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China has dozens of even cheaper EVs. The best selling electric car in China - the Wuling Hongguang Mini EV [0] is just over $4,000 USD. There are now also conv

China has dozens of even cheaper EVs. The best selling electric car in China - the Wuling Hongguang Mini EV [0] is just over $4,000 USD. There are now also convertible and 5-door versions too. And a version being produced in the EU (Vilnius) that is just under 10,000EUR. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuling_Hongguang_Mini_EV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuling_Hongguang_Mini_EV

timewizard 2y ago
"Early models did not include a driver airbag, but later models such as the Mini EV Macaron include the feature as standard." You don't get what you don't pay for. Scary that's even an option.
- tomrod 2y ago
  When the median vehicle in the US is the size of a small commercial freight vehicle, absolutely. It's a vicious cycle driven entirely by gaps in CAFE standards and overcompensation for perceived personal flaws.
  - timewizard 2y ago
    > When the median vehicle in the US is the size of a small commercial freight vehicle, absolutely. It's the mass that matters. Even smaller cars, and in particular EVs, are getting heavier even though they're not getting larger. The major contributor to this weight gain is, yep, safety systems. > It's a vicious cycle driven entirely by gaps in CAFE standards and overcompensation for perceived personal flaws. I don't think you're being entirely objective. 1/6 of all vehicle fatalities are actually pedestrians. 1/6 are motorcycles. 1/2 involve drugs or alcohol. 1/2 are single car accidents. There's a lot of contributors to roadway fatalities, like people who get flung out of the vehicle. That still happens more than it should.
  - 1123581321 2y ago
    China is not a particularly safe country, going by road deaths. It would be foolish to think small cars make airbags unnecessary.
  - whatevaa 2y ago
    What does this has to do with missing airbags? Airbags should have never been optional, car size not relevant.
- Timshel 2y ago
  Depends of it's usage. To drive around a city at 30km/h do you need an airbag ? In this context safety for the passerby probably become more important. Looking at statistics for road death in Paris for part of 2024: - 9 on foot - 1 on bike - 8 on motorbike - 1 in a car Edit: only dead driver I could find for Paris was fleing the police and end-up in a tree.
  - AnonymousPlanet 2y ago
    That's the speed at which airbags are most effective. Or do you believe your airbag is going to do you much good at 120 km/h? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16210197/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16210197/
  - bufferoverflow 2y ago
    Who drives at 18 mph around the city? I am yet to see a city like that. And even if you did, there are other drivers that can crash into you at much higher speeds.
- bryanlarsen 2y ago
  The Wuling Mini is essentially a golf cart. The true comparison is to cars like the $12,000 BYD Seagull, which is fully safety rated and tested for sale in Europe.
gitdowndirty 2y ago
Most of these EV companies in China are going bankrupt, selling each car at a loss. Recently, Ji Yum Auto, founded by Baidu and Neely, shut down last December. A live streamer was live streaming selling the car. Upon hearing the news, she was bawling and told the listener to not to check out the car https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYdm2K81bW0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYdm2K81bW0. As Chinese EV makers close, drivers of “smartphones on wheels” say software updates and maintenance are in jeopardy. https://restofworld.org/2024/ev-company-shutdowns-china/ https://restofworld.org/2024/ev-company-shutdowns-china/
- bryanlarsen 2y ago
  To put this in perspective, the number of car manufacturers in China has dropped from 300 to 150 in the past few years. Further consolidation is expected. So it's probably a good idea to buy from an EV company that is profitable. For example BYD has a gross profit margin of over 20%. That's approximately double the profitability of Western firms.
  - bdangubic 2y ago
    yugo was also very profitable when it hit the US market with higher than 20% margins :)
wordofx 2y ago
There are a LOT of ev fires in China that get scrubbed from the internet and media in China. If you had Weibo you can see them almost daily. You get what you pay for. Cheap junk.
- kristopolous 2y ago
  The average new car price in the USA is $50,000 which is about as much as a house costs in japan.
  - judge2020 2y ago
    Which part of Japan? I found this in Osaka, somewhat far from the city center, for roughly 336k usd https://realestate.japantoday.com/en/forsale/view/1127651 https://realestate.japantoday.com/en/forsale/view/1127651
- mitthrowaway2 2y ago
  This is no doubt true. But this could either be an inevitable result of corner-cutting, or simply mistakes caused by inexperience, design errors, and poorly dialed-in process parameters. It matters is because in the former case, the unit cost advantage disappears as the problem gets solved. In the latter case, it does not.
- thfuran 2y ago
  There's something like 170,000 car fires per year in the US. It's just one of those things that's bad and too common to really make the news except maybe locally.
  - cscurmudgeon 2y ago
    Safety is also an issue https://www.repairerdrivennews.com/2024/10/30/byd-atto-3-receives-worst-euro-ncap-rating-mercedes-i5-best/ https://www.repairerdrivennews.com/2024/10/30/byd-atto-3-rec... > Mercedes’ i5 received the best score from Euro NCAP for driver-assistance functions, and BYD’s ATTO 3 receiving the worst score
glimshe 2y ago
I know China has a few great products nowadays but its reputation for low quality trash will take decades to change in the US, especially given geopolitical challenges. You can take risks with Temu gadgets but not cars where your loved ones will be riding. No amount of statistics will do given China's manufacturing history. I simply won't consider a Chinese car in the next 10 years irrespective of testimonials, articles, charts or price. If we want more EVs in the US, we need more competitive offerings from Korea, Europe, Japan and US itself.
- bryanlarsen 2y ago
  Both Japan and Korea had similar reputations and over came them quickly. Western consumers have noticed the pattern and will be much quicker to trust Chinese cars than they were to trust Japanese and Korean ones, assuming rightly or wrongly that the pattern applies. It helps that the initial product quality of Chinese cars from the big makers is better than American cars. Perhaps their long term quality is worse, but that's unknowable. People will judge by reports of the quality in the first year of ownership. Chinese cars will also be helped by the use of purchased Western brands like MG and Volvo.
  - indemnity 2y ago
    My Tesla made in Shanghai is pretty well made. Compared to the same vehicle manufactured in the US, the general finishing and fitment is superior (based on people with access to vehicles made in both countries). I have no complaints, was in better shape on delivery day than my previous Audi, which had been through “detailing” (a.k.a swirled to hell by an unskilled operator).
- tim333 2y ago
  It depends on the brand. No name Chinese brand - quality probably terrible, Apple iPhone made in China quality good. Brands like BYD are probably quite good also. I used to ride a Chinese imitation "Yamaha" and something went wrong weekly but my Apple stuff is good.
- nothercastle 2y ago
AtlasBarfed 2y ago
150 wh/kg sodium ion batteries enable a cheap 200 mile city car that ice complexity can't hope to touch. It's a car that several billion people in urban cores will buy. Yeah it may be a glorified golf cart. I also think a sodium ion 50 mile all electric phev has a ten year platform cycle in the US market while charging infrastructure and solid state / sulfur techs get developed. The Chinese and other companies will probably partner with us market companies to get the cars in somehow, even with trump in office.

