx. Why would this ever be rational a basis for immigration?
    - rednafi 2y ago
      It's not rational at all. India and China are huge, and subjecting them to the same quota as a tiny island is irrational.
      - toomuchtodo 2y ago
        What would be rational quotas for countries that have over 1B people?
        addicted 2y ago
        How about no quota at all based on nationality (actually place of birth) when you already have a limit of 65k visas a year being apportioned by lottery.
        toomuchtodo 2y ago
        Very unlikely. The per country quota is to limit influence of any one country via immigration.
        rednafi 2y ago
        Then one country would clog up the entire system.
      - thfuran 2y ago
        Why should the population of the country even be a factor in deciding how many immigrants we'll accept from there?
    - tomohelix 2y ago
      Not saying it is the actual reason, but one rationale is that you don't want a sudden influx of a single demographic taking over the nation and disproportionately affect policy making and culture.
- gunian 2y ago
  is there some stat that supports this? because I feel like foreign relations between India and the US have never beeen better
  - mrkstu 2y ago
    This is presumably about the per-country limits on H1Bs- i.e. most countries aren't hitting their quota, so if you apply for one as a citizen of most countries, the wait is comparatively minimal.
    - gunian 2y ago
      ahhh I misunderstood I thought there was just one global pool for H1B did not realize there were per country limits
  - rednafi 2y ago
    I saw it first hand. My Indian colleagues mentioned that their queue to transition from H1B to green card is impossibly long. It’s just how the numbers work. There are just too many Indians applicants and not enough seats.
  - redditor98654 2y ago
    What do you mean? My green card application has been pending for 9 years. Based on current projections I won’t get it in less than 100 years or so. Indian. This is a well known fact.
    - gunian 2y ago
      my bad I misread I thought this was for the H1B which I read had a fixed quota hope all goes well with your application does this mean if you change your citizenship to a low population country by paying 100k and then applying it would speed up the process? or does USCIS have some law that prevents that
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - 2y ago
- jltsiren 2y ago
  It's 3-4 years these days, unless you qualify for EB-1. Every step in the process takes a few months longer than it used to. But those numbers are not comparable. In most European countries, you first spend a number of years on a temporary residence permit, and then you can apply for permanent residence. That application typically takes less than a year to process. In the US, you can apply for permanent residence any time, but the application process takes several years.
- zoomthrowaway 2y ago
  2-3 years are no longer true. rest of the world (aka not Indian or Chinese) wait time if starting now is more like 5-6 years and possibly longer
jsiepkes 2y ago
> It’s hard to get excited about learning German and joining a local tech company for peanuts in salary. I don't know about Germany but in the Netherlands there is also a minimum income restriction in order to get a knowledge worker visa. I would be surprised if Germany didn't have one as well.
- n_ary 2y ago
  BlueCard has very specific floor too. The Op describing the process using some super utopian terms excluding all the same thorny bits but I suspect Op is not familiar with the requirements too.
  - rednafi 2y ago
    I went through the process a year ago, and it wasn’t easy. Yes, there’s a minimum income requirement, and European bureaucracy is a nightmare. On top of that, salaries here are peanuts compared to what I used to make. While the US is more expensive and its healthcare system can be a pain, I still managed to save more money there than I can now. Europe is just poorer, and the tech industry is much smaller. In terms of opportunities, cities like Berlin, Amsterdam, or London don’t even come close to North Carolina, let alone SF/ NYC. On top of that, the language barrier is frustrating—I can’t imagine anyone being thrilled about learning a new language, earning less, and working in relative obscurity. Still, I moved because dealing with the H1B process in the US was even worse.
    - jsiepkes 2y ago
      > I still managed to save more money there than I can now. Europe is just poorer, In Europe (at least speaking from the perspective of the Netherlands) a lot of money / resources go to fee's employer have to pay, unlimited sick days, maternity leave (also for men), protection from getting fired, the fact that you have more humane rights with your blue card then a H1B, etc. That stuff costs a society money and someone has to pay for that. It's all money which is there, but you don't get to "see it" because often it is paid directly by employers. It is basically all wealth redistribution which is simply not there in the US. So sure, it means you will be able to pocket less money, but that doesn't directly mean there is less money in the system.
owenwil 2y ago
In my experience, Canada does an excellent job where this program fails. I entered on the high skill “express entry” visa for a tech job. After 18 months we had permanent residency. After 3.5 years, we had citizenship. It was all online and easy enough for us to do ourselves with minimal stress. During the express entry period where you are employer sponsored, unlike in the US, if you get fired, you have until your visa expires to find another sponsoring job (the visa is valid for 5 years IIRC). I’m pretty happy with how it went and glad we can settle, I’m not sure we would have chosen Canada if a rapid permanent path hadn’t been clear up front.
- Ralo 2y ago
  Were you very specialized in a certain field, filling a senior position? As a Canadian with a CS degree who's been trying to get into tech for years, this is horrible to hear. We have thousands of new grads in Canada who end up working in fast food because they get passed over for cheaper immigrants. I've seen it first hand, all my tech friends have seen it. We're worse than the US for this, and we have even less tech jobs here. We don't need to be bring more entry level talent, we have tons of that not being utilized here. There's plenty of talk about greedy corporations until the topic of using immigration to increase their profits comes up. Then it's silence.
  - owenwil 2y ago
    I was coming in as a ‘normal’ developer design manager, but that is likely fairly specialized. I’m guessing that was in my favor. I know others with a couple of years engineering experience under their belt having a similar experience. But yes, the lack of jobs can be an issue. Lots of folks I know, myself included, now working remote for US-based companies. In tech in Canada, usually we aren’t hiring immigrants because they’re cheaper—visas, moving someone, etc, is a huge expense. It’s often more that they’re the best possible fit for the role. After Covid with remote work etc, I don’t think there’s as much of that immigration going on, though—I don’t know of many Canadian companies sponsoring right now.
    - Ralo 2y ago
johnnyanmac 2y ago
>After the Twitter saga, two of my acquaintances had to leave the US after being sacked. The H1B is tied to your job, and switching employers is incredibly stressful since you need to find someone willing to sponsor you. Easiest way to fix this issue. Tie the Visa to a state or federal government. They check in and can stay as long as they are working in X industry in potentially Y state. Still not as easy to move, but the company has much less leverage to keep an H1B hostage.

