4 ms·

My media literacy is not strong enough to understand if all the positive content about Sikh is "organic" or a very successful campaign by them to increase their

My media literacy is not strong enough to understand if all the positive content about Sikh is "organic" or a very successful campaign by them to increase their reputation. On reddit I keep reading about them doing great things, volunteering, silently providing what is needed to people in emergencies, for example the current wildfires in the US. (e.g. https://www.reddit.com/r/nextfuckinglevel/comments/1i0kavt https://www.reddit.com/r/nextfuckinglevel/comments/1i0kavt - currently prominently featured on the front page) And now there is even some on Hacker News. I am not disparaging anyone here, I am honestly curious about this pattern I have recognised.

checker659 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langar_(Sikhism) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langar_(Sikhism)
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
Between the assassination in Canada [1] and attempted assassination on U.S. soil [2], there is international curiosity about (and default sympathy for) a group most previously didn’t know existed. (There may have also been awareness in the American and Canadian Sikh communities that they need to educate their fellow countrymen about who they are and why they’re the subject of what looks like a new form of state-sponsored terrorism.) [1] https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/what-is-known-about-murder-sikh-separatist-leader-canada-2023-09-19/ https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/what-is-known-about-m... [2] https://www.npr.org/2023/12/01/1216647148/after-foiled-assassination-attempt-theres-fear-amid-american-sikhs https://www.npr.org/2023/12/01/1216647148/after-foiled-assas...
- jgrahamc 2y ago
  there is international curiosity about (and default sympathy for) a group most previously didn’t know existed You didn't grow up in the UK then. Made me laugh to think of not knowing Sikhs exist.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > You didn't grow up in the UK then I didn’t, but I do have Indian heritage. I knew Sikhs existed and the basics of their customs, but I was unaware of e.g. Operation Blue Star [1] or the Khalistan independence/separatist movement [2]. Plenty of Americans and Canadians (and, I’d posit, Brits) meanwhile could probably recognise the headdress and little more. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Blue_Star https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Blue_Star [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalistan_movement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalistan_movement
    - OJFord 2y ago
      Do schools not teach about religion there? Sure not Khalistan (maybe in Geography or History it could be relevant), but about customs & beliefs beyond (or reason for) turbans, and certainly existence?
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > Do schools not teach about religion there? Can’t speak for Canada. But my American curriculum didn’t cover the Sikhs. The exposure came from family and at community cultural festivals—it was superficial. Most Americans wouldn’t have even that.
        saagarjha 2y ago
        I think the general issue is that while there is a focus on "ancient civilizations" (which, of course, covers India) Sikhism is too new to be covered in that. By the time the Middle Ages end and Enlightenment picks up almost all curricula swing back to Europe. I actually learned very little of what happened from 1500-1800ish around the world, besides how they related to the affairs of what was now some colony of a European country.
        zelos 2y ago
        In the UK state education system it would be covered in Religious Education lessons, around ages 11-13. They cover most of the world's major religions. As a completely non-religious person I try to keep myself from telling my concientious son not to worry too much about his RE homework
- mschuster91 2y ago
  > a new form of state-sponsored terrorism Government assassinations of exilants... that's sadly not new at all. Back when Yugoslavia was governed by Tito, the regime sent out killer squads across the world for about half a century [1] - mostly Germany was targeted (because most Yugoslavs ended up there as Germany was rich and happily accepted emigrants fron Yugoslavia), but Croats got also targetted in places as far away as Canada, South Africa, Argentinia or Australia. It's a dark part of history many people to this day aren't aware of, it only made the news again for a short time after the attacks on Litvinenko, Skripal and Khangoshvili respectively. [1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_von_Attentaten_auf_Exilkroaten_(1945%E2%80%931992) https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_von_Attentaten_auf_Exilk...
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    You're correct. But it's not frequent on the American homeland.
- obvious78 2y ago
  [dead]
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
