3 ms·

Look at some more nations, and more history. If the people really believe in a system of government, then you don't need any words-on-paper constitutions or la

Look at some more nations, and more history. If the people really believe in a system of government, then you don't need any words-on-paper constitutions or laws or stuff. If the people have really lost faith in the system (generally because it repeatedly failed to meet their basic needs), then all the pieces of paper and fancy-looking buildings and robed officials in the world don't count for shit.

bamboozled 2y ago
What I think is concerning is the amount of Americans that don't trust government and think most government institutions should be smashed. Hitler was a really smart guy, young and energetic at this time, evil yes, but he definitely had plans, not sure the USA has one right now though...
- dspillett 2y ago
  > not sure the USA has one right now though... I'm sure there is one. It is just that the Zaphod-like (though devoid of his sense of style) two-headed mess that is President Shart and Rabid Lapdog Musk are doing a good job of being a distraction from the people with the plan.
- sitkack 2y ago
  Transform it into a proper banana republic owned by Oligarchs. Soon everyone will have dashcams and a bear in their back yard.
  - pjc50 2y ago
    The US is gradually acquiring traits of Latin American political failure. I suppose it's the natural outcome of US politics working against democracy on the rest of the continent.
    - sitkack 2y ago
      Everything that you can do to others, you can do to yourself. America is addicted to blowback.
- krapp 2y ago
  The plan is called Project 2025[0]. Trump has publicly disavowed at least parts of the plan but, Trump being Trump, also just happens to be appointing people who just happen to want to implement it[1,2]. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025 [1]https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jan/08/trump-project-2025 https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jan/08/trump-projec... [2]https://www.afge.org/article/new-trump-administration-packed-with-project-2025-architects/ https://www.afge.org/article/new-trump-administration-packed...
  - bamboozled 2y ago
    Is that his plan though? I've heard he is basically just running with it but didn't author it or even really understand it. I'd be surprised if he actually cares about it honestly. I find it hard to imagine Hitler behaving in the same way. I'm sure he took advise, but yeah, seemed very hands on and strategic and idealistic. Edit: Just reading the section there on nuclear proliferation, man, we're not going to make it are we? Right wing people think Biden was going to start WW3, I can't thin k of a better way to provoke even our allies than going through with that plan.
    - krapp 2y ago
      It is certainly the openly espoused plan of numerous Republicans, in every branch of government. Whether or not it's his plan, it does seem to be the plan, and for whatever reason they all seem to believe Trump is reading from the same playbook. I think the lesson that gets lost with Hitler analogies is that authoritarianism, when it arises, does so in a unique cultural context. I can see Trump kind of being a figurehead and patsy for the more organized and directed forces around him, depending on how well he can be manipulated. History doesn't have to repeat but it can rhyme. It's like this nonsense with Greenland and Canada. It should be too ridiculous to take seriously, and yeah it probably won't come to anything, because Trump and Musk talk shit all the time, but then we live in a time where the most potent political force in the Western world started as a 4chan shitpost and Elon Musk is basically co-President who knows what the parameters of reality even are anymore?
MrBuddyCasino 2y ago
This is true at a certain level of prosperity and bourgeois mentality. I also find it surprising how long a regime can cling to power that is hated by its population, eg North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba, and even the Soviet Union. What brought the Soviet Union down was that they couldn't afford food anymore due to declining oil revenue [0], not a domestic revolution. [0] "The Soviet Collapse: Grain and Oil By Yegor Gaidar" https://tamilnation.org/intframe/070419collapse_of_soviet_union.pdf https://tamilnation.org/intframe/070419collapse_of_soviet_un...
llamaimperative 2y ago
Can you provide some examples for either scenario? I don’t understand this argument at all.
- pjc50 2y ago
  If you want recent examples, you have Euromaidan (popular revolution which succeeded once the government lost sympathy for shooting people in the street) versus South Korea, where public belief in the system was strong enough to force the failure of a palace coup that might have been legal on paper (the provisions for suspending the constitution of Korea).
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- bell-cot 2y ago
  The ur-example is probably Ancient Rome. Their Republic lasted for centuries, and the Roman Senate famously had zero formal power. When the Senators were doing their jobs well, it was held in extremely high regard, and Rome did (via some thin "who was elected to do that this year?" details) as its Senate advised. When not - well, things eventually went downhill. And "Republic" was replaced by dictators-for-life, who got the title "Caesar". During the downhill slide, the Romans tried to codify loads of their previously unwritten rules - about how gov't officials were chosen, what they were allowed to do, etc. That really didn't help.
hkpack 2y ago
> generally because it repeatedly failed to meet their basic needs I think it is no longer relevant. How much of the needs are met is decided by the social media now. I personally know people making life altering decisions based on the fake news. Their world is detached from the reality in such a way, that they don't believe their own eyes. People now see a world mostly thought the screen of their phone.
- bell-cot 2y ago
  >> failed to meet their basic needs > I think that is no longer relevant. Try reading some of the NYT's long-running coverage, about how life has gone down, down, downhill for "the other half" of America, over the past half-ish century. Or read some of the backstory on the 1994 Contract with American/Republican Revolution, and think about why huge numbers American voters - most of whom had historically voted democratic - were so unhappy that they switched to the Republicans. Or check out some of the US Govt's stuff on that - say, https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/republicans/2019/9/long-term-trends-in-deaths-of-despair https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/republicans/2019... (2019) Things were going to hell, for a whole lotta Americans, long before there were smart phones.
  - trilbyglens 2y ago
    No reading needed, just go there. 100% chance you can drive 30 minutes from wherever you live to find a neighborhood that used to be nice that is now in shambles. Go a bit further and you enter into ghost towns and places where the sole infrastructure for life is a single Walmart. Trailers with tires on the roof, cars with parts missing. It's all around you if you just pay attention to it.
  - hkpack 2y ago
    It is funny because I agree with you, a lot of things got worse. My point is that it is the natural consequence of people losing the ability to agree on what is actually going on. When you lose grip on reality, you lose the ability to make any meaningful change.

