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It's the closest we have to a browser not controlled by the corporate giants. Sometimes Mozilla makes unpopular choices and people raise a stink about it, but w

It's the closest we have to a browser not controlled by the corporate giants. Sometimes Mozilla makes unpopular choices and people raise a stink about it, but we do that because we hold them to a higher standard. With Microsoft and Google, we just expect them to Do More Evil, with Mozilla we expect Good and will complain loudly when they fail to uphold our principles, and we recommend Firefox because we feel like it is possible to expect Good from them.

kokada 2y ago
Yes, pretty much. While I don't concur with Mozilla 100% of the time, it is still the only major browser that I can have control (e.g.: by still having Manifest V2 extensions available). Also most of controversial choices in Firefox can be disabled or changed in `about:config`.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  What about the choice not to optimize for battery efficiency on my Mac?
  - julienwaj 2y ago
    Can you please elaborate on that?
    - Klonoar 2y ago
      They may be referring to the fact that Firefox is probably the worst on battery of the 3 main browsers when used on macOS. Safari does admittedly set a very high bar though, and only cares about 1-2 platforms at most.
    - scarface_74 2y ago
      Neither Firefox nor Chrome optimize for battery efficiency like Safari does on Macs or Edge does for Windows. I’m not trying to be the “just Google it” guy without citations. But I couldn’t find a definitive citation - just general discussions and some YouTube videos including earlier discussions on HN. I searched for “firefox vs safari battery mac” and the same for Edge on Windows.
      - lern_too_spel 2y ago
        Chrome doesn't optimize for battery efficiency like Safari on Macs. It optimizes better than Safari. https://birchtree.me/blog/everyone-says-chrome-devastates-mac-battery-life-but-does-it-i-tested-for-36-hours-to-find-out/ https://birchtree.me/blog/everyone-says-chrome-devastates-ma...
  - kokada 2y ago
    Safari have only 2 platforms (actually one since they share pretty much the same kernel and much of the user space code) to support vs Firefox needs to support 4 (macOS, Android, Linux and Windows). I would be surprised if Firefox was the most battery efficient browser on macOS.
  - asadotzler 2y ago
    You didn't say "like Safari does" and instead made the bullshit and unsupported claim that they chose not to optimize. That's some uninformed garbage if I've ever seen it.
pveierland 2y ago
Mozilla does plenty of really useful things! Super happy with Firefox as my primary browser. Shout-out to MDN as well for being an excellent reference on all things web: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/ https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/
baxtr 2y ago
I actually really like Safari… sometimes tabs sync across devices is buggy, reloads a lot. But other than that I’m quite content.
- jampekka 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - baxtr 2y ago
    That I do in Chrome I admit :) but for my personal browsing I use safari
  - redman25 2y ago
    I do web dev and prefer safari. It’s less power hungry on a laptop. If you develop for the lowest common denominator, every other browser just works. There’s something to be said for adding _less_ features to web browsers. A simple web is a web where open source solutions can compete with chrome. It helps avoid a browser monoculture.
    - dartos 2y ago
      Yeah but we’re not in a simple web. Safari isn’t trying to make it simple for you, they just use it to keep you in their walled garden. PWAs are a great example of this. The general idea was even a product of the Jobs era of Apple, before the App Store. Safari and iOS’s poor support of PWAs is exactly a result of Apple wanting to prevent app distribution channels other than their App Store. Choosing safari is choosing a more closed web, where missing standards means that you, as a safari user, are unable to access certain features or apps that Apple doesn’t want you to access.
      - jamespo 2y ago
        Missing standards like Manifest V3 that everyone was crying out for?
      - mrweasel 2y ago
input_sh 2y ago
More like "we'll complain all the time regardless of what they do by repeating the same talking points over and over again". > How much do they pay the CEO? Why aren't they exploring other funding options? At the same time, why are they "wasting resoures" working on other things!? They should exclusively work on Firefox! > ...and that's why I stick to this Chromium fork with its own digital advertising service and its own cryptocurrency, but you can easily switch it off!
- diggan 2y ago
  You know parent made a good point when comments come in attacking points parent didn't even mention or brought up.
- mossTechnician 2y ago
  Of all the ways to critique Brave, consider Mozilla's exploration of "other funding options" has recently been digital advertising. They purchased two advertising companies - Anonym[0] and FakeSpot - and have integrated FakeSpot directly into Firefox. Mozilla has an ad sales division [1]. Mozilla even added extra telemetry just for advertisers[2]. [0] https://www.theregister.com/2024/06/18/mozilla_buys_anonym_betting_privacy/ https://www.theregister.com/2024/06/18/mozilla_buys_anonym_b... [1] https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/advertising/formats/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/advertising/formats/ [2] https://www.privacyguides.org/articles/2024/07/14/mozilla-disappoints-us-yet-again-2/ https://www.privacyguides.org/articles/2024/07/14/mozilla-di...
- woolion 2y ago
  I almost never use Chrome-based browsers, but recently was forced because debug points were simply not working on Firefox. You can strawman all you want, there are unfortunately technical points where Google is abusing its position to force its standards, but the primary architects of Firefox downfall is Mozilla. For the record, I used a Firefox phone for many years (and yes it did cause me a lot of problems), and remember vividly when they announced a luxury Firefox phone about one week before killing the project.
- pessimizer 2y ago
  So weird to paint consistency as a vice. "Talking points" is from the same land as "gotcha questions." "Talking points" are the points that people are talking about that you'd prefer not to talk about because you don't have good answers for. So you pretend like repeating an unanswered question is an dirty underhanded plot. > How much do they pay the CEO? Why aren't they exploring other funding options? At the same time, why are they "wasting resoures" working on other things!? They should exclusively work on Firefox! This isn't a quote. Don't make up quotes. This is you putting words in people's mouths, and choosing the ones that allow you to reply with something about Brave. At the same time, you're excusing Firefox for doing things because Brave does similar things. The people switching to for-profit Brave from Firefox would have prefer a non-profit, user-focused Firefox, but have been pushed to the point where they don't see any moral difference between the two, so they might as well experiment. When Firefox was innovating, it was the founder of Brave that was running it. Most Firefox haters use Firefox. They just wish that it wasn't so bad, that it wasn't so much torture to put it into a usable state, and that the developers weren't actively fighting the users to keep them from putting it in that state, rather than centering on the users. They largely blame this on the company, Google, who subsidizes Firefox while competing with it. And on the company, Mozilla, that sucks all of that subsidy up in salaries, while seemingly neglecting the browser.
scarface_74 2y ago
Most of Firefox’s revenue comes from Google….
anthk 2y ago
Icecat it's far more free than Firefox.
- Idesmi 2y ago
  Icecat is Firefox.
ekianjo 2y ago
> Sometimes Mozilla makes unpopular choices Sometimes? They tend to hit the mark of bad decisions more often than not
- ziddoap 2y ago
  People just remember the shitty decisions more vividly and for longer than people remember the dozens of good decisions made in between. Most good decisions don't get a full press cycle (because they are boring).
  - mossTechnician 2y ago
    Mozilla's brand identity is tethered to specific moral prescriptions[0] that their products are supposed to abide by. People sold on that identity are bound to care. [0] https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/manifesto/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/manifesto/
    - ziddoap 2y ago
      This seems unrelated to whether or not Mozilla makes bad decisions more often than not. I'm talking about frequency, you're talking about severity. People don't remember the 1000 times you did something correctly.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
asadotzler 2y ago
Most of HN: We hold Mozilla to a higher standard so we've abandon them for the corporations we don't have any expectations from. Good job. Smart tactics.

