4 ms·

Anything to stop a non-EU resident owning an EU company that owns a Spanish home?

matt-p 2y ago
Of course not! Such an insane plan.
rapatel0 2y ago
One of the more effective (but potentially over reaching) parts of EU law is that the governments usually give enforcement powers with discretion on how to enforce them. On the one hand it’s annoying because there are no clear rules for how to do business at times. On the other hand, it does typically do a better job of articulating the “spirit of the law” and not allowing people to hack around the letter of the law. I’m pretty sure if using a hack became a trend, then they would start suing people in a few years down the road and extract all the money.
V__ 2y ago
It's not trivial to set up a business as a non-eu citizien. As far as I know every EU business has to have an eu citizen representative. Additionally, a company owned property can't just be used privately.
- gruez 2y ago
  >As far as I know every EU business has to have an eu citizen representative You can't hire a nominee director? >Additionally, a company owned property can't just be used privately. They can't "rent" it back to the owner?
  - ajb 2y ago
    That sort of thing is a bit risky. One company I followed was bought out by a US vehicle owned by a Chinese investor, and then everything ground to a halt because (it appears[1]) the local agent fraudulently changed the bank accounts into their own name and locked out the owner. Operating stuff in a foreign legal jurisdiction is hard. [1] this seems to have been the judgement of the court, but not all the fillings are free to access.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > the local agent fraudulently changed the bank accounts into their own name and locked out the owner This sounds like a front more than a nominee. A front legally owns the company and has a side deal with someone conferring control. It's pretty much straight-up fraud. A nominee is similar to a Delaware registered agent; you pay a law firm or whatever a few hundred euro a year to be your glorified P.O. Box
      - ajb 2y ago
        I'm not really sure what the technical details were. This is the complaint, in case anyone is curious: https://trellis.law/doc/159246087/complaint-case-initiation-complaint-filed-by-nautical-hero-group-llc-axiom-united-holdings-llc-vitality-international-management-llc-li-wenhui-refers-to-gao-ping https://trellis.law/doc/159246087/complaint-case-initiation-... Although obviously that's only from one side. If may be that it's less risky if there's a common service such as you describe, since the operator will prefer to keep their business going. But if significant assets are involved it may still be somewhat risky. (This was the company that supposedly ended up with the IP of the Kestrel aircraft, formerly owned by Alan Klapmeier and originated by Richard Noble as the Farnborough F1)
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > if significant assets are involved it may still be somewhat risky No more than any asset in the EU. A nominee can steal your property about as easily as any notary.
        ajb 2y ago
        Thee context here (and upthread) is about needing a nominee because you aren't in the country. IE if you were in country you'd control the asset directly.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > needing a nominee because you aren't in the country. IE if you were in country you'd control the asset directly Yes. A nominee is just a local contact of record. If a nominee can steal your shit, any rando with a notary can, too.
  - rad_gruchalski 2y ago
    The „owner” is the company.
    - codetrotter 2y ago
      He's saying the company could rent the building to the owner of the company.
      - rad_gruchalski 2y ago
        It’s not really clear what they mean.
        codetrotter 2y ago
        Person A sets up a company in foreign country. Company buys a building in the country. Company rents out the building to Person A.
        rad_gruchalski 2y ago
        Yes yes thanks
    - gruez 2y ago