b800h 2y ago
I get the impression that there's some sort of controversy that brewed over in the US / Canada recently. I'm based in the UK and my opinion of Sikhs has always been positive, as a general group.
- navane 2y ago
  Yeah afaik they don't need to raise any reputation.
- scheme271 2y ago
  The Indian government got caught trying to assassinate some Sikh activists that have previously called for an independent Sikh state. The Indian government considered them terrorists and the US/Canadian governments didn't.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > Indian government got caught trying to assassinate some Sikh activists "A former Indian intelligence officer" [1] is charged with directing the attempted killing of "a dual citizen of the United States and Canada" [2] on American soil. (They succeeded in Canada [3].) It was an incredibly provocative and stupid move, on par with MBS's Khasshogi assasination, but if Riyadh had taken its bone saws to Pennsylvania. (A fair comparison would be America conducting a Bin Laden raid on an Indian national in India.) [1] https://www.reuters.com/legal/us-charges-ex-indian-intelligence-official-foiled-sikh-murder-plot-washington-2024-10-17/ https://www.reuters.com/legal/us-charges-ex-indian-intellige... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurpatwant_Singh_Pannun#cite_note-reuters_thwarted_2023-2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurpatwant_Singh_Pannun#cite_n... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardeep_Singh_Nijjar#Death,_subsequent_diplomatic_dispute_and_criminal_investigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardeep_Singh_Nijjar#Death,_su...
constantcrying 2y ago
Social media puts us all into an alternate reality. The video on Reddit is on some level a good example, as the title directly contradicts it's content. In the video you see precisely one person identifiable as a Sikh and many other people, who are clearly not Sikh, performing the same task. Most definitely it isn't "the Sikh community" doing anything. It isn't even clear who provided the resources here. Reddit especially is full of things like that, small snippets of an event presented as if it were the whole story. It is a very effective propaganda tactic and groups obviously benefit from portraying themselves a certain way and using these tactics to frame an issue a certain way.
- 2Gkashmiri 2y ago
  not all sikhs wear a turban....... just so you know
  - constantcrying 2y ago
    What a novel revelation. Tell me then, what percentage of the Sikh population are white women? 40%?
    - sirtaj 2y ago
      Not sure, but 100% of the white women in my house are married to one.
      - constantcrying 2y ago
        Who cares? Why are you responding with irrelevant trivia about yourself? I am sure you absolutely know that not 40% of your community is made up of white women and that obviously is the people unloading aren't all Sikhs. By the way, these responses are exactly what OP was talking about.
        sirtaj 2y ago
        Because you are making veiled assertions about a community cynically making charity about themselves, based on your quick visual analysis of a short reddit video. You're doing exactly what you're accusing everyone else of doing, with an added dose of poor faith.
Brian_K_White 2y ago
Sikhs are literally the nicest. Just read anything about them from any source. Best if you can find someone how has ever met any. I've known some but you don't know me so it doesn't count for much. They are the real deal.
- amriksohata 2y ago
  We shouldnt make general assumptions about any community as a positive on one minority can disparage another community, we are all human, come to see Sikh politics in Punjab and you can make your own judegments.
  - gjvc 2y ago
    "a positive on one minority can disparage another community" horseshit
  - Brian_K_White 2y ago
    Are you Sikh yourself? Because in my experience so far, one would never say a thing like this. While you did. That is an example of the difference in integrity between them and most anyone else. You would say "They're no so perfect", and maybe they aren't, but they would never say the same thing about you, regardless how true.
    - moomoo11 2y ago
      Tribalism around made up fantasies is one of the worst attributes of the human. All humans suffer from it.
      - Brian_K_White 2y ago
        As an atheist myself, in full agreement on all the harms that descend from validating magical thinking. But so what? That's an observation of no relevance. That particular "tribe", fantasy and all, still put me to shame for being good people. Including specifically in the more intellecual impersonal justice/fairness ways that I generally like to think I have down. The observation about the harms of religion, in this case without an actual example of how it applies in this case, ends up only looking defensive. What are you threatened by that you feel the need to try to attack the simple assertion that some people are nice?
prawn 2y ago
