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The kind of school you went to sounds very different from the grammar school that my working-class father went to in the 1960s and that helped him escape a life

The kind of school you went to sounds very different from the grammar school that my working-class father went to in the 1960s and that helped him escape a life of asbestos-breathing drudgery in moribund shipyards.

dijit 2y ago
For non-british readers; state-funded Grammar schools famously, were abolished. (I’m being downvoted, but this just objective fact, and something my grandfather brings up commonly). EDIT: according to a lot of HN comments; they still seem to exist but they aren't evenly distributed. There certainly were none in my city. Despite one being named a grammar school, it does not follow a grammar school curriculum: https://www.coventrypublicschools.org/schools/cgs https://www.coventrypublicschools.org/schools/cgs How messy.
- simonbarker87 2y ago
  No they weren’t. There are still many (163 according to a very quick google search) selective schools in the UK with entrance based on taking the 11+ exam. Edit to clarify they are state funded and not private.
  - dijit 2y ago
    This is just incorrect information. > By the end of the 1980s, all of the grammar schools in Wales and most of those in England had closed or converted to comprehensive schools. Selection also disappeared from state-funded schools in Scotland in the same period. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammar_school https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammar_school There are private schools that call themselves grammar schools (paid schools, not state funded) and some grammar schools still exist in Northern Ireland. But the system that defined what a grammar school is - has long since been abolished, and all free-access grammar schools were completely gone from my area before I was even born. —- EDIT: seems like the some state funded selective grammar schools exist but they are not exactly distributed evenly. So, I am wrong; and this situation is actually significantly more class-enforcing than it used to be. Amazing.
    - Nursie 2y ago
      I have a friend who teaches at a state funded grammar, and that wikipedia article includes a whole section on Current British grammar schools, which are selective and state funded o_O
    - gadders 2y ago
      They are mostly gone from the UK, but Kent has a fully functioning, state-funded grammar school system.
      - bagnus 2y ago
        As does Northern Ireland.
    - andmikey 2y ago
      Some counties in England still have state grammar schools and still follow the 11+ process. The 163 that the poster above you is referring to are state, selective, schools, rather than private grammar schools. There's a list linked in the Wikipedia page you linked: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grammar_schools_in_England https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grammar_schools_in_Eng...
    - gjhr 2y ago
      Key word being "most". I attended a state funded grammar school in the 2000s. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grammar_schools_in_England https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grammar_schools_in_Eng...
    - simonbarker87 2y ago
      My neighbours kid took the 11+ two years ago to go to a state funded selective school in Warwickshire. 4 of my friends went to a grammar school (slate funded) in the 2000s and that school still exists in the same form it did back then. Most grammar schools are gone but there are far from none.
    - robertlagrant 2y ago
      > all free-access grammar schools were completely gone from my area before I was even born. That's because you lived in an area that didn't have the 11+ exam. I did, and I went to a state-funded grammar school in the 1990s. It's still there, famously.
  - b800h 2y ago
    The vast bulk of councils in the UK abolished the 11+ system. It does still exist in some places. Unfortunately, the system was ditched by the Labour government of 1976. Our current Labour lot are trying to do the same thing to our private schooling system.
  - jvvw 2y ago
    Just to confuse things, some former grammar schools turned into private schools but kept 'grammar' in their name. But to confirm, there are still areas that have state grammar schools and have the 11 plus: Buckinghamshire, Essex and Kent spring to mind as the obvious ones in the South East.
    - MrJohz 2y ago
      Birmingham also had a grammar school system that is state funded, although most are supported by a charitable foundation as well. This all became more complex again with the introduction of academies (twice, with different goals and subtly different setups) and free schools (although are those really a thing any more?) and I'm sure New New Labour will at some point add another category if school in the interests of simplicity...
- _joel 2y ago
  There's one just down the road from me.
- NVHacker 2y ago
  One of the past Labour governments decided that there should be no new grammar schools created. So the existing ones continued to function but, as some closed down, their number diminished.
rgblambda 2y ago
There were problems with the grammar school system as well. They were created to provide a pathway to the middle class for bright children from working class families. But the entrance exam was heavily biased in favour of children from middle class backgrounds. Famously the first 11+ tests had questions like "Name the various types of servants in a household and what they do". In later years, getting out of school tuition was the main way to prep for the 11+, which put grammar schools financially out of reach for a lot of working class families. It had basically become a parallel state funded education system for the middle class.
- piokoch 2y ago
  "Name the various types of servants in a household and what they do" This is incredible...
- jvvw 2y ago
  My parents were both grammar school kids with working class parents, who didn't get any special prep for the 11+ beyond what their state primary school gave them. Both were the first people in their families to go to university and both managed to get into Oxford (where they met!). There was definitely a sweet point period when the system did what it intended in that sense, but there was obviously the drawback that if you ended up in the comprehensive system, you were stuck there and you had a situation where children got labelled at a young age. Obviously some areas still have grammar schools and the impression I get from people living in those areas is that to stand a fighting chance with the 11+, you need out of school tuition or for your parents to be educated enough and have time to tutor you yourself. House prices are also obviously high in grammar school areas too! I've seen recent 11+ papers and having bright children at state schools around that age who are at the top of their year academically, I think they would struggle with them without any preparation or tuition.
- physicsguy 2y ago
  > In later years, getting out of school tuition was the main way to prep for the 11+, which put grammar schools financially out of reach for a lot of working class families. It had basically become a parallel state funded education system for the middle class. But given most schools now in the country (given only a small subset still have grammar schools) are done by catchment area, much of this still exists in comprehensive education too. Now, if you're well off you just buy a house in the right area so your kids get in to the good school.

