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So I suppose it's just back to the status quo? What has really changed that will make a difference in 2-3 years from now? Israel has sowed a whole fresh generat
by Workaccount2 2y ago
So I suppose it's just back to the status quo? What has really changed that will make a difference in 2-3 years from now? Israel has sowed a whole fresh generation of "I will sacrifice everything to wipe Israel" Palestinian youth.
- quelsolaar 2y agoGaza has changed.
- xg15 2y agoQuite literally.
- techdragon 2y agoIn genuinely morbid moment of being nerd snipped… I wonder if the ordinance dropped per square meter on Gaza is higher than the ordinance dropped be square meter on Vietnam… which was famously bombed so hard that detailed maps needed to be updated in order to accommodate how heavily cratered parts of the country were with heavily cratered hills and slopes literally shifting like a form of mechanical erosion by bombing.
- newsclues 2y agoPrecision bombing today vs carpet bombing to try to hit a target.
- techdragon 2y agoThat’s one potential mitigating factor, but they were also using large bombs like 2000 pounders on targets that I’ve not seen any reputable military commentators agree as justifying such a large bomb… like the typical comment are things like before and after satellite image comparisons and taking it at face value the claimed target exists for the sake of arguing the point… and they would say things like “that building needed 1000 pounds max and that’s probably overkill, you would probably want to just use two 500 pound bombs one on the first pass, and one on the second if it was still standing, heck I’d probably have argued for three 250 pounders bombs with penetration aids and have flow the sortie in a staggered pass so after each drop the next pilot can confirm if the target is still standing and drop theirs if necessary, but using a 2000 pound bomb is nuts on a target that size, they have air superiority and significant ground control to ensure minimal SAM risk from MANPADS, if I had suggested a sortie like this when I was a [whatever their rank was/is], it would have severely hurt my career due to how recklessly wasteful I would have appeared” And that kind of commentary came up a lot in certain circles. Not even arguing the validity of the targets like the whole “hidden bunker under every second building” stuff… just legitimately tactical assessment of construction typical of the region, the cumulative seismic and shock load damage from prior nearly weapon detonations, and the honest appraisal that it was extremely overkill to use bombs that size… it was morbidly educational in a way.
- cnlevy 2y agoThere were 750km of tunnels in Gaza
- mandmandam 2y agoVietnam has an area of 331,000 square km. America dropped over 5 million tonnes of bombs on it over a ten year period. That's 1.51 tonnes/km2/year. Gaza has an area of 365 square km. Israel dropped over 85,000 tonnes of bombs dropped on it over one year [0]. That's 232.88 tonnes/km2/year. Over 150x more. Don't forget! Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas in the world - about 50 times more densely populated than 1970 Vietnam. 50% of whom are children. So, Israel dropped 150x the bombs per year on Gaza, an area 50x more densely populated. Proportionally, Israel's bombardment is 7,500 times worse than Vietnam, on an area that's fully half children. This last year has delegitimized the West's claims to any moral high ground, ever, far, far more than we yet realize. 0 - https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20241107-israel-dropped-over-85000-tons-of-bombs-on-gaza/ https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20241107-israel-dropped-ov...
- techdragon 2y agoThank you for taking the time to do the grim maths… Also, holy ** I thought it was bad and probably going to be maybe 10-25 times higher… based on the utter devastation I have seen in satellite imagery… but over 150 times more… The proportionality math for population density is just… ghastly.
- mandmandam 2y agoI appreciate the thanks... Looking at the horror honestly does take a toll. Still, I'm glad you asked. It's better to have perspective on these things. For anyone who wants to visualize what 85,000 tonnes of bombs looks like, it's about 5.7x the nuke dropped over Hiroshima (Hiroshima is 2.5x bigger than Gaza, and was 16x less densely populated than modern Gaza in 1945). This comparison also helps put Vietnam into perspective - 333x Little Boy over ten years.