bamboozled 2y ago

What I think is concerning is the amount of Americans that don't trust government and think most government institutions should be smashed. Hitler was a really smart guy, young and energetic at this time, evil yes, but he definitely had plans, not sure the USA has one right now though...

dspillett 2y ago
> not sure the USA has one right now though... I'm sure there is one. It is just that the Zaphod-like (though devoid of his sense of style) two-headed mess that is President Shart and Rabid Lapdog Musk are doing a good job of being a distraction from the people with the plan.
sitkack 2y ago
Transform it into a proper banana republic owned by Oligarchs. Soon everyone will have dashcams and a bear in their back yard.
- pjc50 2y ago
  The US is gradually acquiring traits of Latin American political failure. I suppose it's the natural outcome of US politics working against democracy on the rest of the continent.
  - sitkack 2y ago
    Everything that you can do to others, you can do to yourself. America is addicted to blowback.
krapp 2y ago
The plan is called Project 2025[0]. Trump has publicly disavowed at least parts of the plan but, Trump being Trump, also just happens to be appointing people who just happen to want to implement it[1,2]. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025 [1]https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jan/08/trump-project-2025 https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jan/08/trump-projec... [2]https://www.afge.org/article/new-trump-administration-packed-with-project-2025-architects/ https://www.afge.org/article/new-trump-administration-packed...
- bamboozled 2y ago
  Is that his plan though? I've heard he is basically just running with it but didn't author it or even really understand it. I'd be surprised if he actually cares about it honestly. I find it hard to imagine Hitler behaving in the same way. I'm sure he took advise, but yeah, seemed very hands on and strategic and idealistic. Edit: Just reading the section there on nuclear proliferation, man, we're not going to make it are we? Right wing people think Biden was going to start WW3, I can't thin k of a better way to provoke even our allies than going through with that plan.
  - krapp 2y ago
    It is certainly the openly espoused plan of numerous Republicans, in every branch of government. Whether or not it's his plan, it does seem to be the plan, and for whatever reason they all seem to believe Trump is reading from the same playbook. I think the lesson that gets lost with Hitler analogies is that authoritarianism, when it arises, does so in a unique cultural context. I can see Trump kind of being a figurehead and patsy for the more organized and directed forces around him, depending on how well he can be manipulated. History doesn't have to repeat but it can rhyme. It's like this nonsense with Greenland and Canada. It should be too ridiculous to take seriously, and yeah it probably won't come to anything, because Trump and Musk talk shit all the time, but then we live in a time where the most potent political force in the Western world started as a 4chan shitpost and Elon Musk is basically co-President who knows what the parameters of reality even are anymore?