kokada 2y ago

Yes, pretty much. While I don't concur with Mozilla 100% of the time, it is still the only major browser that I can have control (e.g.: by still having Manifest V2 extensions available). Also most of controversial choices in Firefox can be disabled or changed in `about:config`.

scarface_74 2y ago
What about the choice not to optimize for battery efficiency on my Mac?
- julienwaj 2y ago
  Can you please elaborate on that?
  - Klonoar 2y ago
    They may be referring to the fact that Firefox is probably the worst on battery of the 3 main browsers when used on macOS. Safari does admittedly set a very high bar though, and only cares about 1-2 platforms at most.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    Neither Firefox nor Chrome optimize for battery efficiency like Safari does on Macs or Edge does for Windows. I’m not trying to be the “just Google it” guy without citations. But I couldn’t find a definitive citation - just general discussions and some YouTube videos including earlier discussions on HN. I searched for “firefox vs safari battery mac” and the same for Edge on Windows.
    - lern_too_spel 2y ago
      Chrome doesn't optimize for battery efficiency like Safari on Macs. It optimizes better than Safari. https://birchtree.me/blog/everyone-says-chrome-devastates-mac-battery-life-but-does-it-i-tested-for-36-hours-to-find-out/ https://birchtree.me/blog/everyone-says-chrome-devastates-ma...
- kokada 2y ago
  Safari have only 2 platforms (actually one since they share pretty much the same kernel and much of the user space code) to support vs Firefox needs to support 4 (macOS, Android, Linux and Windows). I would be surprised if Firefox was the most battery efficient browser on macOS.
- asadotzler 2y ago
  You didn't say "like Safari does" and instead made the bullshit and unsupported claim that they chose not to optimize. That's some uninformed garbage if I've ever seen it.

pveierland 2y ago

Mozilla does plenty of really useful things! Super happy with Firefox as my primary browser. Shout-out to MDN as well for being an excellent reference on all things web: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/ https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/

baxtr 2y ago

I actually really like Safari… sometimes tabs sync across devices is buggy, reloads a lot. But other than that I’m quite content.