dijit 2y ago

For non-british readers; state-funded Grammar schools famously, were abolished. (I’m being downvoted, but this just objective fact, and something my grandfather brings up commonly). EDIT: according to a lot of HN comments; they still seem to exist but they aren't evenly distributed. There certainly were none in my city. Despite one being named a grammar school, it does not follow a grammar school curriculum: https://www.coventrypublicschools.org/schools/cgs https://www.coventrypublicschools.org/schools/cgs How messy.

simonbarker87 2y ago
No they weren’t. There are still many (163 according to a very quick google search) selective schools in the UK with entrance based on taking the 11+ exam. Edit to clarify they are state funded and not private.
- dijit 2y ago
  This is just incorrect information. > By the end of the 1980s, all of the grammar schools in Wales and most of those in England had closed or converted to comprehensive schools. Selection also disappeared from state-funded schools in Scotland in the same period. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammar_school https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammar_school There are private schools that call themselves grammar schools (paid schools, not state funded) and some grammar schools still exist in Northern Ireland. But the system that defined what a grammar school is - has long since been abolished, and all free-access grammar schools were completely gone from my area before I was even born. —- EDIT: seems like the some state funded selective grammar schools exist but they are not exactly distributed evenly. So, I am wrong; and this situation is actually significantly more class-enforcing than it used to be. Amazing.
  - Nursie 2y ago
    I have a friend who teaches at a state funded grammar, and that wikipedia article includes a whole section on Current British grammar schools, which are selective and state funded o_O
  - gadders 2y ago
    They are mostly gone from the UK, but Kent has a fully functioning, state-funded grammar school system.
    - bagnus 2y ago
      As does Northern Ireland.
  - andmikey 2y ago
    Some counties in England still have state grammar schools and still follow the 11+ process. The 163 that the poster above you is referring to are state, selective, schools, rather than private grammar schools. There's a list linked in the Wikipedia page you linked: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grammar_schools_in_England https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grammar_schools_in_Eng...
  - gjhr 2y ago
    Key word being "most". I attended a state funded grammar school in the 2000s. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grammar_schools_in_England https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grammar_schools_in_Eng...
  - simonbarker87 2y ago
    My neighbours kid took the 11+ two years ago to go to a state funded selective school in Warwickshire. 4 of my friends went to a grammar school (slate funded) in the 2000s and that school still exists in the same form it did back then. Most grammar schools are gone but there are far from none.
  - robertlagrant 2y ago
    > all free-access grammar schools were completely gone from my area before I was even born. That's because you lived in an area that didn't have the 11+ exam. I did, and I went to a state-funded grammar school in the 1990s. It's still there, famously.
- b800h 2y ago
  The vast bulk of councils in the UK abolished the 11+ system. It does still exist in some places. Unfortunately, the system was ditched by the Labour government of 1976. Our current Labour lot are trying to do the same thing to our private schooling system.
- jvvw 2y ago
  Just to confuse things, some former grammar schools turned into private schools but kept 'grammar' in their name. But to confirm, there are still areas that have state grammar schools and have the 11 plus: Buckinghamshire, Essex and Kent spring to mind as the obvious ones in the South East.
  - MrJohz 2y ago
    Birmingham also had a grammar school system that is state funded, although most are supported by a charitable foundation as well. This all became more complex again with the introduction of academies (twice, with different goals and subtly different setups) and free schools (although are those really a thing any more?) and I'm sure New New Labour will at some point add another category if school in the interests of simplicity...
_joel 2y ago
There's one just down the road from me.
NVHacker 2y ago
One of the past Labour governments decided that there should be no new grammar schools created. So the existing ones continued to function but, as some closed down, their number diminished.

rgblambda 2y ago

There were problems with the grammar school system as well. They were created to provide a pathway to the middle class for bright children from working class families. But the entrance exam was heavily biased in favour of children from middle class backgrounds. Famously the first 11+ tests had questions like "Name the various types of servants in a household and what they do". In later years, getting out of school tuition was the main way to prep for the 11+, which put grammar schools financially out of reach for a lot of working class families. It had basically become a parallel state funded education system for the middle class.

piokoch 2y ago
"Name the various types of servants in a household and what they do" This is incredible...
jvvw 2y ago
My parents were both grammar school kids with working class parents, who didn't get any special prep for the 11+ beyond what their state primary school gave them. Both were the first people in their families to go to university and both managed to get into Oxford (where they met!). There was definitely a sweet point period when the system did what it intended in that sense, but there was obviously the drawback that if you ended up in the comprehensive system, you were stuck there and you had a situation where children got labelled at a young age. Obviously some areas still have grammar schools and the impression I get from people living in those areas is that to stand a fighting chance with the 11+, you need out of school tuition or for your parents to be educated enough and have time to tutor you yourself. House prices are also obviously high in grammar school areas too! I've seen recent 11+ papers and having bright children at state schools around that age who are at the top of their year academically, I think they would struggle with them without any preparation or tuition.
physicsguy 2y ago
> In later years, getting out of school tuition was the main way to prep for the 11+, which put grammar schools financially out of reach for a lot of working class families. It had basically become a parallel state funded education system for the middle class. But given most schools now in the country (given only a small subset still have grammar schools) are done by catchment area, much of this still exists in comprehensive education too. Now, if you're well off you just buy a house in the right area so your kids get in to the good school.