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Because historically, owning a house has been very affordable and lumber is abundant because the landscape was not denuded for firewood over the course of mille

Because historically, owning a house has been very affordable and lumber is abundant because the landscape was not denuded for firewood over the course of millennia. Lumber is not timber. Lumber can be moved about by a single pair of hands and fastened with nails...American construction takes advantage of the industrial revolution and uses commodity nails. Worth noting that where Americans use concrete and brick, they also use steel reinforcing so that their buildings don't collapse brittle collapse from earthquakes and wind.

pfdietz 2y ago
Basically the entire eastern part of the US was denuded of trees, which have since grown back when uncompetitive farmland was abandoned. Lumber is cheap because there's lots of land where we now farm fast growing trees. Wood frame houses are cheap today because of the invention of the stamped metal framing connector, which has enabled large elements to be made off site in high volume. It's also why houses typically don't have attics anymore.
- edflsafoiewq 2y ago
  Can you elaborate on why no attics?
  - sceadu 2y ago
    the space is able to be opened up as part of the main living area https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oIeLGkSCMA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oIeLGkSCMA
  - sgtaylor5 2y ago
    The stamped metal framing connector facilitated the use of trusses, which means an open plan house (McMansion) of much larger footprint. Trusses mean no attic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oIeLGkSCMA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oIeLGkSCMA Ninja'ed
    - rascul 2y ago
      There's still an attic with many typical roof truss designs.
      - LastTrain 2y ago
        I think a lot of people in this thread are too young to understand what is meant by attic. Go upstairs in a house built in 1920, that’s an attic. A tiny cubby in a cavity left by engineered trusses is not. You’ll also notice the modern house, even a cheap one, is far better insulated.
        rascul 2y ago
        > A tiny cubby in a cavity left by engineered trusses is not. Yes, it is. It doesn't have to be usable to be an attic. It just needs to be a space between the ceiling and roof.
        LastTrain 2y ago
        Yes it fits the definition of the word, but not the context in which it was brought up here.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        rascul 2y ago
        I realize now perhaps they meant livable attic. That wasn't obvious to me. Crawling through non livable attics framed with trusses is part of my work sometimes.
        pfdietz 2y ago
        It is what I meant, but the confusion from the ambiguity is completely understandable.
    - deleted 2y ago
- marky1991 2y ago
  "It's also why houses typically don't have attics anymore." That's really strange to me, every house I've ever lived in (5 houses since 1991 , all in the southeast, all new construction) has had an attic and I can't even imagine what a house without an attic would look like. (I guess a flat roof, but only weird modern houses and apartments have flat roofs and there are not many modern houses)
  - foobarian 2y ago
    Additionally every single new construction I've seen in greater Boston metro area in the past 20 years has not brought in any pre-assembled elements from outside. Just piles of various sizes of lumber and assemble on-site. (Edit: to be clear this is for residential construction which tend to be small 1-2 story buildings.)
    - pfdietz 2y ago
      Here's an example of a Boston area builder doing just that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f4nqf_HgnY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f4nqf_HgnY
      - foobarian 2y ago