jampekka 2y ago
[flagged]
- baxtr 2y ago
  That I do in Chrome I admit :) but for my personal browsing I use safari
- redman25 2y ago
  I do web dev and prefer safari. It’s less power hungry on a laptop. If you develop for the lowest common denominator, every other browser just works. There’s something to be said for adding _less_ features to web browsers. A simple web is a web where open source solutions can compete with chrome. It helps avoid a browser monoculture.
  - dartos 2y ago
    Yeah but we’re not in a simple web. Safari isn’t trying to make it simple for you, they just use it to keep you in their walled garden. PWAs are a great example of this. The general idea was even a product of the Jobs era of Apple, before the App Store. Safari and iOS’s poor support of PWAs is exactly a result of Apple wanting to prevent app distribution channels other than their App Store. Choosing safari is choosing a more closed web, where missing standards means that you, as a safari user, are unable to access certain features or apps that Apple doesn’t want you to access.
    - jamespo 2y ago
      Missing standards like Manifest V3 that everyone was crying out for?
    - mrweasel 2y ago

input_sh 2y ago

More like "we'll complain all the time regardless of what they do by repeating the same talking points over and over again". > How much do they pay the CEO? Why aren't they exploring other funding options? At the same time, why are they "wasting resoures" working on other things!? They should exclusively work on Firefox! > ...and that's why I stick to this Chromium fork with its own digital advertising service and its own cryptocurrency, but you can easily switch it off!

diggan 2y ago
You know parent made a good point when comments come in attacking points parent didn't even mention or brought up.
mossTechnician 2y ago
Of all the ways to critique Brave, consider Mozilla's exploration of "other funding options" has recently been digital advertising. They purchased two advertising companies - Anonym[0] and FakeSpot - and have integrated FakeSpot directly into Firefox. Mozilla has an ad sales division [1]. Mozilla even added extra telemetry just for advertisers[2]. [0] https://www.theregister.com/2024/06/18/mozilla_buys_anonym_betting_privacy/ https://www.theregister.com/2024/06/18/mozilla_buys_anonym_b... [1] https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/advertising/formats/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/advertising/formats/ [2] https://www.privacyguides.org/articles/2024/07/14/mozilla-disappoints-us-yet-again-2/ https://www.privacyguides.org/articles/2024/07/14/mozilla-di...
woolion 2y ago
I almost never use Chrome-based browsers, but recently was forced because debug points were simply not working on Firefox. You can strawman all you want, there are unfortunately technical points where Google is abusing its position to force its standards, but the primary architects of Firefox downfall is Mozilla. For the record, I used a Firefox phone for many years (and yes it did cause me a lot of problems), and remember vividly when they announced a luxury Firefox phone about one week before killing the project.
pessimizer 2y ago
So weird to paint consistency as a vice. "Talking points" is from the same land as "gotcha questions." "Talking points" are the points that people are talking about that you'd prefer not to talk about because you don't have good answers for. So you pretend like repeating an unanswered question is an dirty underhanded plot. > How much do they pay the CEO? Why aren't they exploring other funding options? At the same time, why are they "wasting resoures" working on other things!? They should exclusively work on Firefox! This isn't a quote. Don't make up quotes. This is you putting words in people's mouths, and choosing the ones that allow you to reply with something about Brave. At the same time, you're excusing Firefox for doing things because Brave does similar things. The people switching to for-profit Brave from Firefox would have prefer a non-profit, user-focused Firefox, but have been pushed to the point where they don't see any moral difference between the two, so they might as well experiment. When Firefox was innovating, it was the founder of Brave that was running it. Most Firefox haters use Firefox. They just wish that it wasn't so bad, that it wasn't so much torture to put it into a usable state, and that the developers weren't actively fighting the users to keep them from putting it in that state, rather than centering on the users. They largely blame this on the company, Google, who subsidizes Firefox while competing with it. And on the company, Mozilla, that sucks all of that subsidy up in salaries, while seemingly neglecting the browser.

scarface_74 2y ago

Most of Firefox’s revenue comes from Google….

anthk 2y ago

Icecat it's far more free than Firefox.

Idesmi 2y ago
Icecat is Firefox.

ekianjo 2y ago

> Sometimes Mozilla makes unpopular choices Sometimes? They tend to hit the mark of bad decisions more often than not

ziddoap 2y ago
People just remember the shitty decisions more vividly and for longer than people remember the dozens of good decisions made in between. Most good decisions don't get a full press cycle (because they are boring).
- mossTechnician 2y ago
  Mozilla's brand identity is tethered to specific moral prescriptions[0] that their products are supposed to abide by. People sold on that identity are bound to care. [0] https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/manifesto/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/manifesto/
  - ziddoap 2y ago
    This seems unrelated to whether or not Mozilla makes bad decisions more often than not. I'm talking about frequency, you're talking about severity. People don't remember the 1000 times you did something correctly.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]

asadotzler 2y ago

Most of HN: We hold Mozilla to a higher standard so we've abandon them for the corporations we don't have any expectations from. Good job. Smart tactics.