5 ms·

This has video-games-cause-violence vibes. People don't become mass murderers because they read a comment on the internet.

harry8 2y ago
Nope, wrong cause direction. Do people never become mass killers to get attention? Does giving mass killers more attention, making them famous affect anything, maybe encourage more? "No" is a reasonable response if you can support it.
- _Algernon_ 2y ago
  You know what the actual biggest difference between countries with large amounts of mass killings and those that don't is? Gun control. Luigi Mangione's comments on stack overflow don't even register in terms of violence caused. These kinds of removals are simply attempts at information control by the elite, and -- assuming you're not part of the 1% -- you're playing straight into their hand. "The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles." - Karl Marx
  - harry8 2y ago
    > Luigi Mangione's comments on stack overflow don't even register in terms of violence caused. This is completely and totally true. Totally irrelevant in terms of what policy /should/ be and one of the reasons to move it away from one example because what fits one example may not be generally applicable. I have not and do not stick up for S.O. Marx, yeah nah I don't think he's helpful here or indeed anywhere.
    - _Algernon_ 2y ago
      Marx is incredibly helpful in most things as long as you realize that he managed to identify the right problem (which I referenced by the quote), not necessarily the solution; and that his proposed solutions have never been properly tested, and that his ideas for the solution to the problem were -- just like Nietzsche's ideas -- bastardized by terrible people for their own gain. You don't have to be a communist to realize that Marx was instrumental in giving us the labor movement, including unions which most people who haven't been indoctrinated over generations with red scare tactics will realize where good things and important mechanisms against overreach by the powerful.
  - throwaway48476 2y ago
    Mexico has virtually 0 legaly owned firearms. Total gun control. Yet they have large amounts of mass murders.
    - _Algernon_ 2y ago
      Guns being illegal without being enforced isn't gun control. That much should be obvious.
      - throwaway48476 2y ago
        It is enforced. No one legally has guns.
        oneeyedpigeon 2y ago
        That's not the point. If everyone has an illegal gun, that's a law not being enforced and mass murder is all-but guaranteed.
        lazide 2y ago
        How does the last part follow from any of the previous parts?
        throwaway48476 2y ago
        Only the cartels have guns, it's what enables them to use them against those who do not and it is why they can commit such atrocities unimpeded.
        _Algernon_ 2y ago
        Legality and enforcement are orthogonal concepts. They should align, but sometimes they don't and you get an unenforced law. Obviously, less people's behavior will be changed if there are no consequences to doing the illegal thing. Gun control implies the need for enforcement, because you need to act on something in some way to control it. A piece of paper with some words on it (which is what an unenforced law is) can't act on people by itself.
dpc050505 2y ago
Marc Lépine's manifesto (he walked into Montréal's Polytechnique and killed 14 women and shot several more, he was blaming them studying and feminism for his not getting accepted) is treated as gospel on incel forums. Many acts of incel/misogynist terrorism have been committed by people who frequented such forums. Ideology is not videogames and does have an impact on people's actions. You can look at the whole history of the 20th centuries' wars for another very obvious example.
- _Algernon_ 2y ago
  I don't need others to decide what ideology I need to be protected from for me. I'm much more concerned about the ideology of the people who think information control is justifiable. Others are responsible for their own actions. Don't impose information control on me because others do stupid shit.
  - Cumpiler69 2y ago
    >I'm much more concerned about the ideology of the people who think information control is justifiable. Indeed. That's only to justify blatant censorship. Reading books doesn't cause people to kill other people. If someone kills someone after reading a book, that person already had huge issues and was on the edge to kill already, and instead of a addressing the issue by investing more in helping those with mental illnesses, we take the dumb cheap and easy way out of blaming books, video games, forums, incels, toxic masculinity, etc. Everyone is quick to blame incels but nobody asks why do men become incels in the first place and how to prevent that by addressing the causes and not the effects. The truth is our current society has a disproportionate lack of safety nets and help available to males and male issues, when compared to females, hence why there's 10x the rate of suicides and homelessness for males vs females, and is also one of the reasons why men have statistically been going more conservative and right wing in the last decade or so. Yet nobody talks about this or wants to do anything to address this and just resorts to shaming men who draw attention to this as incels and "far right" and calls it a day. When society takes away young men's communities (previously it was the church) and purpose in life, their prospect of building a family, good job (men used to be able to support a family by bolting bumpers to Fords in a factory) and owning a home, and demonize them for the sins of their fathers (patriarchy and male Privilege) while depriving them of any help, it's no surprise they become radicalized against the society that hates them and that void gets filled by manosphere bros who tell them it's the fault of the Rothschilds and that all women are hoes.
pcthrowaway 2y ago
The movie Natural Born Killers apparently inspired several mass shootings (most notably, Columbine) Even if media (social or otherwise) can influence people to commit violence, does that justify censorship?
- brokenmachine 2y ago
  "Inspired" seems perhaps too strong a word for the connection. Can you say that, had Natural Born Killers not been made, there would have been no Columbine? I contend that it would have happened anyway. If that movie didn't exist, they would have found another movie to imitate, or even one of the other things they were interested in, such as DOOM or whatever. Correlation not causation. Sure, you could remove both Natural Born Killers and DOOM and KMFDM and whatever else, but then they would have moved to something else. You can't ban everything just because some sick people might enjoy it. How many mass shootings have been inspired by the bible or the quran, or The Catcher in the Rye?

harry8 2y ago

Nope, wrong cause direction. Do people never become mass killers to get attention? Does giving mass killers more attention, making them famous affect anything, maybe encourage more? "No" is a reasonable response if you can support it.