sashank_1509 2y ago

As long as you’re not Indian or Chinese, you can get a green card in 2-3 years in US

rednafi 2y ago
Indeed. As you should. Indians and Chinese are no longer considered minorities in the US, so it makes sense to curb the influx. However, the problem is that the US tech market is volatile, with zero job security. Since H1B makes it difficult to switch employers, tech companies often exploit this and pay these workers disproportionately. On top of that, there’s always the looming risk of getting fired before securing a green card, and the stress of that hangs over you constantly. This part could definitely be improved.
- dyauspitr 2y ago
  How is 3% of the population not a minority?
  - rednafi 2y ago
    The quota is fixed per country. For India and China it gets filled immediately. So the sentiment is that they’re no longer considered minority as quotas from other countries are barely filled.
    - anon291 2y ago
      And honestly, it's kind of nuts, when you think about it. For India at least, it's better compared to the EU than a 'country'. The concept of 'India' is like 'Christendom'. It describes a very broad cultural region. But realistically, the gulf between culture in one state in India and another is as different as the gulf in culture between the UK and France. It's a bizarre accident of history that they even are under one sovereign jurisdiction. The languages are different (even more diverse than Europe, since there's two independent language families), the writing system is different, the food is different, the religion is different (despite what everyone says, Hinduism is a broad spectrum of beliefs; it's like classifying Judaism and Islam together as the same thing not to mention massive non-Dharmic cultural groups that have also been there a very long time and are sufficiently 'Indian'). That is to say... if the goal is diversity, which is a good goal, you should probably split some of these larger countries up. Especially countries like India which are not dominated by any one ethnic group. There is no equivalent to the Han Chinese in India. Unfortunately, the basic precept here seems to be 'has brown skin' makes you exactly the same as anyone else with brown skin, which leads to absurdities, such as California's old anti-miscegenation law that considered Indians and Mexicans the same race.
      - rednafi 2y ago
        It's nuts but at the same time, removing the limit isn't viable as in that case India and China will clog up the entire system.
        anon291 2y ago
        I was suggesting a limit based on subnational distinctions or another form of delineation. Although in general, I tend to be anti immigration, so I would rather just see a total cap and no quota.
- bugglebeetle 2y ago
  > Indians and Chinese are no longer considered minorities in the US, so it makes sense to curb the influx. Why would this ever be rational a basis for immigration?
  - rednafi 2y ago
    It's not rational at all. India and China are huge, and subjecting them to the same quota as a tiny island is irrational.
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      What would be rational quotas for countries that have over 1B people?
      - addicted 2y ago
        How about no quota at all based on nationality (actually place of birth) when you already have a limit of 65k visas a year being apportioned by lottery.
        toomuchtodo 2y ago
        Very unlikely. The per country quota is to limit influence of any one country via immigration.
        rednafi 2y ago
        Then one country would clog up the entire system.
    - thfuran 2y ago
      Why should the population of the country even be a factor in deciding how many immigrants we'll accept from there?
  - tomohelix 2y ago
    Not saying it is the actual reason, but one rationale is that you don't want a sudden influx of a single demographic taking over the nation and disproportionately affect policy making and culture.
gunian 2y ago
is there some stat that supports this? because I feel like foreign relations between India and the US have never beeen better
- mrkstu 2y ago
  This is presumably about the per-country limits on H1Bs- i.e. most countries aren't hitting their quota, so if you apply for one as a citizen of most countries, the wait is comparatively minimal.
  - gunian 2y ago
    ahhh I misunderstood I thought there was just one global pool for H1B did not realize there were per country limits
- rednafi 2y ago
  I saw it first hand. My Indian colleagues mentioned that their queue to transition from H1B to green card is impossibly long. It’s just how the numbers work. There are just too many Indians applicants and not enough seats.
- redditor98654 2y ago
  What do you mean? My green card application has been pending for 9 years. Based on current projections I won’t get it in less than 100 years or so. Indian. This is a well known fact.
  - gunian 2y ago
    my bad I misread I thought this was for the H1B which I read had a fixed quota hope all goes well with your application does this mean if you change your citizenship to a low population country by paying 100k and then applying it would speed up the process? or does USCIS have some law that prevents that
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- 2y ago
jltsiren 2y ago
It's 3-4 years these days, unless you qualify for EB-1. Every step in the process takes a few months longer than it used to. But those numbers are not comparable. In most European countries, you first spend a number of years on a temporary residence permit, and then you can apply for permanent residence. That application typically takes less than a year to process. In the US, you can apply for permanent residence any time, but the application process takes several years.
zoomthrowaway 2y ago
2-3 years are no longer true. rest of the world (aka not Indian or Chinese) wait time if starting now is more like 5-6 years and possibly longer