      fine. "actual" owner, "ultimate beneficial owner", etc.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > You can't hire a nominee director? Yes, you can, and it's very common. Couple hundred euros in Cyprus [1]. [1] https://blog.wamo.io/how-much-does-it-cost-to-open-a-company-in-cyprus/ https://blog.wamo.io/how-much-does-it-cost-to-open-a-company...
    - defrost 2y ago
      Yep. I've a longterm "internet friend" and Cyprus resident/native who has been grumbling about this for two decades now, his principal complaint is the sheer number of Russians back dooring their way into becoming an EU company via Cyprus and screwing up the cost of living, housing, etc for the locals who suffer from the pressure of rich transients who do little for the community. A common enough templte compliant the world over, but it has grounds. He'll also admit it's not just the Russians but many others also.
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > He'll also admit it's not just the Russians but many others also Limassol is friendly to Russians. If you're American, the go-to is Ireland, though Luxembourg is trying to eat their lunch. (If you're Chinese, Hungary and Poland.)
        defrost 2y ago
        In short, there are significant business opportunities for EU citizens willing to front an EU company for other non EU parties.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > significant business opportunities for EU citizens willing to front an EU company for other non EU parties I'm describing plain-vanilla incorporation or the buying of an incorporated business. No fronting.
      - nradov 2y ago
        As a bloc, the EU should be encouraging Russians to move assets out of Russia because this reduces the tax base for the Putin regime. Do everything possible to destroy the Russian economy. Of course, this can have disruptive effects in some local areas like Cyprus.
- matt-p 2y ago
  I'm British and it's very easy to setup EU companies, many UK companies have HAD to due to Brexit.
- matt-p 2y ago
  >As far as I know every EU business has to have an eu citizen representative. Not at all true, infact it's becoming the exception rather than the rule, look at; Estonia, Ireland, Netherlands, Cyprus, Bulgaria, Hungary. Even in Germany I think it's beginning to become possible. >Additionally, a company owned property can't just be used privately. Um yes, the company rents it out?
- Beijinger 2y ago
  "a company owned property can't just be used privately." Why not?
zxspectrum1982 2y ago
It's illegal according to European Union law so this is just one more lie by Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez. https://www.vozpopuli.com/economia/el-castigo-fiscal-a-los-compradores-no-residentes-vulnera-el-derecho-de-la-ue-con-la-vivienda.html https://www.vozpopuli.com/economia/el-castigo-fiscal-a-los-c...
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > It's illegal according to European Union law Is this firmly established or contended? Article 63 of the Treaty of Lisbon [1] bans "all restrictions on the movement of capital between Member States and between Member States and third countries" [2]. To define "movement of capital," we must look to Annex I to Council Directive 88/361/EEC of 24 June 1988 [3]. It says "purchases of buildings and land and the construction of buildings by private persons for gain or personal use," including explicitly "investments in real estate on national territory by non-residents" counts. Looks clear cut! That said, there appears to be a long history of challenging what constitutes a "restriction," because EU. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Functioning_of_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Functioning_of_t... [2] https://blogs.kcl.ac.uk/kslreuropeanlawblog/?tag=article-63-tfeu https://blogs.kcl.ac.uk/kslreuropeanlawblog/?tag=article-63-... [3] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:31988L0361 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELE...
  - zxspectrum1982 2y ago
    It is firmly established. Read the article I linked.
iforgot22 2y ago
Or non-EU resident investing in an EU real estate fund?