I'd guess that it just came about after the wildfire story, and a few curious people looking further into it. From my one experience at a Langar event, it really was as advertised - very welcoming, zero pitch or expectation and quite refreshing.
nkoren 2y ago
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it were organic, spurred on to some extent by recent news in Canada. Many years ago I worked on a project in Amritsar, which had me regularly engaged with the Golden Temple (the most sacred place in the Sikh religion) authorities. I have to say that all the Sikhs I interacted with were fantastic: honest, generous, hard-working, fun-loving, good-hearted people. I do think a lot of this was grounded in Sikh religious principles, which promote a kind of radical moderation that's actually pretty unique among religions. (the story goes that the founding guru of the Sikhs had two sons, one of whom destroyed his life with gambling and alcohol, and the other of whom destroyed his life with asceticism and abstinence. The guru repudiated both of them, saying that the latter was as much of a vice as the former. Instead, he preached that the point of life was to be happy, and to make other people happy: have a family and take good care of it, take care of other people, don't be an asshole, and have a good time. Balance these imperatives well, and you're doing God's work. As far as organised religions go, it's really pretty great. And langar at the Golden Temple is a truly amazing experience. Men and women from every strata of society, from every religion, sitting down together to eat good food in silence. No preaching or any other bullshit -- the shared togetherness and humanity is enough. Honestly, it's profound. One of my dreams for later in life, when I have the time, is to go back there for a few weeks and volunteer to cook in their kitchen. That said: Sikhs aren't all cuddles and sunshine. Early in their history they were strictly pacifistic, and also heavily persecuted. After a while, one of the head Gurus decided that if the way to do God's work was to live a good life, and there were oppressors who were committed to preventing you from doing so, then a necessary part of God's work would require, er, helping those oppressors to reincarnate as quickly as possible. Ever since then, they haven't been keen on turning the other cheek, and have had a very strong martial/military culture. There's still a very strong ethic that you shouldn't use violence unless there's absolutely no alternative -- but if you do have to use violence, then you might as well be bloody good at it. But of course the more that one participates in violence, the greyer the morality becomes. So I wouldn't dare wade into the India vs. Khalistan conflict: I'm sure that many of the beefs on both sides are well-founded at this point. But if you can separate the culture and the religion from the politics -- then yeah, it's a really great thing they've got going on there, and I think it's great for the world to have more exposure to it.
- 2y ago
copx 2y ago
I think it's the same phenomenon as with the Kurds. Both groups need the West because they are existentially threatened in their native region and have no other allies. The Kurds are surrounded / occupied by Turks, Arabs, and Iranians - all who have a long history of trying to exterminate the Kurdish people / culture. Sikhs aren't any better off with their native lands being ruled by either Hindus or Muslims, two groups who have a long history of trying to exterminate the Sikhs. That's why both groups - quite frankly - suck up to the West so hard and are often picture perfect immigrants because they really don't want to be sent back. Because whatever "racism" you might think exists in the West, it is nothing compared to the religious hatred coming from Muslims and (to a lesser extend) Hindus.
- rldjbpin 2y ago
  Interesting parallels, but some important distinctions needed: - Kurds have at least a millennium-old history [1], while Sikhism is much more recent in comparison. The latter do not share the same level of regional complexities as besides the diaspora migrating in the past century, their presence is shared between two countries split up during their independence. - In recent history we have seen armed conflicts with Kurd factions, especially in Syria, but this has not been the case for the past decades for the latter. The insurgent movements [2] for the latter were much like the IRA movement, in the past but not forgotten for some. From my eyes, it seems that a vocal small section of the expat population wants to promote the separatist ideals, for the land they have long left not out of fear of prosecution solely for their identity. The original article is a reflection of the act of servitude to others, but it is must be viewed separately from the conflicts a part of the group following the faith might have elsewhere. [1] http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/kurdish-language-i http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/kurdish-language-i [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalistan_movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalistan_movement

