7 ms·

Palm did it: better experience than Apple

50 points by MaysonL 18y ago

pclark 18y ago
nothing drives traffic harder than an "x > Apple at y!" post!
TweedHeads 18y ago
What is scoble smoking lately?
redrobot5050 18y ago
Um, while a product is still vapor (hasn't shipped yet, genius) its a little hard to declare it a winner. How many concept cars has GM made that would own ALL other cars out there, only to have them produce a Pontiac Sun Fire with a different body kit? (Original re-make of the GTO, I'm looking at you.) (Disclaimer: Some of my friends from college work at Palm now. If you're reading this this, Matt, good job, I think your product kicked ass.)
- tptacek 18y ago
  Read it as if he's evaluating the product on the merits, not as if he's predicting the market. The iPhone is going to crush this thing, but it's still a nice looking device.
  - redrobot5050 18y ago
    I know, I'm just saying, sometimes features get pulled at the last minute on behest of the carrier or because they're not "stable" enough -- or cost. Until it ships, its hard to judge. But competition is good, tho. I'm in favor of Palm kicking ass and taking names.
mdasen 18y ago
I hope so. As a Sprint customer, I've been waiting for such a device. As a general consumer, I'm glad that others are challenging Apple. I love Apple, but I also like others to be able to challenge them. In my opinion, no one was able to match the iPod for ease of use and size. The Palm pre is at least dimensionally competitive at a mere 2grams heavier and only 15% greater volume (a real keyboard takes up some space). It's nice to see someone who hasn't decided, "we can make it kinda appear to be an iPhone" in the way that the G1 disappointed with its lack of multi-touch capabilities. Hopefully Palm will pull it off!
- anthonyrubin 18y ago
  There are numerous Android devices planned for the near future. I own a G1 and I see it as a development platform. The hardware leaves something to be desired, but Android is actually quite nice.
timae 18y ago
But Apple did it first, that counts for a lot. Palm's UI looks awesome, but it wouldn't be as cool if Apple didn't pave the way a bit. Not taking anything away, they did a much better job at building off of Apple's innovation than RIM did with the Storm (the phone I currently have - forced to stick with BlackBerry for work).
- chedigitz 18y ago
  I agree. I'm extremely happy that Palm is back in the game. However you can't count apple out, the current iPhone is still 2 year old technology, and I expect the new incarnation to blow everything out of the water. I still want a pre, since its a gorgeous UI.
  - rbanffy 18y ago
    Apple is swimming in money. You really can't count them off. On the bright side (for Palm), Microsoft is swimming in money too and they accomplished little more than licensing a sub-par Windows CE thing to just about every maker of quasismartphones and crushing Palm in the process. Never forget Palm owned the PDA market after crushing Apple out of it and created the smartphone market with the first Treos. They did a lot of things wrong, but with adequate funding and adequate brains, they can do a lot.
gojomo 18y ago
The Palm Pre looks great -- but has Scoble touched/used one? Until then, definitive judgments are premature.
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
swombat 18y ago
I hate to sound like an Apple fanboy, but you need more than a pretty phone to dethrone the iPhone. The App store is the best thing since sliced bread. The ever-growing developer enthusiasm for the iPhone is a huge factor too. And if webOS is basically web-based, that means that all of Palm's apps will be available on the iPhone, but none of the iPhone's apps will be available on the Palm Pre. Not exactly a winning proposition. Well done for getting the design close to Apple's standards (though they had to poach a team of Apple people to do that, all the way down to the packaging that looks just like Apple's), but being a second fiddle won't win this war... This is not to say that it won't be successful. This Pre is clearly a slick piece of kit. But it won't be anywhere as successful as the iPhone, and certainly won't do "better" than the iPhone.
- rbanffy 18y ago
  "And if webOS is basically web-based, that means that all of Palm's apps will be available on the iPhone, but none of the iPhone's apps will be available on the Palm Pre" You are counting on webOS being nothing more than a WebKit browser. I am sure that's not the case. I am also sure the iPhone is not the primary target the Pre is aimed at. There is a host of Windows Mobile, RIM and Symbian slightlycleverphones (it takes more than a qwerty keyboard to be a smartphone) that are pretty much in Palm's crosshairs. And, sorry to say, you sound like an Apple fanboy ;-) I know. I sound like one very frequently.
  - jemmons 18y ago