jsiepkes 2y ago

> It’s hard to get excited about learning German and joining a local tech company for peanuts in salary. I don't know about Germany but in the Netherlands there is also a minimum income restriction in order to get a knowledge worker visa. I would be surprised if Germany didn't have one as well.

n_ary 2y ago
BlueCard has very specific floor too. The Op describing the process using some super utopian terms excluding all the same thorny bits but I suspect Op is not familiar with the requirements too.
- rednafi 2y ago
  I went through the process a year ago, and it wasn’t easy. Yes, there’s a minimum income requirement, and European bureaucracy is a nightmare. On top of that, salaries here are peanuts compared to what I used to make. While the US is more expensive and its healthcare system can be a pain, I still managed to save more money there than I can now. Europe is just poorer, and the tech industry is much smaller. In terms of opportunities, cities like Berlin, Amsterdam, or London don’t even come close to North Carolina, let alone SF/ NYC. On top of that, the language barrier is frustrating—I can’t imagine anyone being thrilled about learning a new language, earning less, and working in relative obscurity. Still, I moved because dealing with the H1B process in the US was even worse.
  - jsiepkes 2y ago
    > I still managed to save more money there than I can now. Europe is just poorer, In Europe (at least speaking from the perspective of the Netherlands) a lot of money / resources go to fee's employer have to pay, unlimited sick days, maternity leave (also for men), protection from getting fired, the fact that you have more humane rights with your blue card then a H1B, etc. That stuff costs a society money and someone has to pay for that. It's all money which is there, but you don't get to "see it" because often it is paid directly by employers. It is basically all wealth redistribution which is simply not there in the US. So sure, it means you will be able to pocket less money, but that doesn't directly mean there is less money in the system.

owenwil 2y ago

In my experience, Canada does an excellent job where this program fails. I entered on the high skill “express entry” visa for a tech job. After 18 months we had permanent residency. After 3.5 years, we had citizenship. It was all online and easy enough for us to do ourselves with minimal stress. During the express entry period where you are employer sponsored, unlike in the US, if you get fired, you have until your visa expires to find another sponsoring job (the visa is valid for 5 years IIRC). I’m pretty happy with how it went and glad we can settle, I’m not sure we would have chosen Canada if a rapid permanent path hadn’t been clear up front.

Ralo 2y ago
Were you very specialized in a certain field, filling a senior position? As a Canadian with a CS degree who's been trying to get into tech for years, this is horrible to hear. We have thousands of new grads in Canada who end up working in fast food because they get passed over for cheaper immigrants. I've seen it first hand, all my tech friends have seen it. We're worse than the US for this, and we have even less tech jobs here. We don't need to be bring more entry level talent, we have tons of that not being utilized here. There's plenty of talk about greedy corporations until the topic of using immigration to increase their profits comes up. Then it's silence.
- owenwil 2y ago
  I was coming in as a ‘normal’ developer design manager, but that is likely fairly specialized. I’m guessing that was in my favor. I know others with a couple of years engineering experience under their belt having a similar experience. But yes, the lack of jobs can be an issue. Lots of folks I know, myself included, now working remote for US-based companies. In tech in Canada, usually we aren’t hiring immigrants because they’re cheaper—visas, moving someone, etc, is a huge expense. It’s often more that they’re the best possible fit for the role. After Covid with remote work etc, I don’t think there’s as much of that immigration going on, though—I don’t know of many Canadian companies sponsoring right now.
  - Ralo 2y ago

johnnyanmac 2y ago

>After the Twitter saga, two of my acquaintances had to leave the US after being sacked. The H1B is tied to your job, and switching employers is incredibly stressful since you need to find someone willing to sponsor you. Easiest way to fix this issue. Tie the Visa to a state or federal government. They check in and can stay as long as they are working in X industry in potentially Y state. Still not as easy to move, but the company has much less leverage to keep an H1B hostage.