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Businesses aren't in business to prioritize the customer point of view [1]. They are not in business to prioritize the employees point of view. They are in bu

Businesses aren't in business to prioritize the customer point of view [1]. They are not in business to prioritize the employees point of view. They are in business to maximise revenue, and profit. If you work for a business, your job is to work on their priorities. By all means object or quit if you don't agree with them. (And yes, assume you'll be fired for refusing to do their tasks.) If you're a customer, and you font like their behavior stop being their customer. You have agency. Use it. [1] good customer service, good customer experience, are all good for revenue. Happy customers are the ultimate success. But maximizing the revenue from those happy customers is very much the business goal.

Aeolun 2y ago
That’s nonsense. Some businesses exist purely to fund the ability to do exactly that thing as well as possible. Making money is a means to an end. It’s just that they always seem to lose to those that optimize for money.
- bruce511 2y ago
  I think some small businesses start because the owner wants to do something well. Sometimes this aligns with some group of customers and it's sustainable. Most small businesses fail of course. Usually because while they do a task well, they're bad at the business part. Once you get large (McDonald's in the parent thread) the focus is necessarily on the business part. At that scale it's not "doing the thing as well as possible " - it is "making money as well as possible". Clearly lots of people use McDonald's. So they provide customers with satisfaction. But that doesn't mean they aren't out to maximize revenue.
  - matthewdgreen 2y ago
    One of the things that’s surprising about traveling to Europe and Japan is that this revenue maximizing business strategy isn’t as prevalent. You don’t see the same upsells everywhere and tipping culture is also mostly non-existent. Many US businesses managed to behave in a manner that was vastly less extractive to their customers for most of the last century as well. It really is possible to care about the quality of your business in some cultures, it’s just harder to do so here today.
    - _DeadFred_ 2y ago
      Exactly. Enshitification wouldn't be a concept if there wasn't a previous better point to reference.
    - bruce511 2y ago
      It's exactly harder but when customers prioritize price above everything it's hard to succeed if you offer better, but charge more. The hard truth is that American consumers care only about price, and so businesses optimize for that (or go under). Which means they lean into other sources of revenue, or ways to reduce costs. Elsewhere people care about value more than price, and are willing to spend more to get more. Restaurants post the real price (including service) because that's what it costs. Ryanair exists to fill the need for those who want low price above all else. KLM exists for those who want a better experience and are prepared to pay more.
      - thimabi 2y ago
        Do you think it is possible for a society to switch from emphasizing price to emphasizing value? If so, how do you think such a change would take place?
        bruce511 2y ago
        It's really hard for cultures to change. Outside of a major event (WW2 scale event) its likely to take multiple generations. It can happen locally. Farmers markets are a thing. Supporting local owner-run, not chain, restaurants is a thing. But in big cities, or nationally? Probably not in pur lifetime. But it doesn't really matter what others do. It starts with what you do, for yourself. Look around, find small-scale suppliers. Support local producers where you can, and so on. The quality is usually better.
        matthewdgreen 2y ago
        The problem is that the number of suppliers seems to be constantly going down. Chains are taking over public spaces, successful smaller companies get bought out, and the successful independent ones eventually get a new CEO who is incentivized to maximize profits (see e.g., Chipotle hiring Taco Bell's CEO.)
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    McDonalds has fallen so far in the past few decades. I used to eat there or at least grab a soda several times a week. I never go there anymore. The kiosks suck; I refuse to use them, but they don't staff the counter half the time so there's no other way to order. The drive-thru expects you've already ordered on the app. Fuck that. It's all way too complicated. I want a Big Mac meal with a coke. That used to take me 3 seconds to order and I had it on a tray in about another minute. Now I have to dick around on the kiosk for a couple of minutes, pay, and then wait 5-10 minutes for the food. It's absurd.
    - botanical76 2y ago
      This is a bizarre take to me. If food is on my tray in 60 seconds, I'm concerned what corners they are cutting to serve food this fast. It sounds terribly stressful for the employees. How can 5-10 minutes be considered slow? I think in any case, this is an entirely different qualm than the other issues, like taking orders only via kiosk, or constantly up-selling you during the order. Personally, I hate the McDonald's app. All the vouchers seem quite plainly optimized to encourage you to come back. I hate this kind of psychological micro-optimization of human behaviours. I would take a ten minute order every time if they stopped trying to manipulate me.
      - jodrellblank 2y ago