    "You are counting on webOS being nothing more than a WebKit browser. I am sure that's not the case." Even if it's not, the fact remains that apps written in HTML+CSS+javascript (what's more, HTML+CSS+JS tweaked to run on WebKit) will be trivial to port to the iPhone -- not just because the iPhone has a fantastic webkit browser, but because the apps themselves will be trivial. The Pre, at best, will be a phone of widgets (I like your "slightly clever phone" moniker). I've made my share of widgets, and I know they can be both fun and useful. But after three months of game development on the iPhone, I would hang myself if I didn't have Cocoa. The Pre is going to see twenty versions of Lights Out, but you'll never see a Cro Mag or a Crayon Physics. When people go on about the iPhone being a "computer in your pocket" they're talking about Cocoa its OS X underpinnings. Mojo and WebOS, at best, put safari in your pocket, and the iPhone already does that for cheaper. Maybe you're right, and the Palm doesn't have the iPhone in its crosshairs. But I'm not sure how that helps them.
jemmons 18y ago
"Palm’s bet on social networking integration is a game changer ... That is huge and not many people will get it." Umm, how can a social anything be huge if not many people get it? The Zune wasn't just social, it was The Social -- and no one got it.
- wavesplash 18y ago
  "not many people" are the writers/reviewers. Scoble has a good point. The Zune network assumed you were within proximity of another Zune user. That would be cool if everyone had a Zune, sort of. If you're under 35 most of your friends have Facebook accounts and the network doesn't partition when you move 30 feet ;)
bprater 18y ago
I love my iPhone. But giving developers the option to cook up apps in HTML/JS is a very slick move. I don't know how it'll play out, but any average web developer will be able to immediately pump out an app without breaking open a iPhone SDK tome. I don't know if it's possible to advance against the AppStore line of offense, but it's a seriously smart move. I think their next coup should be to create an "open framework" so that other phone designers can latch on to whatever OS-specific hooks Palm plans on using. I feel like this is critical. It can't be a closed framework.
- anatoli 18y ago
  While I don't disagree that there is something nifty about HTML/CSS/JS apps, I think we've all seen that this is not enough. Remember, first iPhone was in the same position - no SDK, just "widgets" and that didn't exactly fly with the developers. As somebody who's developed some widgets, I can say that there just isn't enough to go on in JavaScript to create full-powered apps, such as the ones available on iPhone now. More importantly, in regards to this: "any average web developer will be able to immediately pump out an app without breaking open a iPhone SDK tome." Any average web developer can pump out a widget for iPhone, afaik, so I would disagree that this is an advantage that the Palm Pre has.
  - bprater 18y ago
    Widget, maybe. I was specifically talking about something akin to a "native" app. You need hooks to the OS, period, for developers to be happy. Maybe we need a new word for HTML/JS/CSS apps that have OS-specific hooks. Widget is a horrible word.
Dauntless 18y ago
Now it's down to better marketing...
Tichy 18y ago
What he writes sounds good actually. I hope very much that he is right, because I couldn't yet bring myself to buy an iPhone, but there are no real alternatives yet, either.
adk 18y ago
I am very interested in all this talk about third party apps for the phone being written in Html + Javascript. If executed well, it means an army of developers ready to start coding away and tons of libraries and existing apps ready to be plugged in. If executed the iPhone way, it means mostly crappy mini websites, masquerading as apps, for a while and then a decent native SDK a year later.
timothyandrew 18y ago
I think it took an iPhone for the other guys to get innovative like this. I really like this interface, though unfortunately it'll take more than that to dethrone the iPhone; though I don't think anyone can be sure until they've actually used it.
ahoyhere 18y ago
Palm has never been as cool as Apple. Palm hardware has always been "organization pr0n," which only appeals to a small subset. The iPhone is seen as cool; it is the most desirable phone. People are bending over backwards to afford one (the most iPhone growth over the past 2 quarters has been in low-middle and low class income groups). Apple paved the way with iPods. I think Palm will have a very hard time selling the Pre to people outside the geeky / careering groups where orgpr0n still appeals. Even if the user experience is better, the market hasn't been conditioned fr it.
rms 18y ago
It certainly sounds good enough, and I'm stuck on Sprint, so I think this will be my phone unless an interesting Android phone hits around the same time.

