7 ms·

World's largest pumped storage power plant fully operational in China

82 points by philipkglass 2y ago

jeffbee 2y ago
What was the old record holder? Bath County in the U.S. is nearly this large.
- ChuckMcM 2y ago
  This from the Bath County website : "Net generating capacity is 3,003-megawatts (6 units)." That is 1/1000th the capacity of the 3.6 Gigawatts that this Chinese facility can produce.
  - wewtyflakes 2y ago
    3000MW == 3GW
  - rhplus 2y ago
    From Wikipedia link above: Bath County: 3.0GW output, 24GWh capacity Fengning: 3.6GW output, 40GWh capacity
  - daedrdev 2y ago
    Check your unit conversion
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- philipkglass 2y ago
  There's a pretty good list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pumped-storage_hydroelectric_power_stations#List_of_plants_larger_than_1000_MW_capacity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pumped-storage_hydroel... This looks like the previous record holder (by stored energy, not power): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raccoon_Mountain_Pumped-Storage_Plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raccoon_Mountain_Pumped-Storag...
  - thelastgallon 2y ago
    Thanks for the link! Under construction is far more interesting. Out of the 118 under construction (>1000MW), 112 are in China, with 6 from the rest of the world. China is adding 157 GW of storage just from pumped storage.
ChuckMcM 2y ago
36GW hours of water storage is pretty amazing. Looking at how much Solar/Wind over capacity you would need to take advantage of that is an interesting exercise in itself. That said, from a "we're doing things to be 100% renewable and/or zero ghg" China has been making some strides that the rest of the world would do well to emulate or match.
- ttkari 2y ago
  China still generates approximately two thirds of it's electricity by burning fossil fuels so it still has a plenty of catching up to do. For example in my country power generation is already 94% carbon free.
  - __alexs 2y ago
    China generates more renewable energy than the next highest 5 countries combined. It's nonsensical to compare them to most other countries.
    - LAC-Tech 2y ago
      Do you know how fractions and percentages work?
      - __alexs 2y ago
        Do you know how scaling industrial processes works?
        LAC-Tech 2y ago
        Renewable electricity hydro-electric dams don't really work like that. You can't "scale out", because you're limited by waterflow, reservoir area etc. There's a natural ceiling.
        __alexs 2y ago
louwrentius 2y ago
These are huge investments but I believe countries that heavily invest in renewables are going to get ahead of those who don’t due to lower energy costs. And if countries refuse to reduce their carbon footprint, we may start to put some tariffs on your goods and services.
fvdessen 2y ago
Those are incredible but unfortunately you need the right topology to build them. I don't know about the US but I doubt there's much more of those to be built in Europe.
- __alexs 2y ago
  Maybe if we bulldozed some ski resorts.
- manquer 2y ago
  Many normal hydroelectric dams can be converted, they already have half the setup . As long as there is a lower reservoir or space for one , any hydroelectric dam could converted to pumped storage without additional ecological impact .
- masklinn 2y ago
  I don't think the US has any either, there's a reason they built Tom Sauk (not sure there's any other pretty much entirely artificial PHS). There might be a few locations in the Alps e.g. existing barrages which could be retrofitted into PHS in Switzerland and Austria (KOPS II was commissioned in 2008).
- bgnn 2y ago
  Sweden snd Norway, maybe? Turkey has a lot of potential sites.
- imp0cat 2y ago
  There are some viable places in Europe, but the biggest problem seems to be actually getting all the permits required to build them. One can't just chop the top of a mountain nowadays. China does not seem to have this problem.
- chris_va 2y ago
  https://maps.nrel.gov/psh https://maps.nrel.gov/psh (us) Europe has Norway for storage, but limited renewable potential compared to the US or China (not nothing, offshore wind is a thing, but the available land area for solar is very limited).
ortusdux 2y ago
One of my favorite theoretical energy storage methods is manmade island dams. The idea is to build a circular dyke in the ocean, and then use the encapsulated sea as pumped hydro storage. It would be paired with a windfarm, floating solar, and whatever other power generating methods would easily co-locate. Unsurprisingly, the Dutch seem to have put a lot of thought into it: https://deingenieur.nl/artikelen/lievense-de-man-van-het-opslagbekken https://deingenieur.nl/artikelen/lievense-de-man-van-het-ops...
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  Seems like storage potential would suffer from a lack of height and long dam length.
- rajnathani 2y ago
  It sounds more like tidal energy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_power
idiotsecant 2y ago