MrBuddyCasino 2y ago

This is true at a certain level of prosperity and bourgeois mentality. I also find it surprising how long a regime can cling to power that is hated by its population, eg North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba, and even the Soviet Union. What brought the Soviet Union down was that they couldn't afford food anymore due to declining oil revenue [0], not a domestic revolution. [0] "The Soviet Collapse: Grain and Oil By Yegor Gaidar" https://tamilnation.org/intframe/070419collapse_of_soviet_union.pdf https://tamilnation.org/intframe/070419collapse_of_soviet_un...

llamaimperative 2y ago

Can you provide some examples for either scenario? I don’t understand this argument at all.

pjc50 2y ago
If you want recent examples, you have Euromaidan (popular revolution which succeeded once the government lost sympathy for shooting people in the street) versus South Korea, where public belief in the system was strong enough to force the failure of a palace coup that might have been legal on paper (the provisions for suspending the constitution of Korea).
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
bell-cot 2y ago
The ur-example is probably Ancient Rome. Their Republic lasted for centuries, and the Roman Senate famously had zero formal power. When the Senators were doing their jobs well, it was held in extremely high regard, and Rome did (via some thin "who was elected to do that this year?" details) as its Senate advised. When not - well, things eventually went downhill. And "Republic" was replaced by dictators-for-life, who got the title "Caesar". During the downhill slide, the Romans tried to codify loads of their previously unwritten rules - about how gov't officials were chosen, what they were allowed to do, etc. That really didn't help.

hkpack 2y ago

> generally because it repeatedly failed to meet their basic needs I think it is no longer relevant. How much of the needs are met is decided by the social media now. I personally know people making life altering decisions based on the fake news. Their world is detached from the reality in such a way, that they don't believe their own eyes. People now see a world mostly thought the screen of their phone.

bell-cot 2y ago
>> failed to meet their basic needs > I think that is no longer relevant. Try reading some of the NYT's long-running coverage, about how life has gone down, down, downhill for "the other half" of America, over the past half-ish century. Or read some of the backstory on the 1994 Contract with American/Republican Revolution, and think about why huge numbers American voters - most of whom had historically voted democratic - were so unhappy that they switched to the Republicans. Or check out some of the US Govt's stuff on that - say, https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/republicans/2019/9/long-term-trends-in-deaths-of-despair https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/republicans/2019... (2019) Things were going to hell, for a whole lotta Americans, long before there were smart phones.
- trilbyglens 2y ago
  No reading needed, just go there. 100% chance you can drive 30 minutes from wherever you live to find a neighborhood that used to be nice that is now in shambles. Go a bit further and you enter into ghost towns and places where the sole infrastructure for life is a single Walmart. Trailers with tires on the roof, cars with parts missing. It's all around you if you just pay attention to it.
- hkpack 2y ago
  It is funny because I agree with you, a lot of things got worse. My point is that it is the natural consequence of people losing the ability to agree on what is actually going on. When you lose grip on reality, you lose the ability to make any meaningful change.