50 points by MaysonL 18y ago

pclark 18y ago

nothing drives traffic harder than an "x > Apple at y!" post!

TweedHeads 18y ago

What is scoble smoking lately?

redrobot5050 18y ago

Um, while a product is still vapor (hasn't shipped yet, genius) its a little hard to declare it a winner. How many concept cars has GM made that would own ALL other cars out there, only to have them produce a Pontiac Sun Fire with a different body kit? (Original re-make of the GTO, I'm looking at you.) (Disclaimer: Some of my friends from college work at Palm now. If you're reading this this, Matt, good job, I think your product kicked ass.)

tptacek 18y ago
Read it as if he's evaluating the product on the merits, not as if he's predicting the market. The iPhone is going to crush this thing, but it's still a nice looking device.
- redrobot5050 18y ago
  I know, I'm just saying, sometimes features get pulled at the last minute on behest of the carrier or because they're not "stable" enough -- or cost. Until it ships, its hard to judge. But competition is good, tho. I'm in favor of Palm kicking ass and taking names.

mdasen 18y ago

I hope so. As a Sprint customer, I've been waiting for such a device. As a general consumer, I'm glad that others are challenging Apple. I love Apple, but I also like others to be able to challenge them. In my opinion, no one was able to match the iPod for ease of use and size. The Palm pre is at least dimensionally competitive at a mere 2grams heavier and only 15% greater volume (a real keyboard takes up some space). It's nice to see someone who hasn't decided, "we can make it kinda appear to be an iPhone" in the way that the G1 disappointed with its lack of multi-touch capabilities. Hopefully Palm will pull it off!

anthonyrubin 18y ago
There are numerous Android devices planned for the near future. I own a G1 and I see it as a development platform. The hardware leaves something to be desired, but Android is actually quite nice.

timae 18y ago

But Apple did it first, that counts for a lot. Palm's UI looks awesome, but it wouldn't be as cool if Apple didn't pave the way a bit. Not taking anything away, they did a much better job at building off of Apple's innovation than RIM did with the Storm (the phone I currently have - forced to stick with BlackBerry for work).

chedigitz 18y ago
I agree. I'm extremely happy that Palm is back in the game. However you can't count apple out, the current iPhone is still 2 year old technology, and I expect the new incarnation to blow everything out of the water. I still want a pre, since its a gorgeous UI.
- rbanffy 18y ago
  Apple is swimming in money. You really can't count them off. On the bright side (for Palm), Microsoft is swimming in money too and they accomplished little more than licensing a sub-par Windows CE thing to just about every maker of quasismartphones and crushing Palm in the process. Never forget Palm owned the PDA market after crushing Apple out of it and created the smartphone market with the first Treos. They did a lot of things wrong, but with adequate funding and adequate brains, they can do a lot.

gojomo 18y ago

The Palm Pre looks great -- but has Scoble touched/used one? Until then, definitive judgments are premature.

deleted 18y ago
[deleted]

swombat 18y ago

I hate to sound like an Apple fanboy, but you need more than a pretty phone to dethrone the iPhone. The App store is the best thing since sliced bread. The ever-growing developer enthusiasm for the iPhone is a huge factor too. And if webOS is basically web-based, that means that all of Palm's apps will be available on the iPhone, but none of the iPhone's apps will be available on the Palm Pre. Not exactly a winning proposition. Well done for getting the design close to Apple's standards (though they had to poach a team of Apple people to do that, all the way down to the packaging that looks just like Apple's), but being a second fiddle won't win this war... This is not to say that it won't be successful. This Pre is clearly a slick piece of kit. But it won't be anywhere as successful as the iPhone, and certainly won't do "better" than the iPhone.

