4 ms·

I remember reading the cargo cult story and thinking "ironically, I don't even know how accurate any of this is." Well, this article actually convinced me that

I remember reading the cargo cult story and thinking "ironically, I don't even know how accurate any of this is." Well, this article actually convinced me that the pop-sci description is fundamentally accurate. The author literally describes a cargo cult constructing bamboo radios to receive messages from spirits. That is perfectly described as imitating the outward appearance of methods one doesn't truly understand. I would not describe cargo cult programming as something that works for reasons unknown. Indeed, the worst instances I've seen do not work at all, completing the metaphor. The pop-sci omits some detail and the author takes issue with that. Sure, the precise origin is misattributed (is anything more American than thinking it all started with us?). But I do not think an astute reader would fail to realize that the islanders' misunderstandings come at great personal cost. That is what makes it serve as a great cautionary tale. They obviously had far better things to do than to construct these ritualistic trappings. And that actually happened!

jmull 2y ago
> That is perfectly described as imitating the outward appearance of methods one doesn't truly understand. A person could perfectly well understand how radios work, while still constructing bamboo ones to receive messages from spirits.
- sobellian 2y ago
  This is pretty generous, and while I'd like to believe it I don't think such a belief can be justified. The article, which is one of the best surveys on the matter I can find, doesn't really address whether the cargo cults understood modern technology. The furthest it goes is to state that for them, ritual was a kind of technology meant to achieve practical effects. We can say at the very least that the cargo cults did not understand how their rituals could achieve anything substantial.
culi 2y ago
Did we read the same article? > People were kidnapped and forced to work as laborers in other countries, a practice called blackbirding. Prime agricultural land was taken by planters to raise crops such as coconuts for export, with natives coerced into working for the planters. Up until 1919, employers were free to flog the natives for disobedience; afterward, flogging was technically forbidden but still took place. Colonial administrators jailed natives who stepped out of line. > The natives were saying that the spirits of their ancestors had appeared to several in the villages and told them that all flour, rice, tobacco, and other trade belonged to the New Guinea people, and that the white man had no right whatever to these goods These "cargo cults" are not a cult of people who think of these cargo as magical gifts. They are well aware of the socioeconomic forces that oppress them. They are cults of people who think that they are rightfully owed these goods How is that in any way similar to the pop sci definition?
- sobellian 2y ago
  My parent post is notably not about the context that drove the cultists to adopt their practice. Even so. The pop-sci definition, directly quoted: > During the war they saw airplanes land with lots of good materials, and they want the same thing to happen now. So they’ve arranged to make things like runways, to put fires along the sides of the runways, to make a wooden hut for a man to sit in, with two wooden pieces on his head like headphones and bars of bamboo sticking out like antennas Incomplete? Yes, since the practice predated planes. But it is accurate to say that the cults persisted during / after WW2 and that cargo from colonial powers drew the (understandable!) envy of the cultists. And it is undeniable that they undertook rituals to obtain cargo, and that those rituals could not have worked.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- stonemetal12 2y ago
  Just because they had cargo cults before WW2 doesn't make the WW2 cargo cults any less cargo culty. >New Guinea people, and that the white man had no right whatever to these goods And believed their ancestors were going show up on a cargo ship with free stuff. In the same way the oppressors came.
- lolinder 2y ago
  Did you read the rest of the article or just the first few paragraphs? The rest of it straight up describes the exact practices recounted in Feynman's telling of the story, including "a cult of people who think of these cargo as magical gifts" as you call it. Yes, these came later according to TFA, and yes, there are dark undertones and overtones throughout, but if you read the article I'm not sure how you can argue that Feynman's version bears no similarity to fact. It's basically in TFA verbatim. The only thing they really claim Feynman was missing was context.
jrowen 2y ago
I agreed. Based on some of the early comments I went in expecting the article to be a little more purely "woke" but I found it to be well-written and well-researched, and it does make some interesting points. On the whole though I think the pop-culture understanding rated as "true enough" to merit use of the phrase, and I was not convinced that the phrase is particularly hurtful to any particular group of people, partly because it is so disconnected from that and it's not really a slur or anything but more of a historical lesson or anecdote.

jmull 2y ago

> That is perfectly described as imitating the outward appearance of methods one doesn't truly understand. A person could perfectly well understand how radios work, while still constructing bamboo ones to receive messages from spirits.

sobellian 2y ago
This is pretty generous, and while I'd like to believe it I don't think such a belief can be justified. The article, which is one of the best surveys on the matter I can find, doesn't really address whether the cargo cults understood modern technology. The furthest it goes is to state that for them, ritual was a kind of technology meant to achieve practical effects. We can say at the very least that the cargo cults did not understand how their rituals could achieve anything substantial.

culi 2y ago

Did we read the same article? > People were kidnapped and forced to work as laborers in other countries, a practice called blackbirding. Prime agricultural land was taken by planters to raise crops such as coconuts for export, with natives coerced into working for the planters. Up until 1919, employers were free to flog the natives for disobedience; afterward, flogging was technically forbidden but still took place. Colonial administrators jailed natives who stepped out of line. > The natives were saying that the spirits of their ancestors had appeared to several in the villages and told them that all flour, rice, tobacco, and other trade belonged to the New Guinea people, and that the white man had no right whatever to these goods These "cargo cults" are not a cult of people who think of these cargo as magical gifts. They are well aware of the socioeconomic forces that oppress them. They are cults of people who think that they are rightfully owed these goods How is that in any way similar to the pop sci definition?

sobellian 2y ago
My parent post is notably not about the context that drove the cultists to adopt their practice. Even so. The pop-sci definition, directly quoted: > During the war they saw airplanes land with lots of good materials, and they want the same thing to happen now. So they’ve arranged to make things like runways, to put fires along the sides of the runways, to make a wooden hut for a man to sit in, with two wooden pieces on his head like headphones and bars of bamboo sticking out like antennas Incomplete? Yes, since the practice predated planes. But it is accurate to say that the cults persisted during / after WW2 and that cargo from colonial powers drew the (understandable!) envy of the cultists. And it is undeniable that they undertook rituals to obtain cargo, and that those rituals could not have worked.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
stonemetal12 2y ago
Just because they had cargo cults before WW2 doesn't make the WW2 cargo cults any less cargo culty. >New Guinea people, and that the white man had no right whatever to these goods And believed their ancestors were going show up on a cargo ship with free stuff. In the same way the oppressors came.
lolinder 2y ago
Did you read the rest of the article or just the first few paragraphs? The rest of it straight up describes the exact practices recounted in Feynman's telling of the story, including "a cult of people who think of these cargo as magical gifts" as you call it. Yes, these came later according to TFA, and yes, there are dark undertones and overtones throughout, but if you read the article I'm not sure how you can argue that Feynman's version bears no similarity to fact. It's basically in TFA verbatim. The only thing they really claim Feynman was missing was context.

jrowen 2y ago

I agreed. Based on some of the early comments I went in expecting the article to be a little more purely "woke" but I found it to be well-written and well-researched, and it does make some interesting points. On the whole though I think the pop-culture understanding rated as "true enough" to merit use of the phrase, and I was not convinced that the phrase is particularly hurtful to any particular group of people, partly because it is so disconnected from that and it's not really a slur or anything but more of a historical lesson or anecdote.