checker659 2y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langar_(Sikhism) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langar_(Sikhism)

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

Between the assassination in Canada [1] and attempted assassination on U.S. soil [2], there is international curiosity about (and default sympathy for) a group most previously didn’t know existed. (There may have also been awareness in the American and Canadian Sikh communities that they need to educate their fellow countrymen about who they are and why they’re the subject of what looks like a new form of state-sponsored terrorism.) [1] https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/what-is-known-about-murder-sikh-separatist-leader-canada-2023-09-19/ https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/what-is-known-about-m... [2] https://www.npr.org/2023/12/01/1216647148/after-foiled-assassination-attempt-theres-fear-amid-american-sikhs https://www.npr.org/2023/12/01/1216647148/after-foiled-assas...

jgrahamc 2y ago
there is international curiosity about (and default sympathy for) a group most previously didn’t know existed You didn't grow up in the UK then. Made me laugh to think of not knowing Sikhs exist.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > You didn't grow up in the UK then I didn’t, but I do have Indian heritage. I knew Sikhs existed and the basics of their customs, but I was unaware of e.g. Operation Blue Star [1] or the Khalistan independence/separatist movement [2]. Plenty of Americans and Canadians (and, I’d posit, Brits) meanwhile could probably recognise the headdress and little more. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Blue_Star https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Blue_Star [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalistan_movement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalistan_movement
  - OJFord 2y ago
    Do schools not teach about religion there? Sure not Khalistan (maybe in Geography or History it could be relevant), but about customs & beliefs beyond (or reason for) turbans, and certainly existence?
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > Do schools not teach about religion there? Can’t speak for Canada. But my American curriculum didn’t cover the Sikhs. The exposure came from family and at community cultural festivals—it was superficial. Most Americans wouldn’t have even that.
      - saagarjha 2y ago
        I think the general issue is that while there is a focus on "ancient civilizations" (which, of course, covers India) Sikhism is too new to be covered in that. By the time the Middle Ages end and Enlightenment picks up almost all curricula swing back to Europe. I actually learned very little of what happened from 1500-1800ish around the world, besides how they related to the affairs of what was now some colony of a European country.
        zelos 2y ago
        In the UK state education system it would be covered in Religious Education lessons, around ages 11-13. They cover most of the world's major religions. As a completely non-religious person I try to keep myself from telling my concientious son not to worry too much about his RE homework
mschuster91 2y ago
> a new form of state-sponsored terrorism Government assassinations of exilants... that's sadly not new at all. Back when Yugoslavia was governed by Tito, the regime sent out killer squads across the world for about half a century [1] - mostly Germany was targeted (because most Yugoslavs ended up there as Germany was rich and happily accepted emigrants fron Yugoslavia), but Croats got also targetted in places as far away as Canada, South Africa, Argentinia or Australia. It's a dark part of history many people to this day aren't aware of, it only made the news again for a short time after the attacks on Litvinenko, Skripal and Khangoshvili respectively. [1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_von_Attentaten_auf_Exilkroaten_(1945%E2%80%931992) https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_von_Attentaten_auf_Exilk...
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  You're correct. But it's not frequent on the American homeland.
obvious78 2y ago
[dead]

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

b800h 2y ago

I get the impression that there's some sort of controversy that brewed over in the US / Canada recently. I'm based in the UK and my opinion of Sikhs has always been positive, as a general group.

navane 2y ago
Yeah afaik they don't need to raise any reputation.
scheme271 2y ago
The Indian government got caught trying to assassinate some Sikh activists that have previously called for an independent Sikh state. The Indian government considered them terrorists and the US/Canadian governments didn't.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > Indian government got caught trying to assassinate some Sikh activists "A former Indian intelligence officer" [1] is charged with directing the attempted killing of "a dual citizen of the United States and Canada" [2] on American soil. (They succeeded in Canada [3].) It was an incredibly provocative and stupid move, on par with MBS's Khasshogi assasination, but if Riyadh had taken its bone saws to Pennsylvania. (A fair comparison would be America conducting a Bin Laden raid on an Indian national in India.) [1] https://www.reuters.com/legal/us-charges-ex-indian-intelligence-official-foiled-sikh-murder-plot-washington-2024-10-17/ https://www.reuters.com/legal/us-charges-ex-indian-intellige... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurpatwant_Singh_Pannun#cite_note-reuters_thwarted_2023-2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurpatwant_Singh_Pannun#cite_n... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardeep_Singh_Nijjar#Death,_subsequent_diplomatic_dispute_and_criminal_investigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardeep_Singh_Nijjar#Death,_su...

constantcrying 2y ago

Social media puts us all into an alternate reality. The video on Reddit is on some level a good example, as the title directly contradicts it's content. In the video you see precisely one person identifiable as a Sikh and many other people, who are clearly not Sikh, performing the same task. Most definitely it isn't "the Sikh community" doing anything. It isn't even clear who provided the resources here. Reddit especially is full of things like that, small snippets of an event presented as if it were the whole story. It is a very effective propaganda tactic and groups obviously benefit from portraying themselves a certain way and using these tactics to frame an issue a certain way.

2Gkashmiri 2y ago
not all sikhs wear a turban....... just so you know
- constantcrying 2y ago
  What a novel revelation. Tell me then, what percentage of the Sikh population are white women? 40%?
  - sirtaj 2y ago
    Not sure, but 100% of the white women in my house are married to one.
    - constantcrying 2y ago
      Who cares? Why are you responding with irrelevant trivia about yourself? I am sure you absolutely know that not 40% of your community is made up of white women and that obviously is the people unloading aren't all Sikhs. By the way, these responses are exactly what OP was talking about.
      - sirtaj 2y ago
        Because you are making veiled assertions about a community cynically making charity about themselves, based on your quick visual analysis of a short reddit video. You're doing exactly what you're accusing everyone else of doing, with an added dose of poor faith.