- myrmidon 2y agoVietnam is a slightly misleading comparison here I think, because big parts are jungle (counting the whole area downplays the severity of bombing significantly). If you compare heavily bombed WW2 targets, you see similar/higher bomb loads, like 4000 tons for Dresden over 3 days (<10 km^2), or ~18000 tons for the Leuna works (synthfuel refinery, <20 km^2, within 1 year).
- nick_ 2y agoRealistically, West Bank will be gone (totally settled, all Palestinians removed) in 15 years. Gaza will further be ghettoized and, pessimistically, will be basically gone in 50 years or so.
- bluSCALE4 2y agoI don't know why this is downvoted. Do people not realize Gaza was razed to the ground?
- neoromantique 2y agoIf Israeli goals really were to displace Palestinians, maybe they'd start within Israel proper first?
- 7402 2y agoA subtle comment, which may be misunderstood. The point is that they are NOT starting with Israel proper first, where Arabs are and have been citizens for a long time. Palestinians have been elected to the Israeli parliament, and there is an Arab Justice on the Israeli Supreme Court.
- nick_ 2y agoAre you being facetious? If you are, that's awesome and hilarious.
- grumple 2y agoJust in case you are unaware, there are two million Arab Muslims citizens in Israel. Some of them consider themselves Palestinians (which is really a nationalist movement), some do not - but they are the same people / ethnic group that was there during the 48 war. These are full citizens, full members of Israeli society, not the Palestinian non-citizens in East Jerusalem, the West Bank, and Gaza.
- 2y ago
- halflife 2y agoThe entirety of Hamas leadership is gone, Hamas will most likely not going to have control in Gaza (still being debated which mechanism will govern, this is part of the deal), the crossing to Egypt will be handled by foreign countries which will prevent weapon smuggling. And in the broader spectrum, hizballah is not more, Assad is no more, all of Iran’s proxies can no longer support Hamas’ ambitions which basically means the “mokawamma” is dead. So in short, the entire Middle East have changed.
- pydry 2y ago[flagged]
- DrJohanson 2y ago> As the Hamas leadership pointed out, this objective failed. Israel's objective from day one has not been to expel Hamas from Gaza (that's virtually impossible), but to remove it from power. And if the rumors about the ceasefire are true (and if the ceasefire is going to be respected), that's what's going to happen.
- culi 2y agoHamas is the casus belli that they spent decades creating
- breckenedge 2y agoYou make it sound like Hamas was passive in this. Baiting your enemy into attacking you in order to galvanize your side still requires them taking the bait. It’s a legitimate strategy, just not a very nice one. See also: US/Japan relations ahead of WW2.
- hmcq6 2y ago> It’s a legitimate strategy It's a legitimate strategy for manufacturing consent not for international conflict. Being a belligerent occupier is not a legitimate strategy for international conflict.
- Qem 2y ago[flagged]
- Sabinus 2y ago>colonial apartheid character How does this square with the Palestinians inside Israel with citizenship having the same rights as Jewish Israeli ones? Execution issues and favoritism of the ethnostate majority aside.
- typon 2y ago[flagged]
- dmix 2y agoOf any of Israel's wars in recent history none has decimated their regional enemies as much as this. Every way you cut it they are in a much more secure position militarily. Iran (aka Lebanon/Syria) losing so badly is more important than Hamas surviving because that was the cludgle that threatened them from punishing Gaza too harshly (for ex: America pushed Israel very hard not to provoke Lebanon after Oct 7 and we saw how that turned out). Any future Hamas actions will inherently be less secure as their external help is now crippled.
- HDThoreaun 2y agoIsrael was in an extremely secure position on October 6th. They blew it by getting soft on border security, a mistake they won’t make again. There was absolutely zero reason a single hamas fighter should’ve been able to escape Gaza.
- dmix 2y agoYes reading about the insecurity of the military outposts near the border, one only filled with all-female 20yr old comms people and only a couple guards with rifles, another base full of unarmed students in training, and the general slow response of some of the QRF was pretty shocking. Proper military response took hours to show up in some cases. It's not like the giant Ukraine border, it should be easier to manage. But I'm no expert...
- kanbara 2y agowhat’s wrong with women?
- mrkeen 2y agoA good first step for border security would be to declare where those borders are.