        Sure but I don't buy it's being done at scale. Even in that video they are mentioning an unusual design as a partial reason for the pre-fabbed elements.
  - wbshaw 2y ago
    Attics have been replaced by engineered trusses to hold up roofs. The trusses are made of.... wood. These trusses are also made offsite. This leaves very little room for usable attic space.
    - brudgers 2y ago
      When designed for minimal load on the bottom chord, plate connected wood trusses cost significantly less. Not just for materials, but less to install because they weigh less.
- cogogo 2y ago
  Watching a typical multi family house go up down the street in Boston and the wooden framing is definitely still all nailed together. This is very typical in the US Northeast. No need for connectors when you have nails and nail guns. Where I see elements made off site it’s typically manufactured joists which would be far more expensive as single pieces of wood.
  - bkjelden 2y ago
    I believe the post you're replying to is referring to roof trusses (and perhaps floor trusses) which are generally built off-site at a truss plant, but then attached onsite (usually with nails, but sometimes lag bolts or screws are needed).
  - rascul 2y ago
    It's not nails that make metal framing connectors not required, it's that modern platform framing doesn't typically need much of them due to design, except for trusses (mending plates) and rafters (metal ties). Nails are used to secure the framing but aren't generally used to provide a structural connection.
- twothamendment 2y ago
  "It's also why houses typically don't have attics anymore." As someone who framed houses as a job and designed and built three of my own I disagree with your take on attics. It is common for houses not to have an attic because builders must build cheap to compete. Attic space can be cheap square footage, but it has to be part of the plan from the beginning and is difficult to make it an option to pick. You can indeed have an attic with "attic trusses". They are still built out of dimensional lumber and stamped connectors - the bottom chord will be much larger. I've seen them span 36', not sure what the limit is. On one house, to do a partial attic was only $2000 extra for the trusses. Attics present other problems/expenses too, like additional stairs. (Many plans didn't have a place where extra stairs can be added as an option AND work with the truss layout. HVAC is another issue. You either end up with a second system for the attic or need to have space in the floor below to run ducts to the attic space. Again, most of your cookie cutter plans didn't leave a space for this. When walking my HVAC guy through my house to plan ducts he asked how much of this closet he could have for ducts. I told him "as much as you need to make it work correctly". From the look on his face you'd think he won the lottery. He replied "no one ever says that!". Attic spaces require different insulation techniques, they aren't difficult, but cookie cutters don't like different. I've used attic trusses on 2 of 3 houses. The one where I didn't was because stairs, HVAC and I didn't need more space (full extra height basement, daylight windows - that was enough).
- pfdietz 2y ago
  A relevant NY Times article. Mostly on factory built homes, but also has something on trusses for roofs. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/08/headway/how-an-american-dream-of-housing-became-a-reality-in-sweden.html?unlocked_article_code=1.qE4.4w_x.0kUHIeXybpY1&smid=url-share https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/08/headway/how-an-american-d... "What may ultimately force the adoption of industrialized housing in the United States is a skilled labor shortage. This has already affected one area of home-building: roof trusses, the structural timber frameworks that support a roof. Trusses require precisely cutting angles, a skill few workers possess, and so the structures are now mostly made in factories."