Brian_K_White 2y ago

Sikhs are literally the nicest. Just read anything about them from any source. Best if you can find someone how has ever met any. I've known some but you don't know me so it doesn't count for much. They are the real deal.

amriksohata 2y ago
We shouldnt make general assumptions about any community as a positive on one minority can disparage another community, we are all human, come to see Sikh politics in Punjab and you can make your own judegments.
- gjvc 2y ago
  "a positive on one minority can disparage another community" horseshit
- Brian_K_White 2y ago
  Are you Sikh yourself? Because in my experience so far, one would never say a thing like this. While you did. That is an example of the difference in integrity between them and most anyone else. You would say "They're no so perfect", and maybe they aren't, but they would never say the same thing about you, regardless how true.
  - moomoo11 2y ago
    Tribalism around made up fantasies is one of the worst attributes of the human. All humans suffer from it.
    - Brian_K_White 2y ago
      As an atheist myself, in full agreement on all the harms that descend from validating magical thinking. But so what? That's an observation of no relevance. That particular "tribe", fantasy and all, still put me to shame for being good people. Including specifically in the more intellecual impersonal justice/fairness ways that I generally like to think I have down. The observation about the harms of religion, in this case without an actual example of how it applies in this case, ends up only looking defensive. What are you threatened by that you feel the need to try to attack the simple assertion that some people are nice?

prawn 2y ago

I'd guess that it just came about after the wildfire story, and a few curious people looking further into it. From my one experience at a Langar event, it really was as advertised - very welcoming, zero pitch or expectation and quite refreshing.

nkoren 2y ago

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it were organic, spurred on to some extent by recent news in Canada. Many years ago I worked on a project in Amritsar, which had me regularly engaged with the Golden Temple (the most sacred place in the Sikh religion) authorities. I have to say that all the Sikhs I interacted with were fantastic: honest, generous, hard-working, fun-loving, good-hearted people. I do think a lot of this was grounded in Sikh religious principles, which promote a kind of radical moderation that's actually pretty unique among religions. (the story goes that the founding guru of the Sikhs had two sons, one of whom destroyed his life with gambling and alcohol, and the other of whom destroyed his life with asceticism and abstinence. The guru repudiated both of them, saying that the latter was as much of a vice as the former. Instead, he preached that the point of life was to be happy, and to make other people happy: have a family and take good care of it, take care of other people, don't be an asshole, and have a good time. Balance these imperatives well, and you're doing God's work. As far as organised religions go, it's really pretty great. And langar at the Golden Temple is a truly amazing experience. Men and women from every strata of society, from every religion, sitting down together to eat good food in silence. No preaching or any other bullshit -- the shared togetherness and humanity is enough. Honestly, it's profound. One of my dreams for later in life, when I have the time, is to go back there for a few weeks and volunteer to cook in their kitchen. That said: Sikhs aren't all cuddles and sunshine. Early in their history they were strictly pacifistic, and also heavily persecuted. After a while, one of the head Gurus decided that if the way to do God's work was to live a good life, and there were oppressors who were committed to preventing you from doing so, then a necessary part of God's work would require, er, helping those oppressors to reincarnate as quickly as possible. Ever since then, they haven't been keen on turning the other cheek, and have had a very strong martial/military culture. There's still a very strong ethic that you shouldn't use violence unless there's absolutely no alternative -- but if you do have to use violence, then you might as well be bloody good at it. But of course the more that one participates in violence, the greyer the morality becomes. So I wouldn't dare wade into the India vs. Khalistan conflict: I'm sure that many of the beefs on both sides are well-founded at this point. But if you can separate the culture and the religion from the politics -- then yeah, it's a really great thing they've got going on there, and I think it's great for the world to have more exposure to it.

2y ago

copx 2y ago

I think it's the same phenomenon as with the Kurds. Both groups need the West because they are existentially threatened in their native region and have no other allies. The Kurds are surrounded / occupied by Turks, Arabs, and Iranians - all who have a long history of trying to exterminate the Kurdish people / culture. Sikhs aren't any better off with their native lands being ruled by either Hindus or Muslims, two groups who have a long history of trying to exterminate the Sikhs. That's why both groups - quite frankly - suck up to the West so hard and are often picture perfect immigrants because they really don't want to be sent back. Because whatever "racism" you might think exists in the West, it is nothing compared to the religious hatred coming from Muslims and (to a lesser extend) Hindus.

rldjbpin 2y ago
Interesting parallels, but some important distinctions needed: - Kurds have at least a millennium-old history [1], while Sikhism is much more recent in comparison. The latter do not share the same level of regional complexities as besides the diaspora migrating in the past century, their presence is shared between two countries split up during their independence. - In recent history we have seen armed conflicts with Kurd factions, especially in Syria, but this has not been the case for the past decades for the latter. The insurgent movements [2] for the latter were much like the IRA movement, in the past but not forgotten for some. From my eyes, it seems that a vocal small section of the expat population wants to promote the separatist ideals, for the land they have long left not out of fear of prosecution solely for their identity. The original article is a reflection of the act of servitude to others, but it is must be viewed separately from the conflicts a part of the group following the faith might have elsewhere. [1] http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/kurdish-language-i http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/kurdish-language-i [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalistan_movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalistan_movement