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Starlink is significantly more resistant to graft than terrestrial service. For the most part SpaceX is playing nice with regulators, but if Zimbabwe's governm

Starlink is significantly more resistant to graft than terrestrial service. For the most part SpaceX is playing nice with regulators, but if Zimbabwe's government tried to extort Starlink users, SpaceX could just open up service and Zimbabwe could do absolutely nothing to stop them.

cactusplant7374 2y ago
Wouldn't that be considered a form of dumping if they offered it for free?
- bpodgursky 2y ago
  I didn't say free, they'd just allow signups and ignore local restrictions.
  - jazzyjackson 2y ago
    How will they collect payment without an in-country business entity?
    - immibis 2y ago
      Dogecoin.
    - inemesitaffia 2y ago
      Same way Russians pay for Steam
    - bpodgursky 2y ago
      This happens all the time for many many businesses. Do you think all software vendors, small businesses that ship products have an in-country business entity? They just take online payments.
      - jazzyjackson 2y ago
        Most software vendors do not make themselves a target, they rely on the cooperation of banks in-country to process payments.
voakbasda 2y ago
Sure they could. They could make it illegal to possess Starklink equipment within their borders, in the name of “national security” or whatnot.
- bpodgursky 2y ago
  Starlink can talk direct to cell phones.
  - gruez 2y ago
    Those work far worse (bandwidth) than the dedicated terminals.
  - NoahKAndrews 2y ago
    Only for extremely low-bandwidth service, good for texting and such.
    - lukan 2y ago
      That would be enough to get that information, totalitarian governments don't want you to get. So expect regulations regarding those smartphones soon. And be aware if you travel with a satellite capable device (india apparently also don't like them): https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/hiking-and-backpacking/india-garmin-inreach/ https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/hiking-and-b...
      - throwaway48476 2y ago
        There's no way to put the smartphone genie back in the bottle and there's no way to visually differentiate satelote capable phones. It's going to be easy to smuggle them across borders.
        lukan 2y ago
        Maybe, but would you currently like to go to india with a satellite capable device? And in the future I can imagine mandatory software that needs to be installed in many countries, to be able to do any buisness there. Not specifically against satellites - but for using the bus, paying the hotel, getting a appointment at the police, ... and that app would make sure, you only connect to authorized means of communication. The hard part will be preventing that shit to become universal.
jplrssn 2y ago
Isn't Starlink subject to frequency spectrum licensing in each country it operates in?
- anticensor 2y ago
  It's in the same band as regular satellite internet, so the licensing is already dealt with.
duxup 2y ago
Has Starlink as an org shown any interest in resisting local pressure to that extent? I'm asking, I don't know, but even when technically feasible there are lots of concerns with defying local governments, good and bad.
- inemesitaffia 2y ago
  Iran, Myanmar, Sudan (not even the US government or US Media wants them there), Cuba, Venezuela.
  - duxup 2y ago
    Somewhat isolated countries… might apply to some African nations.
gamblor956 2y ago
Zimbabwe could do absolutely nothing to stop them They could issue an order to local payment processors to block all payments to Starlink...like Brazil did. In this particular hypothetical, Zimbabwe would have more solid legal grounds for blocking payment than the Brazilian judge (TLDR: X didn't adhere to all of Brazil's regulations and refused to pay the resulting fines so a judge deemed Starlink a related company and blocked payments to Starlink until X complied.)
- cesarb 2y ago
  > (TLDR: X didn't adhere to all of Brazil's regulations and refused to pay the resulting fines so a judge deemed Starlink a related company and blocked payments to Starlink until X complied.) IIRC, the judge didn't block payments to Starlink; instead, the judge told the banks to take the value of the fines from the Starlink bank accounts.
  - gamblor956 2y ago
    Per Reuters, the judge blocked the financial accounts of Starlink, meaning that Brazilian companies were barred from conducting financial transactions with it. https://www.reuters.com/technology/brazil-judge-blocks-starlink-accounts-country-amid-x-spat-source-says-2024-08-29/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/brazil-judge-blocks-starl... https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2024/8/29/brazil-judge-blocks-starlink-accounts-as-x-suspension-deadline-looms https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2024/8/29/brazil-judge-blo...
bodhiandphysics 2y ago
It's a little more complicated than that. There are two international treaties at play here (that the US has ratified)... the Outer Space Treaty requires that countries regulate the actions in outer space of their citizens and companies, in compliance with the outer space treaty and other international treaties (cf. Article VI and Article III). The Convention of the International Telecommunications Union of 1997 (the last version the us has ratified) specifies that the US shall abide by the rules of the ITU, including in allocation of satellite spectrum (Article 6). The ITU allows countries to limit the use of spectrum in certain bands (including those used by starlink) within their borders. So Zimbabwe actually can ban starlink. And if it ignores Zimbabwe... well Zimbabwe will complain to the ITU, and the ITU to the US. The US would be under obligation to regulate Starlink... with the minor exception of its not clear that the US has any agency that can, at least under current law. Anyway, it would be a total mess if Elon did that (except in a country like Russia where the US wants him to do that)... and I have no idea what would happen.
- bilbo0s 2y ago
  No one would allow a business perceived to be US Owned to play games like that in Africa right now anyway. With the Chinese sitting right there ready to swoop in and help the affected nations problem solve. We’re not as dumb in the US as the rest of the world seems to think.
  - bodhiandphysics 2y ago
    The rest of the world only thinks the US is dumb because they rely upon us to make the kind of decisions that they don't want to have to make. It's easy to criticize without real skin in the game. I mean Trump is an idiot... but umm... Berlusconi?
immibis 2y ago
Note that Starlink requires a ground station near the users.
- wmf 2y ago
  Not since they turned on the lasers.
  - dzhiurgis 2y ago
    Thats still a massive compromise that only suits for low population density like in oceans.
- ghaff 2y ago
  How does that work when I get Starlink in the middle of the ocean as I have done?