rbanffy 18y ago
"And if webOS is basically web-based, that means that all of Palm's apps will be available on the iPhone, but none of the iPhone's apps will be available on the Palm Pre" You are counting on webOS being nothing more than a WebKit browser. I am sure that's not the case. I am also sure the iPhone is not the primary target the Pre is aimed at. There is a host of Windows Mobile, RIM and Symbian slightlycleverphones (it takes more than a qwerty keyboard to be a smartphone) that are pretty much in Palm's crosshairs. And, sorry to say, you sound like an Apple fanboy ;-) I know. I sound like one very frequently.
- jemmons 18y ago
  "You are counting on webOS being nothing more than a WebKit browser. I am sure that's not the case." Even if it's not, the fact remains that apps written in HTML+CSS+javascript (what's more, HTML+CSS+JS tweaked to run on WebKit) will be trivial to port to the iPhone -- not just because the iPhone has a fantastic webkit browser, but because the apps themselves will be trivial. The Pre, at best, will be a phone of widgets (I like your "slightly clever phone" moniker). I've made my share of widgets, and I know they can be both fun and useful. But after three months of game development on the iPhone, I would hang myself if I didn't have Cocoa. The Pre is going to see twenty versions of Lights Out, but you'll never see a Cro Mag or a Crayon Physics. When people go on about the iPhone being a "computer in your pocket" they're talking about Cocoa its OS X underpinnings. Mojo and WebOS, at best, put safari in your pocket, and the iPhone already does that for cheaper. Maybe you're right, and the Palm doesn't have the iPhone in its crosshairs. But I'm not sure how that helps them.

jemmons 18y ago

"Palm’s bet on social networking integration is a game changer ... That is huge and not many people will get it." Umm, how can a social anything be huge if not many people get it? The Zune wasn't just social, it was The Social -- and no one got it.

wavesplash 18y ago
"not many people" are the writers/reviewers. Scoble has a good point. The Zune network assumed you were within proximity of another Zune user. That would be cool if everyone had a Zune, sort of. If you're under 35 most of your friends have Facebook accounts and the network doesn't partition when you move 30 feet ;)

bprater 18y ago

I love my iPhone. But giving developers the option to cook up apps in HTML/JS is a very slick move. I don't know how it'll play out, but any average web developer will be able to immediately pump out an app without breaking open a iPhone SDK tome. I don't know if it's possible to advance against the AppStore line of offense, but it's a seriously smart move. I think their next coup should be to create an "open framework" so that other phone designers can latch on to whatever OS-specific hooks Palm plans on using. I feel like this is critical. It can't be a closed framework.

anatoli 18y ago
While I don't disagree that there is something nifty about HTML/CSS/JS apps, I think we've all seen that this is not enough. Remember, first iPhone was in the same position - no SDK, just "widgets" and that didn't exactly fly with the developers. As somebody who's developed some widgets, I can say that there just isn't enough to go on in JavaScript to create full-powered apps, such as the ones available on iPhone now. More importantly, in regards to this: "any average web developer will be able to immediately pump out an app without breaking open a iPhone SDK tome." Any average web developer can pump out a widget for iPhone, afaik, so I would disagree that this is an advantage that the Palm Pre has.
- bprater 18y ago
  Widget, maybe. I was specifically talking about something akin to a "native" app. You need hooks to the OS, period, for developers to be happy. Maybe we need a new word for HTML/JS/CSS apps that have OS-specific hooks. Widget is a horrible word.

Dauntless 18y ago

Now it's down to better marketing...

Tichy 18y ago

What he writes sounds good actually. I hope very much that he is right, because I couldn't yet bring myself to buy an iPhone, but there are no real alternatives yet, either.

adk 18y ago

I am very interested in all this talk about third party apps for the phone being written in Html + Javascript. If executed well, it means an army of developers ready to start coding away and tons of libraries and existing apps ready to be plugged in. If executed the iPhone way, it means mostly crappy mini websites, masquerading as apps, for a while and then a decent native SDK a year later.

timothyandrew 18y ago

I think it took an iPhone for the other guys to get innovative like this. I really like this interface, though unfortunately it'll take more than that to dethrone the iPhone; though I don't think anyone can be sure until they've actually used it.

ahoyhere 18y ago

Palm has never been as cool as Apple. Palm hardware has always been "organization pr0n," which only appeals to a small subset. The iPhone is seen as cool; it is the most desirable phone. People are bending over backwards to afford one (the most iPhone growth over the past 2 quarters has been in low-middle and low class income groups). Apple paved the way with iPods. I think Palm will have a very hard time selling the Pre to people outside the geeky / careering groups where orgpr0n still appeals. Even if the user experience is better, the market hasn't been conditioned fr it.

rms 18y ago

It certainly sounds good enough, and I'm stuck on Sprint, so I think this will be my phone unless an interesting Android phone hits around the same time.