- bbqfog 2y agoIsrael is weaker politically and internationally than it has ever been, dramatically so. It can only have military superiority as long as western nations are supplying it with weapons and political cover.
- tdeck 2y agoGaza is completely unlivable and more Palestinians can be "persuaded" to move abroad now that they literally have no infrastructure to survive.
- Auracle 2y agoNo country wants them.
- cbeach 2y agoIt's a telling statement about the militant nature of Gazans that not even religiously-aligned neighbouring countries will accept them as immigrants.
- mkoubaa 2y agoThey neighboring countries are allowed sovereignty by the west with the condition that they do what Israel tells them to do
- sershe 2y agoThis doesn't make sense on multiple levels. First of all, why wouldn't Israel want Gazans to go away? All of them somehow moving to Egypt or Syria might in fact be the dream outcome for Israel. As it stands, the track record of Gazans avoiding "oppression" by joining their co-religionists is being kicked out of Jordan for being a disruptive influence, and then playing the main role in turning Lebanon into a failed state. No wonder Egypt doesn't want them! Given that many Gazans do migrate individually, it might even get worse with time - the more capable and less political a Gazan is, the more likely they would be to migrate away, leading to a vicious cycle on the margins
- bko 2y agoHonest question, but why haven't there been "I will sacrifice everything to wipe [country]" generations sowing havoc on neighbors after Dresden, Nagasaki, Nanjing or others?
- smashah 2y agoOh because the a lot of the apparatchiks of the Nazi and Imperial Japanese regimes were absorbed into the western countries (operation paperclip, unit 731 amnesties, ratlines => colonia dignidad, jakarta method masterminded by Nazis mindset in the CIA) and the remaining nazis were propped up by the allies in west germany to continue their reign after all the dust was settled after which they eventually and successfully absorbed east germany. Note; Germany was never denazified. Ok now a double honest question, why do zionists have unlimited justifications for committing a holocaust over the last 15 months+? And how many oceans of Palestinian children's blood does it take to wash away German guilt?
- grumple 2y ago[flagged]
- smashah 2y agoFascinating! Now imagine how offensive it is to normal people for zionists to actually commit a holocaust and make unlimited justifications for it while crying victim! This is exactly what the Nazis did, they tried to justify the mass industrial slaughter of the whole by claiming to be attacked unprovoked by a subset of uprisers and making antisemetic justifications while crying about bankers. Gas and Cry is what the Nazis did. Main difference is that now flying demons vaporize children into a thin instead with 2000lb American bombs. Just as Nazis don't get to reductively define nazism (as simply the right to an Ubermensch Lebensraum) after 15 years of atrocities and 1 holocaust, zionists do not get to reductively define zionism (as simply the the right to a Jubermensch Lebensraum) [I'm impressed that you've reduced it even more as merely "the right for Jews to exist", nice try] after 76 years of atrocities and 1 holocaust. Both are defined by their victims! All these narrative traps do not work anymore. There is no justification for committing a holocaust. Not now. Not then. Not ever. No matter claims as to who controls what, no matter why rose up against whom, no matter whose religion says what. Truly embarrassing for humanity that that has to be said. And speaking of a ratio to 300:1, that is the death ratio that Israel has exacted upon the population of Gaza per Lancet. Surprisingly that ratio did not apply to the Germans, as per demonic Israeli calculator there are currently 1.8bn (300 * 6m) too many Germans alive today. Quite forgiving to the Germans for some reason (see: Otto Skorzeny).
- BurningFrog 2y ago> What has really changed that will make a difference in 2-3 years from now? The whole Iranian anti Israel coalition has been badly beaten! Hezbollah barely exists anymore. The Assad regime is toppled. Iran itself has learned that Israel can attack them at will. The Houthis are still active, but too far away to do real damage. Hamas itself still exists, but in a deeply degraded form. Their leaders are dead. Their armed forces have taken huge losses. Their amazing tunnel network is destroyed. Israel will never again be invaded by surprise. Hamas will probably start shooting rockets into Israel again, and kill the occasional civilian, but Israel is used to that and can deal with it.