China is absolutely eating the wests lunch when it comes to infrastructure. We need to wake up or we'll find ourselves at a disadvantage that would take generations to come back from.
- bgnn 2y ago
  I recently discovered that their energy transition policy goes back to 10th 5 year plan (2001-2005). I think though a lit of focus was then transitioning from coal to natural gas and nuclear, which isn't surprising. What is interesting is they odentified PV and wind energy as key technologies for future to de-caebonize. 5 years later, with 11th 5 year plan they have made reducing energy intensity and emissions by 20% a binding target, which was binding for everyone including the higher ups and lowest level of government employees. This made a lot of funds availabile for these projects and R&D. They went beyond the target. Currently they have a massive edge to the West, because contemporary capitalism focuses heavily on quarterly earnings rather than lobger term goals. So there are two systems competing and optimizing for different metrics.
  - hagbard_c 2y ago
    > Currently they have a massive edge to the West, because contemporary capitalism focuses heavily on quarterly earnings rather than lobger term goals You're forgetting about the environmental impact studies and the resulting bans to build anything in areas which are deemed to be important habitats. About the miles of red tape and stacks of regulations which need to be followed to build anything in 'the west'. Having an autocratic government which can just dictate whatever they want does help to get things going but in the west such a government style is only ever seen in times of war and even then they do not have as much authority as the CCP has in China. This is unrelated to the economic system - a capitalist dictatorship could achieve the same by pushing through its demands - so it does not make sense to blame it on 'capitalism'. It is the autocracy which makes it possible.
    - chii 2y ago
      > It is the autocracy which makes it possible. which is the whole point of the ideology of the CCP - that autocratic gov't, rather than democracy, is a better governing structure. The idea is not even new - it stems from ancient china, from the days of the emperors. That their rule is mandated by heaven, and that they know what's best for the country.
divbzero 2y ago
> Fengning’s advanced design includes an upper reservoir with a capacity of 45.04 million cubic meters and a lower reservoir holding 71.56 million cubic meters. A cubic meter of water weighs a tonne. So that’s literally tonnes and tonnes of water.
nforgerit 2y ago
I'd suggest browsing through ourworldindata.org's energy section. It is an absolutely astonishing accomplishment what China has built with slashing PV and battery prices as well as production capacities in recent years. Dynamics are such that there's hope they'll reach peak CO2 emissions in the upcoming few years, way ahead of their own plans. I'm saying that as a German whose 20y old idea (be a global supplier for renewable tech) they copied and executed like 10x better.
- bgnn 2y ago
  China had 3 big goals for last 20+ years or so in their 5 year economic plans: getting rod of fossil fuel dependency, becoming a knowledge economy, increasing the share of service economy. Every government organization is working on to realize these. All the subsidies for EVs are there because they don't want to rely on gas and coal since it's not sustainable. Germany was lobbying to EU on the benefits of "clean diesel" till recently.
  - PicassoCTs 2y ago
    And they missed all of them. And their PR pieces got peddled in the west by journalists, to keep the remainders of the "green" revolution going in the west in increments, by generating virtual progress of a imaginary opposition. Goto keep up with the Johnsons halfway around the world, whos house may or may not be cardboard. Well meaning, but in the end, even well meaning lies destroy your megaphone.
    - bgnn 2y ago
      I don't know what journalista say, I don't read newspapers. My source on thus is international institutions like IEA and World Bank. The energy transition is going good according to the World Bank https://documents.worldbank.org/en/publication/documents-reports/documentdetail/162841638508597254/renewable-energy-development-in-china-a-40-year-china-world-bank-partnership https://documents.worldbank.org/en/publication/documents-rep...
      - 2y ago
Aloisius 2y ago
Did they really install mood lighting above their generators? It seems like it from the picture of their turbine hall.
applied_heat 2y ago
What is extremely novel about this facility is the variable speed pump turbines and dc grid connection for the plant. Hydro plants usually (exclusively other than this one?) use synchronous machines that operate at a fixed speed. Variable speed hydro turbines is quite cutting edge for an old field where change occurs very slowly and carefully

82 points by philipkglass 2y ago

jeffbee 2y ago

What was the old record holder? Bath County in the U.S. is nearly this large.