timewizard 2y ago

"Early models did not include a driver airbag, but later models such as the Mini EV Macaron include the feature as standard." You don't get what you don't pay for. Scary that's even an option.

tomrod 2y ago
When the median vehicle in the US is the size of a small commercial freight vehicle, absolutely. It's a vicious cycle driven entirely by gaps in CAFE standards and overcompensation for perceived personal flaws.
- timewizard 2y ago
  > When the median vehicle in the US is the size of a small commercial freight vehicle, absolutely. It's the mass that matters. Even smaller cars, and in particular EVs, are getting heavier even though they're not getting larger. The major contributor to this weight gain is, yep, safety systems. > It's a vicious cycle driven entirely by gaps in CAFE standards and overcompensation for perceived personal flaws. I don't think you're being entirely objective. 1/6 of all vehicle fatalities are actually pedestrians. 1/6 are motorcycles. 1/2 involve drugs or alcohol. 1/2 are single car accidents. There's a lot of contributors to roadway fatalities, like people who get flung out of the vehicle. That still happens more than it should.
- 1123581321 2y ago
  China is not a particularly safe country, going by road deaths. It would be foolish to think small cars make airbags unnecessary.
- whatevaa 2y ago
  What does this has to do with missing airbags? Airbags should have never been optional, car size not relevant.
Timshel 2y ago
Depends of it's usage. To drive around a city at 30km/h do you need an airbag ? In this context safety for the passerby probably become more important. Looking at statistics for road death in Paris for part of 2024: - 9 on foot - 1 on bike - 8 on motorbike - 1 in a car Edit: only dead driver I could find for Paris was fleing the police and end-up in a tree.
- AnonymousPlanet 2y ago
  That's the speed at which airbags are most effective. Or do you believe your airbag is going to do you much good at 120 km/h? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16210197/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16210197/
- bufferoverflow 2y ago
  Who drives at 18 mph around the city? I am yet to see a city like that. And even if you did, there are other drivers that can crash into you at much higher speeds.
bryanlarsen 2y ago
The Wuling Mini is essentially a golf cart. The true comparison is to cars like the $12,000 BYD Seagull, which is fully safety rated and tested for sale in Europe.