Of course not! Such an insane plan.

One of the more effective (but potentially over reaching) parts of EU law is that the governments usually give enforcement powers with discretion on how to enforce them. On the one hand it’s annoying because there are no clear rules for how to do business at times. On the other hand, it does typically do a better job of articulating the “spirit of the law” and not allowing people to hack around the letter of the law. I’m pretty sure if using a hack became a trend, then they would start suing people in a few years down the road and extract all the money.

V__ 2y ago

It's not trivial to set up a business as a non-eu citizien. As far as I know every EU business has to have an eu citizen representative. Additionally, a company owned property can't just be used privately.

gruez 2y ago
>As far as I know every EU business has to have an eu citizen representative You can't hire a nominee director? >Additionally, a company owned property can't just be used privately. They can't "rent" it back to the owner?
- ajb 2y ago
  That sort of thing is a bit risky. One company I followed was bought out by a US vehicle owned by a Chinese investor, and then everything ground to a halt because (it appears[1]) the local agent fraudulently changed the bank accounts into their own name and locked out the owner. Operating stuff in a foreign legal jurisdiction is hard. [1] this seems to have been the judgement of the court, but not all the fillings are free to access.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > the local agent fraudulently changed the bank accounts into their own name and locked out the owner This sounds like a front more than a nominee. A front legally owns the company and has a side deal with someone conferring control. It's pretty much straight-up fraud. A nominee is similar to a Delaware registered agent; you pay a law firm or whatever a few hundred euro a year to be your glorified P.O. Box
    - ajb 2y ago
      I'm not really sure what the technical details were. This is the complaint, in case anyone is curious: https://trellis.law/doc/159246087/complaint-case-initiation-complaint-filed-by-nautical-hero-group-llc-axiom-united-holdings-llc-vitality-international-management-llc-li-wenhui-refers-to-gao-ping https://trellis.law/doc/159246087/complaint-case-initiation-... Although obviously that's only from one side. If may be that it's less risky if there's a common service such as you describe, since the operator will prefer to keep their business going. But if significant assets are involved it may still be somewhat risky. (This was the company that supposedly ended up with the IP of the Kestrel aircraft, formerly owned by Alan Klapmeier and originated by Richard Noble as the Farnborough F1)
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > if significant assets are involved it may still be somewhat risky No more than any asset in the EU. A nominee can steal your property about as easily as any notary.
        ajb 2y ago
        Thee context here (and upthread) is about needing a nominee because you aren't in the country. IE if you were in country you'd control the asset directly.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > needing a nominee because you aren't in the country. IE if you were in country you'd control the asset directly Yes. A nominee is just a local contact of record. If a nominee can steal your shit, any rando with a notary can, too.
- rad_gruchalski 2y ago
  The „owner” is the company.
  - codetrotter 2y ago
    He's saying the company could rent the building to the owner of the company.
    - rad_gruchalski 2y ago
      It’s not really clear what they mean.
      - codetrotter 2y ago
        Person A sets up a company in foreign country. Company buys a building in the country. Company rents out the building to Person A.
        rad_gruchalski 2y ago
        Yes yes thanks
  - gruez 2y ago
    fine. "actual" owner, "ultimate beneficial owner", etc.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > You can't hire a nominee director? Yes, you can, and it's very common. Couple hundred euros in Cyprus [1]. [1] https://blog.wamo.io/how-much-does-it-cost-to-open-a-company-in-cyprus/ https://blog.wamo.io/how-much-does-it-cost-to-open-a-company...
  - defrost 2y ago
    Yep. I've a longterm "internet friend" and Cyprus resident/native who has been grumbling about this for two decades now, his principal complaint is the sheer number of Russians back dooring their way into becoming an EU company via Cyprus and screwing up the cost of living, housing, etc for the locals who suffer from the pressure of rich transients who do little for the community. A common enough templte compliant the world over, but it has grounds. He'll also admit it's not just the Russians but many others also.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > He'll also admit it's not just the Russians but many others also Limassol is friendly to Russians. If you're American, the go-to is Ireland, though Luxembourg is trying to eat their lunch. (If you're Chinese, Hungary and Poland.)
      - defrost 2y ago
        In short, there are significant business opportunities for EU citizens willing to front an EU company for other non EU parties.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > significant business opportunities for EU citizens willing to front an EU company for other non EU parties I'm describing plain-vanilla incorporation or the buying of an incorporated business. No fronting.
    - nradov 2y ago
      As a bloc, the EU should be encouraging Russians to move assets out of Russia because this reduces the tax base for the Putin regime. Do everything possible to destroy the Russian economy. Of course, this can have disruptive effects in some local areas like Cyprus.
matt-p 2y ago
I'm British and it's very easy to setup EU companies, many UK companies have HAD to due to Brexit.
matt-p 2y ago
>As far as I know every EU business has to have an eu citizen representative. Not at all true, infact it's becoming the exception rather than the rule, look at; Estonia, Ireland, Netherlands, Cyprus, Bulgaria, Hungary. Even in Germany I think it's beginning to become possible. >Additionally, a company owned property can't just be used privately. Um yes, the company rents it out?
Beijinger 2y ago
"a company owned property can't just be used privately." Why not?

zxspectrum1982 2y ago

It's illegal according to European Union law so this is just one more lie by Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez. https://www.vozpopuli.com/economia/el-castigo-fiscal-a-los-compradores-no-residentes-vulnera-el-derecho-de-la-ue-con-la-vivienda.html https://www.vozpopuli.com/economia/el-castigo-fiscal-a-los-c...

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> It's illegal according to European Union law Is this firmly established or contended? Article 63 of the Treaty of Lisbon [1] bans "all restrictions on the movement of capital between Member States and between Member States and third countries" [2]. To define "movement of capital," we must look to Annex I to Council Directive 88/361/EEC of 24 June 1988 [3]. It says "purchases of buildings and land and the construction of buildings by private persons for gain or personal use," including explicitly "investments in real estate on national territory by non-residents" counts. Looks clear cut! That said, there appears to be a long history of challenging what constitutes a "restriction," because EU. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Functioning_of_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Functioning_of_t... [2] https://blogs.kcl.ac.uk/kslreuropeanlawblog/?tag=article-63-tfeu https://blogs.kcl.ac.uk/kslreuropeanlawblog/?tag=article-63-... [3] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:31988L0361 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELE...
- zxspectrum1982 2y ago
  It is firmly established. Read the article I linked.

iforgot22 2y ago

Or non-EU resident investing in an EU real estate fund?