ChuckMcM 2y ago
This from the Bath County website : "Net generating capacity is 3,003-megawatts (6 units)." That is 1/1000th the capacity of the 3.6 Gigawatts that this Chinese facility can produce.
- wewtyflakes 2y ago
  3000MW == 3GW
- rhplus 2y ago
  From Wikipedia link above: Bath County: 3.0GW output, 24GWh capacity Fengning: 3.6GW output, 40GWh capacity
- daedrdev 2y ago
  Check your unit conversion
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
philipkglass 2y ago
There's a pretty good list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pumped-storage_hydroelectric_power_stations#List_of_plants_larger_than_1000_MW_capacity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pumped-storage_hydroel... This looks like the previous record holder (by stored energy, not power): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raccoon_Mountain_Pumped-Storage_Plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raccoon_Mountain_Pumped-Storag...
- thelastgallon 2y ago
  Thanks for the link! Under construction is far more interesting. Out of the 118 under construction (>1000MW), 112 are in China, with 6 from the rest of the world. China is adding 157 GW of storage just from pumped storage.

ChuckMcM 2y ago

36GW hours of water storage is pretty amazing. Looking at how much Solar/Wind over capacity you would need to take advantage of that is an interesting exercise in itself. That said, from a "we're doing things to be 100% renewable and/or zero ghg" China has been making some strides that the rest of the world would do well to emulate or match.

ttkari 2y ago
China still generates approximately two thirds of it's electricity by burning fossil fuels so it still has a plenty of catching up to do. For example in my country power generation is already 94% carbon free.
- __alexs 2y ago
  China generates more renewable energy than the next highest 5 countries combined. It's nonsensical to compare them to most other countries.
  - LAC-Tech 2y ago
    Do you know how fractions and percentages work?
    - __alexs 2y ago
      Do you know how scaling industrial processes works?
      - LAC-Tech 2y ago
        Renewable electricity hydro-electric dams don't really work like that. You can't "scale out", because you're limited by waterflow, reservoir area etc. There's a natural ceiling.
        __alexs 2y ago

louwrentius 2y ago

These are huge investments but I believe countries that heavily invest in renewables are going to get ahead of those who don’t due to lower energy costs. And if countries refuse to reduce their carbon footprint, we may start to put some tariffs on your goods and services.

fvdessen 2y ago

Those are incredible but unfortunately you need the right topology to build them. I don't know about the US but I doubt there's much more of those to be built in Europe.

__alexs 2y ago
Maybe if we bulldozed some ski resorts.
manquer 2y ago
Many normal hydroelectric dams can be converted, they already have half the setup . As long as there is a lower reservoir or space for one , any hydroelectric dam could converted to pumped storage without additional ecological impact .
masklinn 2y ago
I don't think the US has any either, there's a reason they built Tom Sauk (not sure there's any other pretty much entirely artificial PHS). There might be a few locations in the Alps e.g. existing barrages which could be retrofitted into PHS in Switzerland and Austria (KOPS II was commissioned in 2008).
bgnn 2y ago
Sweden snd Norway, maybe? Turkey has a lot of potential sites.
imp0cat 2y ago
There are some viable places in Europe, but the biggest problem seems to be actually getting all the permits required to build them. One can't just chop the top of a mountain nowadays. China does not seem to have this problem.
chris_va 2y ago
https://maps.nrel.gov/psh https://maps.nrel.gov/psh (us) Europe has Norway for storage, but limited renewable potential compared to the US or China (not nothing, offshore wind is a thing, but the available land area for solar is very limited).

ortusdux 2y ago

One of my favorite theoretical energy storage methods is manmade island dams. The idea is to build a circular dyke in the ocean, and then use the encapsulated sea as pumped hydro storage. It would be paired with a windfarm, floating solar, and whatever other power generating methods would easily co-locate. Unsurprisingly, the Dutch seem to have put a lot of thought into it: https://deingenieur.nl/artikelen/lievense-de-man-van-het-opslagbekken https://deingenieur.nl/artikelen/lievense-de-man-van-het-ops...