gitdowndirty 2y ago

Most of these EV companies in China are going bankrupt, selling each car at a loss. Recently, Ji Yum Auto, founded by Baidu and Neely, shut down last December. A live streamer was live streaming selling the car. Upon hearing the news, she was bawling and told the listener to not to check out the car https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYdm2K81bW0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYdm2K81bW0. As Chinese EV makers close, drivers of “smartphones on wheels” say software updates and maintenance are in jeopardy. https://restofworld.org/2024/ev-company-shutdowns-china/ https://restofworld.org/2024/ev-company-shutdowns-china/

bryanlarsen 2y ago
To put this in perspective, the number of car manufacturers in China has dropped from 300 to 150 in the past few years. Further consolidation is expected. So it's probably a good idea to buy from an EV company that is profitable. For example BYD has a gross profit margin of over 20%. That's approximately double the profitability of Western firms.
- bdangubic 2y ago
  yugo was also very profitable when it hit the US market with higher than 20% margins :)

wordofx 2y ago

There are a LOT of ev fires in China that get scrubbed from the internet and media in China. If you had Weibo you can see them almost daily. You get what you pay for. Cheap junk.

kristopolous 2y ago
The average new car price in the USA is $50,000 which is about as much as a house costs in japan.
- judge2020 2y ago
  Which part of Japan? I found this in Osaka, somewhat far from the city center, for roughly 336k usd https://realestate.japantoday.com/en/forsale/view/1127651 https://realestate.japantoday.com/en/forsale/view/1127651
mitthrowaway2 2y ago
This is no doubt true. But this could either be an inevitable result of corner-cutting, or simply mistakes caused by inexperience, design errors, and poorly dialed-in process parameters. It matters is because in the former case, the unit cost advantage disappears as the problem gets solved. In the latter case, it does not.
thfuran 2y ago
There's something like 170,000 car fires per year in the US. It's just one of those things that's bad and too common to really make the news except maybe locally.
- cscurmudgeon 2y ago
  Safety is also an issue https://www.repairerdrivennews.com/2024/10/30/byd-atto-3-receives-worst-euro-ncap-rating-mercedes-i5-best/ https://www.repairerdrivennews.com/2024/10/30/byd-atto-3-rec... > Mercedes’ i5 received the best score from Euro NCAP for driver-assistance functions, and BYD’s ATTO 3 receiving the worst score

glimshe 2y ago

I know China has a few great products nowadays but its reputation for low quality trash will take decades to change in the US, especially given geopolitical challenges. You can take risks with Temu gadgets but not cars where your loved ones will be riding. No amount of statistics will do given China's manufacturing history. I simply won't consider a Chinese car in the next 10 years irrespective of testimonials, articles, charts or price. If we want more EVs in the US, we need more competitive offerings from Korea, Europe, Japan and US itself.

bryanlarsen 2y ago
Both Japan and Korea had similar reputations and over came them quickly. Western consumers have noticed the pattern and will be much quicker to trust Chinese cars than they were to trust Japanese and Korean ones, assuming rightly or wrongly that the pattern applies. It helps that the initial product quality of Chinese cars from the big makers is better than American cars. Perhaps their long term quality is worse, but that's unknowable. People will judge by reports of the quality in the first year of ownership. Chinese cars will also be helped by the use of purchased Western brands like MG and Volvo.
- indemnity 2y ago
  My Tesla made in Shanghai is pretty well made. Compared to the same vehicle manufactured in the US, the general finishing and fitment is superior (based on people with access to vehicles made in both countries). I have no complaints, was in better shape on delivery day than my previous Audi, which had been through “detailing” (a.k.a swirled to hell by an unskilled operator).
tim333 2y ago
It depends on the brand. No name Chinese brand - quality probably terrible, Apple iPhone made in China quality good. Brands like BYD are probably quite good also. I used to ride a Chinese imitation "Yamaha" and something went wrong weekly but my Apple stuff is good.
nothercastle 2y ago

AtlasBarfed 2y ago

150 wh/kg sodium ion batteries enable a cheap 200 mile city car that ice complexity can't hope to touch. It's a car that several billion people in urban cores will buy. Yeah it may be a glorified golf cart. I also think a sodium ion 50 mile all electric phev has a ten year platform cycle in the US market while charging infrastructure and solid state / sulfur techs get developed. The Chinese and other companies will probably partner with us market companies to get the cars in somehow, even with trump in office.