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y agoNever again - I wouldn't hold my breath. Left alone, Gazans will dig new tunnels, and everything will repeat.
- BurningFrog 2y agoGazans will probably attack again, but Israel will not be caught by surprise for at least a generation.
- Levitz 2y agoIs there any way to bet against this rationale? As in, putting money on it? I can't do anything about the US having an obscenely distorted view of terrorism but it'd be nice if I could at least turn a profit off it.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- underdeserver 2y agoThe Houthis are armed with Iranian-made ballistic missiles, and do cause real damage. https://www.timesofisrael.com/lucky-there-were-no-children-school-near-tel-aviv-ravaged-by-houthi-missile-attack/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/lucky-there-were-no-children-s...
- robertoandred 2y agoI guess you didn’t notice when Hamas sowed a whole fresh generation of "I will sacrifice everything to wipe out Hamas" Israeli youth.
- ookdatnog 2y agoI don't think this is a symmetrical situation. Life in Israel is quite comfortable. Young people have hopes and dreams beyond sacrificing themselves in an eternal war. Palestinians in Gaza have an extremely bleak outlook on the future and effectively no hope that anything meaningful will change in their lifetime, and they feel collectively humiliated by decades of occupation. Sacrificing "everything" is a lot easier when everything looks a lot like nothing.
- robertoandred 2y agoDid you know that Gaza has shopping malls and waterfront resorts? Did you know that Israel had been opening up more and more jobs for Palestinians within Israel? Until they decided to throw all that progress away on October 7th.
- ookdatnog 2y agoProgress towards what, exactly? Their own state? Or full citizenship of Israel? Or can you think of another acceptable outcome?
- underdeserver 2y agoTheir own state. This is what people keep missing in discussions about this conflict: you don't get your own state by having the world, or Israel, or the US, or Iran "grant" it to you. You get your own state by building it - having functional institutions, developing an economy, reaching out to build peaceful international relations. Hamas chose to take all that steel and concrete, donated in the billions by the entire world, and build tunnels and rockets instead of universities and civilian infrastructure.
- bushbaba 2y agoAssad fell as a result of Israeli actions. Leadership of the entire axis of resistance is dead. Syria, Lebanon, and the West Bank learned what the price will be for “FAFO”. Gazan citizens have started to have a negative sentiment in Hamas, but do not express it given they and their families will be killed
- gunian 2y agonothing this is the life of pawns has been will continue to be until humans evolve which won't be until eons from now
- nthingtohide 2y agoThis Land Is Mine by Nina Paley. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tIdCsMufIY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tIdCsMufIY
- gunian 2y agoThis made me chuckle thank you :)
- bjourne 2y ago[flagged]
- grumple 2y ago~20k civilians dead in this war (started by the Palestinians, all civilians were collateral damage thanks to Palestinian militants using civilians as shields) vs 12 million killed in Nazi camps. Maybe you shouldn't diminish far greater horrors in order to attack Israel.
- cnlevy 2y agoHamas + PIJ had a fighting force of ~45 000 at the beginning of the war. They chose to fight it in a heavily urbanized area AMONG CIVILIANS. What human outcome would you expect out of the situation ?
- bjourne 2y agoEstimates of Hamas membership originating from Israeli state sources should be taken with a grain of salt. I expect the Israeli regime's blood thirst to be counter-balanced by the desire to free hostages, but apparently not. I don't think bombing hospitals and refugee camps serve any military purpose.
- Workaccount2 2y agoIn normal circumstances it doesn't. But Hamas had no shame using non-military sites as cover for military operations. Dead children is the fuel that powered Hamas's international support. And trust me, these guys just tell themselves those children will be blessed by Allah as martyrs, no biggie.
- sabarn01 2y agoThe problem is unsolvable. You have two sets of people with sets of claims on the same land. Both sides have an unshakable resolve that they are in the right and nothing is going to change that.
- bufferoverflow 2y agoA lot more Palestinians learned not to attack Israel though. If they try October 7 style attack again, Gaza will be wiped out.