s1artibartfast 2y ago
Seems like storage potential would suffer from a lack of height and long dam length.
rajnathani 2y ago
It sounds more like tidal energy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_power

idiotsecant 2y ago

China is absolutely eating the wests lunch when it comes to infrastructure. We need to wake up or we'll find ourselves at a disadvantage that would take generations to come back from.

bgnn 2y ago
I recently discovered that their energy transition policy goes back to 10th 5 year plan (2001-2005). I think though a lit of focus was then transitioning from coal to natural gas and nuclear, which isn't surprising. What is interesting is they odentified PV and wind energy as key technologies for future to de-caebonize. 5 years later, with 11th 5 year plan they have made reducing energy intensity and emissions by 20% a binding target, which was binding for everyone including the higher ups and lowest level of government employees. This made a lot of funds availabile for these projects and R&D. They went beyond the target. Currently they have a massive edge to the West, because contemporary capitalism focuses heavily on quarterly earnings rather than lobger term goals. So there are two systems competing and optimizing for different metrics.
- hagbard_c 2y ago
  > Currently they have a massive edge to the West, because contemporary capitalism focuses heavily on quarterly earnings rather than lobger term goals You're forgetting about the environmental impact studies and the resulting bans to build anything in areas which are deemed to be important habitats. About the miles of red tape and stacks of regulations which need to be followed to build anything in 'the west'. Having an autocratic government which can just dictate whatever they want does help to get things going but in the west such a government style is only ever seen in times of war and even then they do not have as much authority as the CCP has in China. This is unrelated to the economic system - a capitalist dictatorship could achieve the same by pushing through its demands - so it does not make sense to blame it on 'capitalism'. It is the autocracy which makes it possible.
  - chii 2y ago
    > It is the autocracy which makes it possible. which is the whole point of the ideology of the CCP - that autocratic gov't, rather than democracy, is a better governing structure. The idea is not even new - it stems from ancient china, from the days of the emperors. That their rule is mandated by heaven, and that they know what's best for the country.

divbzero 2y ago

> Fengning’s advanced design includes an upper reservoir with a capacity of 45.04 million cubic meters and a lower reservoir holding 71.56 million cubic meters. A cubic meter of water weighs a tonne. So that’s literally tonnes and tonnes of water.

nforgerit 2y ago

I'd suggest browsing through ourworldindata.org's energy section. It is an absolutely astonishing accomplishment what China has built with slashing PV and battery prices as well as production capacities in recent years. Dynamics are such that there's hope they'll reach peak CO2 emissions in the upcoming few years, way ahead of their own plans. I'm saying that as a German whose 20y old idea (be a global supplier for renewable tech) they copied and executed like 10x better.

bgnn 2y ago
China had 3 big goals for last 20+ years or so in their 5 year economic plans: getting rod of fossil fuel dependency, becoming a knowledge economy, increasing the share of service economy. Every government organization is working on to realize these. All the subsidies for EVs are there because they don't want to rely on gas and coal since it's not sustainable. Germany was lobbying to EU on the benefits of "clean diesel" till recently.
- PicassoCTs 2y ago
  And they missed all of them. And their PR pieces got peddled in the west by journalists, to keep the remainders of the "green" revolution going in the west in increments, by generating virtual progress of a imaginary opposition. Goto keep up with the Johnsons halfway around the world, whos house may or may not be cardboard. Well meaning, but in the end, even well meaning lies destroy your megaphone.
  - bgnn 2y ago
    I don't know what journalista say, I don't read newspapers. My source on thus is international institutions like IEA and World Bank. The energy transition is going good according to the World Bank https://documents.worldbank.org/en/publication/documents-reports/documentdetail/162841638508597254/renewable-energy-development-in-china-a-40-year-china-world-bank-partnership https://documents.worldbank.org/en/publication/documents-rep...
    - 2y ago

Aloisius 2y ago

Did they really install mood lighting above their generators? It seems like it from the picture of their turbine hall.

applied_heat 2y ago

What is extremely novel about this facility is the variable speed pump turbines and dc grid connection for the plant. Hydro plants usually (exclusively other than this one?) use synchronous machines that operate at a fixed speed. Variable speed hydro turbines is quite cutting edge for an old field where change occurs very slowly and carefully