pfdietz 2y ago

Basically the entire eastern part of the US was denuded of trees, which have since grown back when uncompetitive farmland was abandoned. Lumber is cheap because there's lots of land where we now farm fast growing trees. Wood frame houses are cheap today because of the invention of the stamped metal framing connector, which has enabled large elements to be made off site in high volume. It's also why houses typically don't have attics anymore.

edflsafoiewq 2y ago
Can you elaborate on why no attics?
- sceadu 2y ago
  the space is able to be opened up as part of the main living area https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oIeLGkSCMA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oIeLGkSCMA
- sgtaylor5 2y ago
  The stamped metal framing connector facilitated the use of trusses, which means an open plan house (McMansion) of much larger footprint. Trusses mean no attic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oIeLGkSCMA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oIeLGkSCMA Ninja'ed
  - rascul 2y ago
    There's still an attic with many typical roof truss designs.
    - LastTrain 2y ago
      I think a lot of people in this thread are too young to understand what is meant by attic. Go upstairs in a house built in 1920, that’s an attic. A tiny cubby in a cavity left by engineered trusses is not. You’ll also notice the modern house, even a cheap one, is far better insulated.
      - rascul 2y ago
        > A tiny cubby in a cavity left by engineered trusses is not. Yes, it is. It doesn't have to be usable to be an attic. It just needs to be a space between the ceiling and roof.
        LastTrain 2y ago
        Yes it fits the definition of the word, but not the context in which it was brought up here.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        rascul 2y ago
        I realize now perhaps they meant livable attic. That wasn't obvious to me. Crawling through non livable attics framed with trusses is part of my work sometimes.
        pfdietz 2y ago
        It is what I meant, but the confusion from the ambiguity is completely understandable.
  - deleted 2y ago
marky1991 2y ago
"It's also why houses typically don't have attics anymore." That's really strange to me, every house I've ever lived in (5 houses since 1991 , all in the southeast, all new construction) has had an attic and I can't even imagine what a house without an attic would look like. (I guess a flat roof, but only weird modern houses and apartments have flat roofs and there are not many modern houses)
- foobarian 2y ago
  Additionally every single new construction I've seen in greater Boston metro area in the past 20 years has not brought in any pre-assembled elements from outside. Just piles of various sizes of lumber and assemble on-site. (Edit: to be clear this is for residential construction which tend to be small 1-2 story buildings.)
  - pfdietz 2y ago
    Here's an example of a Boston area builder doing just that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f4nqf_HgnY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f4nqf_HgnY
    - foobarian 2y ago
      Sure but I don't buy it's being done at scale. Even in that video they are mentioning an unusual design as a partial reason for the pre-fabbed elements.
- wbshaw 2y ago
  Attics have been replaced by engineered trusses to hold up roofs. The trusses are made of.... wood. These trusses are also made offsite. This leaves very little room for usable attic space.
  - brudgers 2y ago
    When designed for minimal load on the bottom chord, plate connected wood trusses cost significantly less. Not just for materials, but less to install because they weigh less.
cogogo 2y ago
Watching a typical multi family house go up down the street in Boston and the wooden framing is definitely still all nailed together. This is very typical in the US Northeast. No need for connectors when you have nails and nail guns. Where I see elements made off site it’s typically manufactured joists which would be far more expensive as single pieces of wood.
- bkjelden 2y ago
  I believe the post you're replying to is referring to roof trusses (and perhaps floor trusses) which are generally built off-site at a truss plant, but then attached onsite (usually with nails, but sometimes lag bolts or screws are needed).
- rascul 2y ago
  It's not nails that make metal framing connectors not required, it's that modern platform framing doesn't typically need much of them due to design, except for trusses (mending plates) and rafters (metal ties). Nails are used to secure the framing but aren't generally used to provide a structural connection.
twothamendment 2y ago
"It's also why houses typically don't have attics anymore." As someone who framed houses as a job and designed and built three of my own I disagree with your take on attics. It is common for houses not to have an attic because builders must build cheap to compete. Attic space can be cheap square footage, but it has to be part of the plan from the beginning and is difficult to make it an option to pick. You can indeed have an attic with "attic trusses". They are still built out of dimensional lumber and stamped connectors - the bottom chord will be much larger. I've seen them span 36', not sure what the limit is. On one house, to do a partial attic was only $2000 extra for the trusses. Attics present other problems/expenses too, like additional stairs. (Many plans didn't have a place where extra stairs can be added as an option AND work with the truss layout. HVAC is another issue. You either end up with a second system for the attic or need to have space in the floor below to run ducts to the attic space. Again, most of your cookie cutter plans didn't leave a space for this. When walking my HVAC guy through my house to plan ducts he asked how much of this closet he could have for ducts. I told him "as much as you need to make it work correctly". From the look on his face you'd think he won the lottery. He replied "no one ever says that!". Attic spaces require different insulation techniques, they aren't difficult, but cookie cutters don't like different. I've used attic trusses on 2 of 3 houses. The one where I didn't was because stairs, HVAC and I didn't need more space (full extra height basement, daylight windows - that was enough).
pfdietz 2y ago
A relevant NY Times article. Mostly on factory built homes, but also has something on trusses for roofs. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/08/headway/how-an-american-dream-of-housing-became-a-reality-in-sweden.html?unlocked_article_code=1.qE4.4w_x.0kUHIeXybpY1&smid=url-share https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/08/headway/how-an-american-d... "What may ultimately force the adoption of industrialized housing in the United States is a skilled labor shortage. This has already affected one area of home-building: roof trusses, the structural timber frameworks that support a roof. Trusses require precisely cutting angles, a skill few workers possess, and so the structures are now mostly made in factories."