        This is a classic McDonalds counter: https://c8.alamy.com/comp/D3A1A6/dpa-customers-of-the-us-fast-food-supplier-mcdonalds-stand-in-line-D3A1A6.jpg https://c8.alamy.com/comp/D3A1A6/dpa-customers-of-the-us-fas... behind the counter-guy, in that wide silver opening, is a black plastic slope with with burgers queuing up. The cooks are constantly cooking, even when nobody has ordered anything, and that means they can get the efficiency boost of making 5 Big Macs at the same time - laying out 5 boxes, 5 buns, 5 patties cooking, etc. - and with no customer waiting on them, there need be no immediate rush[1]. The cashier only picks one up and puts it on your tray, much less than 60 seconds and no stress[1]. Contrast with Subway where the cashier has to assemble one custom sandwich at a time while the customer and queue of waiting people all watch (stressor); they can not get custom sandwiches into muscle memory, or the efficiency of doing several at once (slow), and the cashier delaying for a moment doesn't relieve pressure by letting the buffer fill, it just adds more pressure. If McDonalds is now taking 5-10 minutes for a typical order, what has gone wrong with their fast-food-factory-production-line design? [1] Maybe it isn't actually low stress or no-rush in McDonalds, but that design of food service could be.
  - dspillett 2y ago
    > Most small businesses fail of course. Usually because while they do a task well, they're bad at the business part. Some small businesses fail because larger ones see their initial success and compete by making a slightly worse product a bit cheaper. Sometimes a significantly worse product. Once the superior but smaller competition is either out of business or has been forced to reduce their quality to try compete on price, the bigger business can either reduce the quality & price further (the big business will usually win in this sort of race-to-the-bottom because they can afford to take losses on individual products for a time, where a smaller business cannot) or bump their price up to improve margins. It sometimes isn't that the small business is bad at the business part, but that they refuse to play dirty even if playing dirty is the only way to compete. It is easier to rationalise some tactics in a bigger company, because there is no one who has to look the customer in the eye who is also making product quality affecting decisions.
photonthug 2y ago
The old "use your agency" response never gets old does it, no matter how much consumer alternatives are whittled away, and no matter how much the abusive corporate behaviour gets ratcheted up and normalized. Do you actually make a profit yourself from forcing ads on paying customers who can't choose to avoid your services, or just aspire to one day?
- bruce511 2y ago
  Thats a cop out. There are lots of alternatives to McDonald's. There are lots of alternatives to most things. Some cost more money though. That's kinda the point.
  - photonthug 2y ago
    What if I can't drive all the way to an ad-free restaurant or for that matter an ad-free gas pump? What if I buy a plane ticket to get out of this bad situation and the airline is using the emergency PA to harass their captive audience of paying customers to join their miles club? What can't be avoided must endured, but there is no reason for people like you to insist that this is fine or normal, or that it's something one can opt out of. You're actively building the dystopia when you do that
    - shiroiushi 2y ago
      >What if I can't drive all the way to an ad-free restaurant Eating at a restaurant is a luxury. If you don't like the experience, don't go (or don't go back). You're free to make your own food with stuff you buy at the supermarket, and you'll most likely get something healthier and much lower-priced. The entire point of a restaurant is to pay more money, frequently a LOT more, for a combination of convenience, service, ambiance, and food that might not be so easy for you to make at home (e.g. pizza) due to skill or equipment limitations.
      - notpushkin 2y ago
        So at least the supermarket should be ad-free, right?
bryanrasmussen 2y ago
As others make clear here you have agency in theory, but in practice your ability to use that agency is very much dependent on how well the world enables the exercise of that agency. Something to think about, interdependence and all that.
entropi 2y ago
Badmouthing bullshit practices of a company is also a part of the agency here. E.g. Yes, I hate that McDonalds (like tons of other companies) is incessantly bugging me and quite blatantly trying to upsell me. As a result, I rarely go to such places anymore. So they lose my business. But I will also complain out loud. This is part of the deal with bullshitting your customer base. This is part of my agency. Losing me as a customer, as well as getting badmouthed left and right is the cost of extracting that 3 additional cents from me. Now the company also has a choice.
MetaWhirledPeas 2y ago
> They are in business to maximise revenue, and profit. Correction, "they" are not a hivemind with one goal, they are a collection of individuals with individual goals to maximize their own profit. If some marketing employee can get a bonus or promotion by showing ephemeral monetary gains at the expense of the long-term integrity of the product, they'll jump all over that.
maeil 2y ago
It does not have to be this way. This should not be claimed as some kind of law of gravity-like nature of the universe. Businesses have operated in an enormous variety of manners over the years and continue to do so. Businesses have agency. Just look at EA vs Nintendo for one. And I'm not even a Nintendo fan.

