4 ms·

A meaningless assertion? We've all been human and shared some values and ideals, even crafts and rituals. That's culture, for sure. But we've always had clearl

A meaningless assertion? We've all been human and shared some values and ideals, even crafts and rituals. That's culture, for sure. But we've always had clearly distinguishable systems, and seen as a whole then cultures have been separate and unique.

dartos 2y ago
It just depends when you want to draw the line of “this is beginning of a new culture”
- jimkleiber 2y ago
  Exactly. National culture, family culture, regional culture, gender culture, etc etc, so many ways to group behaviors of humans into categories and forget that within every category, there are so many differences, and across categories there can be so many similarities.
- SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
  I don't think you have any real choice but to draw it where the members of each culture think it belongs. You can, I suppose, bite the bullet and say that policing the lines between cultures is fundamentally illegitimate. But even people like the author who talk a good game about opposing "racialist worldviews" are usually not willing to go that far. Many cultures across the world - Frisians, Sami, Inuit, etc. - depend on that policing to survive and would quickly be assimilated and cease to exist if they decided it was wrong.
  - jimkleiber 2y ago
    I think there's a powerful point there: fear of assimilation. Many groups seem to fight very hard to keep their culture pure, or at least to maintain the appearance of it. Afraid to lose valued cultural practices. But then is it a wonder why we have division in the world? There is a book that came out about castes (I saw the movie) and the first principle to maintaining a caste system was endogamy: only allowed to fall in love with people within one's group. So if we can't love people outside our group, then well, we have division. I'd argue it leads to self-hatred, as we naturally love and to fight against it causes us to fight against ourselves, but that's a much deeper conversation.
    - graemep 2y ago
      As a member of an ethnic group that has almost disappeared through assimilation, I regret the loss of culture (much as not even reached my generation) but had no wish to marry within the group. I just want to pass on a few good things (like the bits I am familiar with of our cuisine).
      - jimkleiber 2y ago
        I appreciate you sharing your story. I wonder how much, in assimilation, artifacts from other cultures remain, or fuse, with artifacts of the "main" culture or whatever we want to call it. In other words, do the things from our culture disappear, or just appear to change shape but maintain many of the same structural elements? What comes to mind are Greek gods with Roman names, or possibly the Easter bunny coming from an ancient pagan festival called Eostre [0]. [0]: https://www.thefield.co.uk/country-house/easter-eostre-24035 https://www.thefield.co.uk/country-house/easter-eostre-24035
mmooss 2y ago
> we've always had clearly distinguishable systems What makes you say that? My impression is that people perceive it as they typically perceive categories and reality - they think it's simple. When you actually look at it, it's a mess. Culture is very complex, so it is even more of a mess. Culture also changes constantly, so what you define today is different tomorrow. > cultures have been separate and unique That does not at all match what I know or experience. I suppose theoretically, a small isolated village might be separate and unique.

dartos 2y ago

It just depends when you want to draw the line of “this is beginning of a new culture”

jimkleiber 2y ago
Exactly. National culture, family culture, regional culture, gender culture, etc etc, so many ways to group behaviors of humans into categories and forget that within every category, there are so many differences, and across categories there can be so many similarities.
SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
I don't think you have any real choice but to draw it where the members of each culture think it belongs. You can, I suppose, bite the bullet and say that policing the lines between cultures is fundamentally illegitimate. But even people like the author who talk a good game about opposing "racialist worldviews" are usually not willing to go that far. Many cultures across the world - Frisians, Sami, Inuit, etc. - depend on that policing to survive and would quickly be assimilated and cease to exist if they decided it was wrong.
- jimkleiber 2y ago
  I think there's a powerful point there: fear of assimilation. Many groups seem to fight very hard to keep their culture pure, or at least to maintain the appearance of it. Afraid to lose valued cultural practices. But then is it a wonder why we have division in the world? There is a book that came out about castes (I saw the movie) and the first principle to maintaining a caste system was endogamy: only allowed to fall in love with people within one's group. So if we can't love people outside our group, then well, we have division. I'd argue it leads to self-hatred, as we naturally love and to fight against it causes us to fight against ourselves, but that's a much deeper conversation.
  - graemep 2y ago
    As a member of an ethnic group that has almost disappeared through assimilation, I regret the loss of culture (much as not even reached my generation) but had no wish to marry within the group. I just want to pass on a few good things (like the bits I am familiar with of our cuisine).
    - jimkleiber 2y ago
      I appreciate you sharing your story. I wonder how much, in assimilation, artifacts from other cultures remain, or fuse, with artifacts of the "main" culture or whatever we want to call it. In other words, do the things from our culture disappear, or just appear to change shape but maintain many of the same structural elements? What comes to mind are Greek gods with Roman names, or possibly the Easter bunny coming from an ancient pagan festival called Eostre [0]. [0]: https://www.thefield.co.uk/country-house/easter-eostre-24035 https://www.thefield.co.uk/country-house/easter-eostre-24035

mmooss 2y ago

> we've always had clearly distinguishable systems What makes you say that? My impression is that people perceive it as they typically perceive categories and reality - they think it's simple. When you actually look at it, it's a mess. Culture is very complex, so it is even more of a mess. Culture also changes constantly, so what you define today is different tomorrow. > cultures have been separate and unique That does not at all match what I know or experience. I suppose theoretically, a small isolated village might be separate and unique.