cactusplant7374 2y ago

Wouldn't that be considered a form of dumping if they offered it for free?

bpodgursky 2y ago
I didn't say free, they'd just allow signups and ignore local restrictions.
- jazzyjackson 2y ago
  How will they collect payment without an in-country business entity?
  - immibis 2y ago
    Dogecoin.
  - inemesitaffia 2y ago
    Same way Russians pay for Steam
  - bpodgursky 2y ago
    This happens all the time for many many businesses. Do you think all software vendors, small businesses that ship products have an in-country business entity? They just take online payments.
    - jazzyjackson 2y ago
      Most software vendors do not make themselves a target, they rely on the cooperation of banks in-country to process payments.

voakbasda 2y ago

Sure they could. They could make it illegal to possess Starklink equipment within their borders, in the name of “national security” or whatnot.

bpodgursky 2y ago
Starlink can talk direct to cell phones.
- gruez 2y ago
  Those work far worse (bandwidth) than the dedicated terminals.
- NoahKAndrews 2y ago
  Only for extremely low-bandwidth service, good for texting and such.
  - lukan 2y ago
    That would be enough to get that information, totalitarian governments don't want you to get. So expect regulations regarding those smartphones soon. And be aware if you travel with a satellite capable device (india apparently also don't like them): https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/hiking-and-backpacking/india-garmin-inreach/ https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/hiking-and-b...
    - throwaway48476 2y ago
      There's no way to put the smartphone genie back in the bottle and there's no way to visually differentiate satelote capable phones. It's going to be easy to smuggle them across borders.
      - lukan 2y ago
        Maybe, but would you currently like to go to india with a satellite capable device? And in the future I can imagine mandatory software that needs to be installed in many countries, to be able to do any buisness there. Not specifically against satellites - but for using the bus, paying the hotel, getting a appointment at the police, ... and that app would make sure, you only connect to authorized means of communication. The hard part will be preventing that shit to become universal.

jplrssn 2y ago

Isn't Starlink subject to frequency spectrum licensing in each country it operates in?

anticensor 2y ago
It's in the same band as regular satellite internet, so the licensing is already dealt with.

duxup 2y ago

Has Starlink as an org shown any interest in resisting local pressure to that extent? I'm asking, I don't know, but even when technically feasible there are lots of concerns with defying local governments, good and bad.

inemesitaffia 2y ago
Iran, Myanmar, Sudan (not even the US government or US Media wants them there), Cuba, Venezuela.
- duxup 2y ago
  Somewhat isolated countries… might apply to some African nations.

gamblor956 2y ago

Zimbabwe could do absolutely nothing to stop them They could issue an order to local payment processors to block all payments to Starlink...like Brazil did. In this particular hypothetical, Zimbabwe would have more solid legal grounds for blocking payment than the Brazilian judge (TLDR: X didn't adhere to all of Brazil's regulations and refused to pay the resulting fines so a judge deemed Starlink a related company and blocked payments to Starlink until X complied.)

cesarb 2y ago
> (TLDR: X didn't adhere to all of Brazil's regulations and refused to pay the resulting fines so a judge deemed Starlink a related company and blocked payments to Starlink until X complied.) IIRC, the judge didn't block payments to Starlink; instead, the judge told the banks to take the value of the fines from the Starlink bank accounts.
- gamblor956 2y ago
  Per Reuters, the judge blocked the financial accounts of Starlink, meaning that Brazilian companies were barred from conducting financial transactions with it. https://www.reuters.com/technology/brazil-judge-blocks-starlink-accounts-country-amid-x-spat-source-says-2024-08-29/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/brazil-judge-blocks-starl... https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2024/8/29/brazil-judge-blocks-starlink-accounts-as-x-suspension-deadline-looms https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2024/8/29/brazil-judge-blo...

bodhiandphysics 2y ago

It's a little more complicated than that. There are two international treaties at play here (that the US has ratified)... the Outer Space Treaty requires that countries regulate the actions in outer space of their citizens and companies, in compliance with the outer space treaty and other international treaties (cf. Article VI and Article III). The Convention of the International Telecommunications Union of 1997 (the last version the us has ratified) specifies that the US shall abide by the rules of the ITU, including in allocation of satellite spectrum (Article 6). The ITU allows countries to limit the use of spectrum in certain bands (including those used by starlink) within their borders. So Zimbabwe actually can ban starlink. And if it ignores Zimbabwe... well Zimbabwe will complain to the ITU, and the ITU to the US. The US would be under obligation to regulate Starlink... with the minor exception of its not clear that the US has any agency that can, at least under current law. Anyway, it would be a total mess if Elon did that (except in a country like Russia where the US wants him to do that)... and I have no idea what would happen.

bilbo0s 2y ago
No one would allow a business perceived to be US Owned to play games like that in Africa right now anyway. With the Chinese sitting right there ready to swoop in and help the affected nations problem solve. We’re not as dumb in the US as the rest of the world seems to think.
- bodhiandphysics 2y ago
  The rest of the world only thinks the US is dumb because they rely upon us to make the kind of decisions that they don't want to have to make. It's easy to criticize without real skin in the game. I mean Trump is an idiot... but umm... Berlusconi?

immibis 2y ago

Note that Starlink requires a ground station near the users.

wmf 2y ago
Not since they turned on the lasers.
- dzhiurgis 2y ago
  Thats still a massive compromise that only suits for low population density like in oceans.
ghaff 2y ago
How does that work when I get Starlink in the middle of the ocean as I have done?