Aeolun 2y ago

That’s nonsense. Some businesses exist purely to fund the ability to do exactly that thing as well as possible. Making money is a means to an end. It’s just that they always seem to lose to those that optimize for money.

bruce511 2y ago
I think some small businesses start because the owner wants to do something well. Sometimes this aligns with some group of customers and it's sustainable. Most small businesses fail of course. Usually because while they do a task well, they're bad at the business part. Once you get large (McDonald's in the parent thread) the focus is necessarily on the business part. At that scale it's not "doing the thing as well as possible " - it is "making money as well as possible". Clearly lots of people use McDonald's. So they provide customers with satisfaction. But that doesn't mean they aren't out to maximize revenue.
- matthewdgreen 2y ago
  One of the things that’s surprising about traveling to Europe and Japan is that this revenue maximizing business strategy isn’t as prevalent. You don’t see the same upsells everywhere and tipping culture is also mostly non-existent. Many US businesses managed to behave in a manner that was vastly less extractive to their customers for most of the last century as well. It really is possible to care about the quality of your business in some cultures, it’s just harder to do so here today.
  - _DeadFred_ 2y ago
    Exactly. Enshitification wouldn't be a concept if there wasn't a previous better point to reference.
  - bruce511 2y ago
    It's exactly harder but when customers prioritize price above everything it's hard to succeed if you offer better, but charge more. The hard truth is that American consumers care only about price, and so businesses optimize for that (or go under). Which means they lean into other sources of revenue, or ways to reduce costs. Elsewhere people care about value more than price, and are willing to spend more to get more. Restaurants post the real price (including service) because that's what it costs. Ryanair exists to fill the need for those who want low price above all else. KLM exists for those who want a better experience and are prepared to pay more.
    - thimabi 2y ago
      Do you think it is possible for a society to switch from emphasizing price to emphasizing value? If so, how do you think such a change would take place?
      - bruce511 2y ago
        It's really hard for cultures to change. Outside of a major event (WW2 scale event) its likely to take multiple generations. It can happen locally. Farmers markets are a thing. Supporting local owner-run, not chain, restaurants is a thing. But in big cities, or nationally? Probably not in pur lifetime. But it doesn't really matter what others do. It starts with what you do, for yourself. Look around, find small-scale suppliers. Support local producers where you can, and so on. The quality is usually better.
        matthewdgreen 2y ago
        The problem is that the number of suppliers seems to be constantly going down. Chains are taking over public spaces, successful smaller companies get bought out, and the successful independent ones eventually get a new CEO who is incentivized to maximize profits (see e.g., Chipotle hiring Taco Bell's CEO.)
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  McDonalds has fallen so far in the past few decades. I used to eat there or at least grab a soda several times a week. I never go there anymore. The kiosks suck; I refuse to use them, but they don't staff the counter half the time so there's no other way to order. The drive-thru expects you've already ordered on the app. Fuck that. It's all way too complicated. I want a Big Mac meal with a coke. That used to take me 3 seconds to order and I had it on a tray in about another minute. Now I have to dick around on the kiosk for a couple of minutes, pay, and then wait 5-10 minutes for the food. It's absurd.
  - botanical76 2y ago
    This is a bizarre take to me. If food is on my tray in 60 seconds, I'm concerned what corners they are cutting to serve food this fast. It sounds terribly stressful for the employees. How can 5-10 minutes be considered slow? I think in any case, this is an entirely different qualm than the other issues, like taking orders only via kiosk, or constantly up-selling you during the order. Personally, I hate the McDonald's app. All the vouchers seem quite plainly optimized to encourage you to come back. I hate this kind of psychological micro-optimization of human behaviours. I would take a ten minute order every time if they stopped trying to manipulate me.
    - jodrellblank 2y ago
      This is a classic McDonalds counter: https://c8.alamy.com/comp/D3A1A6/dpa-customers-of-the-us-fast-food-supplier-mcdonalds-stand-in-line-D3A1A6.jpg https://c8.alamy.com/comp/D3A1A6/dpa-customers-of-the-us-fas... behind the counter-guy, in that wide silver opening, is a black plastic slope with with burgers queuing up. The cooks are constantly cooking, even when nobody has ordered anything, and that means they can get the efficiency boost of making 5 Big Macs at the same time - laying out 5 boxes, 5 buns, 5 patties cooking, etc. - and with no customer waiting on them, there need be no immediate rush[1]. The cashier only picks one up and puts it on your tray, much less than 60 seconds and no stress[1]. Contrast with Subway where the cashier has to assemble one custom sandwich at a time while the customer and queue of waiting people all watch (stressor); they can not get custom sandwiches into muscle memory, or the efficiency of doing several at once (slow), and the cashier delaying for a moment doesn't relieve pressure by letting the buffer fill, it just adds more pressure. If McDonalds is now taking 5-10 minutes for a typical order, what has gone wrong with their fast-food-factory-production-line design? [1] Maybe it isn't actually low stress or no-rush in McDonalds, but that design of food service could be.
- dspillett 2y ago
  > Most small businesses fail of course. Usually because while they do a task well, they're bad at the business part. Some small businesses fail because larger ones see their initial success and compete by making a slightly worse product a bit cheaper. Sometimes a significantly worse product. Once the superior but smaller competition is either out of business or has been forced to reduce their quality to try compete on price, the bigger business can either reduce the quality & price further (the big business will usually win in this sort of race-to-the-bottom because they can afford to take losses on individual products for a time, where a smaller business cannot) or bump their price up to improve margins. It sometimes isn't that the small business is bad at the business part, but that they refuse to play dirty even if playing dirty is the only way to compete. It is easier to rationalise some tactics in a bigger company, because there is no one who has to look the customer in the eye who is also making product quality affecting decisions.