_Algernon_ 2y ago
You know what the actual biggest difference between countries with large amounts of mass killings and those that don't is? Gun control. Luigi Mangione's comments on stack overflow don't even register in terms of violence caused. These kinds of removals are simply attempts at information control by the elite, and -- assuming you're not part of the 1% -- you're playing straight into their hand. "The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles." - Karl Marx
- harry8 2y ago
  > Luigi Mangione's comments on stack overflow don't even register in terms of violence caused. This is completely and totally true. Totally irrelevant in terms of what policy /should/ be and one of the reasons to move it away from one example because what fits one example may not be generally applicable. I have not and do not stick up for S.O. Marx, yeah nah I don't think he's helpful here or indeed anywhere.
  - _Algernon_ 2y ago
    Marx is incredibly helpful in most things as long as you realize that he managed to identify the right problem (which I referenced by the quote), not necessarily the solution; and that his proposed solutions have never been properly tested, and that his ideas for the solution to the problem were -- just like Nietzsche's ideas -- bastardized by terrible people for their own gain. You don't have to be a communist to realize that Marx was instrumental in giving us the labor movement, including unions which most people who haven't been indoctrinated over generations with red scare tactics will realize where good things and important mechanisms against overreach by the powerful.
- throwaway48476 2y ago
  Mexico has virtually 0 legaly owned firearms. Total gun control. Yet they have large amounts of mass murders.
  - _Algernon_ 2y ago
    Guns being illegal without being enforced isn't gun control. That much should be obvious.
    - throwaway48476 2y ago
      It is enforced. No one legally has guns.
      - oneeyedpigeon 2y ago
        That's not the point. If everyone has an illegal gun, that's a law not being enforced and mass murder is all-but guaranteed.
        lazide 2y ago
        How does the last part follow from any of the previous parts?
        throwaway48476 2y ago
        Only the cartels have guns, it's what enables them to use them against those who do not and it is why they can commit such atrocities unimpeded.
      - _Algernon_ 2y ago
        Legality and enforcement are orthogonal concepts. They should align, but sometimes they don't and you get an unenforced law. Obviously, less people's behavior will be changed if there are no consequences to doing the illegal thing. Gun control implies the need for enforcement, because you need to act on something in some way to control it. A piece of paper with some words on it (which is what an unenforced law is) can't act on people by itself.

dpc050505 2y ago

Marc Lépine's manifesto (he walked into Montréal's Polytechnique and killed 14 women and shot several more, he was blaming them studying and feminism for his not getting accepted) is treated as gospel on incel forums. Many acts of incel/misogynist terrorism have been committed by people who frequented such forums. Ideology is not videogames and does have an impact on people's actions. You can look at the whole history of the 20th centuries' wars for another very obvious example.

_Algernon_ 2y ago
I don't need others to decide what ideology I need to be protected from for me. I'm much more concerned about the ideology of the people who think information control is justifiable. Others are responsible for their own actions. Don't impose information control on me because others do stupid shit.
- Cumpiler69 2y ago
  >I'm much more concerned about the ideology of the people who think information control is justifiable. Indeed. That's only to justify blatant censorship. Reading books doesn't cause people to kill other people. If someone kills someone after reading a book, that person already had huge issues and was on the edge to kill already, and instead of a addressing the issue by investing more in helping those with mental illnesses, we take the dumb cheap and easy way out of blaming books, video games, forums, incels, toxic masculinity, etc. Everyone is quick to blame incels but nobody asks why do men become incels in the first place and how to prevent that by addressing the causes and not the effects. The truth is our current society has a disproportionate lack of safety nets and help available to males and male issues, when compared to females, hence why there's 10x the rate of suicides and homelessness for males vs females, and is also one of the reasons why men have statistically been going more conservative and right wing in the last decade or so. Yet nobody talks about this or wants to do anything to address this and just resorts to shaming men who draw attention to this as incels and "far right" and calls it a day. When society takes away young men's communities (previously it was the church) and purpose in life, their prospect of building a family, good job (men used to be able to support a family by bolting bumpers to Fords in a factory) and owning a home, and demonize them for the sins of their fathers (patriarchy and male Privilege) while depriving them of any help, it's no surprise they become radicalized against the society that hates them and that void gets filled by manosphere bros who tell them it's the fault of the Rothschilds and that all women are hoes.

pcthrowaway 2y ago

The movie Natural Born Killers apparently inspired several mass shootings (most notably, Columbine) Even if media (social or otherwise) can influence people to commit violence, does that justify censorship?

brokenmachine 2y ago
"Inspired" seems perhaps too strong a word for the connection. Can you say that, had Natural Born Killers not been made, there would have been no Columbine? I contend that it would have happened anyway. If that movie didn't exist, they would have found another movie to imitate, or even one of the other things they were interested in, such as DOOM or whatever. Correlation not causation. Sure, you could remove both Natural Born Killers and DOOM and KMFDM and whatever else, but then they would have moved to something else. You can't ban everything just because some sick people might enjoy it. How many mass shootings have been inspired by the bible or the quran, or The Catcher in the Rye?