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Having talked to Ukrainian refugees I strongly believe there's is some civilizational gap between certain countries in how they perceive systematic violence, es

Having talked to Ukrainian refugees I strongly believe there's is some civilizational gap between certain countries in how they perceive systematic violence, especially killing people for resources. In Western civilization, there is no universal support for it. That's why when Bush prepared for the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, he couldn't really count for a wide coalition (his infamous "you forgot Poland!") and there were the biggest anti-war protests in the history of modern Europe, with millions of people going out on the streets. We, Westerners, hate killing people - whether they are Arabs, Afghans, Vietnamese. As for Russians, I'm not so sure - it was enough to convince people that Ukrainians are Nazi and the killing started.

api 2y ago
Western distaste for killing is a recent-ish phenomenon and is by no means universal. I don't think it would be that hard for us to go back to those days. Civilization can be a thin veneer.
- benterix 2y ago
  I disagree. After the two wars there is nobody who couldn't see that war is pure evil. That's why the initial project than later became the EU appeared - so that a war never appears in Europe again. If anything, today we hate it more than ever.
  - mindslight 2y ago
    And when all of those people who remember the horrors of war, or at least heard first person accounts, have passed on?
  - ossobuco 2y ago
    Facts simply disagree with you. The USA took part in (too) many bloody wars and invasions since WWII. After Iraq, one would have hoped Americans finally learnt the lesson, yet Biden was voted president, after backing the invasions of Afghanistan, Iraq, and Lybia. Even Obama championed drone strikes around the world and supported Saudi Arabia's invasion of Yemen. If there's a lesson to be learned, it seems to constantly evade Americans' attempts to grasp it.
    - benterix 2y ago
      I agree that the USA is different from Europe in this respect. The invasion on Afghanistan and Iraq was completely wrong, and in the case of Iraq based on falsified information, and the final result was worse than before. And although I'm happy Obama withdrew the troops from Iraq and Biden from Afghanistan, it looks like there simply wasn't an exit plan and responsibility for the people left behind. They had to deal with the consequences of wars waged by Bush under the impulse of 9/11 with no good outcome. Still, when you look at the perception of war by Americans, starting with Vietnam, you see that people don't like killing. "In the course of the war, there developed in the United States the greatest anti-war movement the nation had ever experienced, a movement that played a critical role in bringing the war to an end." [0] This is a phenomenon that you don't see in Russia where people learned very well that if they want to stay away from big trouble for them and their families, they must not speak out in any way. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_United_States_involvement_in_the_Vietnam_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_United_States_in...
      - ossobuco 2y ago
        It seems the West has found the perfect solution. Allow protests as long as they don't become dangerous, but keep waging wars without any compromise. People (some of them at least) will vote either way, and you can now claim to be better than everyone else, while detaining the record for most killed civilians!
        benterix 2y ago
        Europe didn't start any war after WWII. leadership reflect the people so if Europeans were blood-hungry, they would kill - for territory, for money, for resources. Instead, people slowly started to understand that we're all interconnected and war is just suffering. You can't really find any of XIX-century mentality like "Our nation is the best and we must fight with our neighbors" anymore - and it is thanks to the EU that Putin hates so much.
        ossobuco 2y ago

api 2y ago

Western distaste for killing is a recent-ish phenomenon and is by no means universal. I don't think it would be that hard for us to go back to those days. Civilization can be a thin veneer.

benterix 2y ago
I disagree. After the two wars there is nobody who couldn't see that war is pure evil. That's why the initial project than later became the EU appeared - so that a war never appears in Europe again. If anything, today we hate it more than ever.
- mindslight 2y ago
  And when all of those people who remember the horrors of war, or at least heard first person accounts, have passed on?
- ossobuco 2y ago
  Facts simply disagree with you. The USA took part in (too) many bloody wars and invasions since WWII. After Iraq, one would have hoped Americans finally learnt the lesson, yet Biden was voted president, after backing the invasions of Afghanistan, Iraq, and Lybia. Even Obama championed drone strikes around the world and supported Saudi Arabia's invasion of Yemen. If there's a lesson to be learned, it seems to constantly evade Americans' attempts to grasp it.
  - benterix 2y ago
    I agree that the USA is different from Europe in this respect. The invasion on Afghanistan and Iraq was completely wrong, and in the case of Iraq based on falsified information, and the final result was worse than before. And although I'm happy Obama withdrew the troops from Iraq and Biden from Afghanistan, it looks like there simply wasn't an exit plan and responsibility for the people left behind. They had to deal with the consequences of wars waged by Bush under the impulse of 9/11 with no good outcome. Still, when you look at the perception of war by Americans, starting with Vietnam, you see that people don't like killing. "In the course of the war, there developed in the United States the greatest anti-war movement the nation had ever experienced, a movement that played a critical role in bringing the war to an end." [0] This is a phenomenon that you don't see in Russia where people learned very well that if they want to stay away from big trouble for them and their families, they must not speak out in any way. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_United_States_involvement_in_the_Vietnam_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_United_States_in...
    - ossobuco 2y ago
      It seems the West has found the perfect solution. Allow protests as long as they don't become dangerous, but keep waging wars without any compromise. People (some of them at least) will vote either way, and you can now claim to be better than everyone else, while detaining the record for most killed civilians!
      - benterix 2y ago
        Europe didn't start any war after WWII. leadership reflect the people so if Europeans were blood-hungry, they would kill - for territory, for money, for resources. Instead, people slowly started to understand that we're all interconnected and war is just suffering. You can't really find any of XIX-century mentality like "Our nation is the best and we must fight with our neighbors" anymore - and it is thanks to the EU that Putin hates so much.
        ossobuco 2y ago