photonthug 2y ago

The old "use your agency" response never gets old does it, no matter how much consumer alternatives are whittled away, and no matter how much the abusive corporate behaviour gets ratcheted up and normalized. Do you actually make a profit yourself from forcing ads on paying customers who can't choose to avoid your services, or just aspire to one day?

bruce511 2y ago
Thats a cop out. There are lots of alternatives to McDonald's. There are lots of alternatives to most things. Some cost more money though. That's kinda the point.
- photonthug 2y ago
  What if I can't drive all the way to an ad-free restaurant or for that matter an ad-free gas pump? What if I buy a plane ticket to get out of this bad situation and the airline is using the emergency PA to harass their captive audience of paying customers to join their miles club? What can't be avoided must endured, but there is no reason for people like you to insist that this is fine or normal, or that it's something one can opt out of. You're actively building the dystopia when you do that
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    >What if I can't drive all the way to an ad-free restaurant Eating at a restaurant is a luxury. If you don't like the experience, don't go (or don't go back). You're free to make your own food with stuff you buy at the supermarket, and you'll most likely get something healthier and much lower-priced. The entire point of a restaurant is to pay more money, frequently a LOT more, for a combination of convenience, service, ambiance, and food that might not be so easy for you to make at home (e.g. pizza) due to skill or equipment limitations.
    - notpushkin 2y ago
      So at least the supermarket should be ad-free, right?

bryanrasmussen 2y ago

As others make clear here you have agency in theory, but in practice your ability to use that agency is very much dependent on how well the world enables the exercise of that agency. Something to think about, interdependence and all that.

entropi 2y ago

Badmouthing bullshit practices of a company is also a part of the agency here. E.g. Yes, I hate that McDonalds (like tons of other companies) is incessantly bugging me and quite blatantly trying to upsell me. As a result, I rarely go to such places anymore. So they lose my business. But I will also complain out loud. This is part of the deal with bullshitting your customer base. This is part of my agency. Losing me as a customer, as well as getting badmouthed left and right is the cost of extracting that 3 additional cents from me. Now the company also has a choice.

MetaWhirledPeas 2y ago

> They are in business to maximise revenue, and profit. Correction, "they" are not a hivemind with one goal, they are a collection of individuals with individual goals to maximize their own profit. If some marketing employee can get a bonus or promotion by showing ephemeral monetary gains at the expense of the long-term integrity of the product, they'll jump all over that.

maeil 2y ago

It does not have to be this way. This should not be claimed as some kind of law of gravity-like nature of the universe. Businesses have operated in an enormous variety of manners over the years and continue to do so. Businesses have agency. Just look at EA vs Nintendo for one. And I'm not even a Nintendo fan.