5 ms·

The images of the most effective human rights leaders have been so whitewashed. Many of the greats were definitely killers. Nelson Mandela famously founded a "

The images of the most effective human rights leaders have been so whitewashed. Many of the greats were definitely killers. Nelson Mandela famously founded a "terrorist" organization and for years refused to condemn any partisan violence.

mustache_kimono 2y ago
Yes, but simple as -- Nelson Mandela is not Luigi Mangione. This isn't apartheid. Get a hold on your horses and grow up. You live in a republic. You need to convince other people single payer health care is the right policy.
- michaelsshaw 2y ago
  >You need to convince other people single payer health care is the right policy. I think we've effectively already done that. What people actually want does not impact the way in which our government functions, despite popular belief. The people in this country have absolutely no power and are tired of it. You can't vote out a parasitic system that exists only to extract as much from you as possible. The people who "represent" us only focus on culture war bullshit INTENTIONALLY, to distract from the fact that the one of two preselected candidates we have basically represent the same despicable capitalists and their same interests of stripping us of everything you have so they can have more shit they don't need, while the rest of us are fighting over their droppings.
  - bigstrat2003 2y ago
    > I think we've effectively already done that. You definitely haven't. Lots of Americans would be deeply unhappy if single payer healthcare were implemented tomorrow. Say what you will about whether they should be convinced, but they haven't been.
    - bagels 2y ago
      Who? Insurance employees?
    - mw1 2y ago
      The majority is convinced. Nearly 70% support Medicare for All across multiple polls and that’s with the leadership of both major parties, corporate interests, and news media aligned against. https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/494602-poll-69-percent-of-voters-support-medicare-for-all/ https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/494602-pol...
  - imgabe 2y ago
    > What people actually want does not impact the way in which our government functions, despite popular belief. The US just elected a president despite a years-long coordinated media and legal effort to make him disappear, along with multiple assassination attempts. So, yes, what the people want does actually matter. They just don't happen to want what you think they should want.
    - michaelsshaw 2y ago
      And four years before that they elected a literal corpse because they were so sick of Donald Trump. And yet, somehow, the 2024 election was borderline the same. Did literally anyone want Trump v Biden v 2.0? No. Literally nobody wanted that. Did anyone actually want Kamala? No. Literally nobody wanted that. >coordinated media and legal effort to make him disappear Donald Trump is the most reported-on person of the past 10 years. This sentence does not make sense. >along with multiple assassination attempts You put this in the same sentence to make it seem like his "assassins" were on the same page as the media. They were not. Both of them were highly ineffective and downright cringey with their plans.
      - throwaway48476 2y ago
        Yet one very nearly succeeded.
    - bagels 2y ago
      How do you try to make someone disappear by talking about and showing video of them every day?
      - imgabe 2y ago
        You talk about them as a "threat to democracy" in hopes some homicidal lunatic will take it to heart.
    - dqv 2y ago
      > So, yes, what the people want does actually matter. No, it doesn't. Unless what they want aligns with what the ruling class and interest groups want. [0] The propaganda arm of the ruling class, of course, endeavors to get the public on their side precisely because violence ensues when they push too far without public buy-in. [0]: https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B/S1537592714001595a.pdf/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens.pdf https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/c...
  - ZeroGravitas 2y ago
    There's research that supports this. The laws that get passed depend on corporate, not public support. It's why academics have been referring to the US as an oligarchy for a while now.
  - 0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago
    >The people in this country have absolutely no power and are tired of it. You can't vote out a parasitic system that exists only to extract as much from you as possible. The people who "represent" us only focus on culture war bullshit INTENTIONALLY, to distract from the fact that the one of two preselected candidates we have basically represent the same despicable capitalists and their same interests of stripping us of everything you have so they can have more shit they don't need, while the rest of us are fighting over their droppings. I miss old-school conspiracy theorists like Ron Unz who actually have sophisticated arguments for what they believe. The internet is now full of handwavey conspiratorial BS that's "not even wrong". Who is writing all of this stuff? At least the 9/11 truthers made specific false claims.
    - michaelsshaw 2y ago
      me: "The rich steal from the poor and use politics to divide and distract them" this guy: "You're literally a 9/11 level conspiracy theorist!!!!!"
      - 0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago
        Again, the distinction I'm drawing is: 9/11 conspiracy theorists at least tried to present factual arguments for their claims. You haven't done so, and I don't think you ever will. (Insofar as your "claims" can even be hammered down -- they're incredibly vague.) It's not a point in your favor that your flavor of conspiratorial thinking is so widespread despite its thin evidence base. https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/america-doesnt-really-have-a-working https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/america-doesnt-really-have-a-w...
- hulitu 2y ago
  > Nelson Mandela is not Luigi Mangione. > This isn't apartheid You're right. It is just segregation, a thing at which US (still) excels.
- deanCommie 2y ago
  There is a now infamous tweet: "People on twitter will really be like "you believe in voting? that pales in effectiveness to my strategy, firebombing a Walmart" and then not firebomb a Walmart" [0] Well, Luigi firebombed a Walmart. Is that a valid strategy for enacting societal change? Perhaps not. But this republic accepts and engages in war. And as Clusewitz says, ""War is the continuation of policy with other means." [1] Perhaps Luigi is also pursuing policy change through other means. I have to say that watching American politicians and law enforcement agencies treat the man who at worst committed one murder (alleged; innocent until proven guilty) with the wrath and civil rights abuses previously only reserved for terrorists associated with 9/11 makes me believe that his actions genuinely shocked the system. I'll be shocked if he makes it to trial alive. [0] https://x.com/LinkofSunshine/status/1720538218628558969?lang=en https://x.com/LinkofSunshine/status/1720538218628558969?lang... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_von_Clausewitz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_von_Clausewitz
  - michaelsshaw 2y ago
    >the wrath and civil rights abuses previously only reserved for terrorists associated with 9/11 makes me believe that his actions genuinely shocked the system. When people responded positively or indifferently to the killing of Thompson, the ruling class took notice. That's REAL power, a new sensation to most Americans. I can hope only good things can come of this realization.
  - immibis 2y ago
    Regardless of whether or not you think it's valid, it's clearly very effective. No major social change for the better has EVER happened in history without such actions. It seems to go like this: 1. One group calmly demands some sensible thing. They might do some protests. 2. The powers that be say no, because they like the status quo. They might arrest some people for peaceful protesting. 3. A different group does some violence. 4. The powers that be acquiesce to the first group because the alternative is continued violence. The second group has no basis to continue the violence once the first group is acquiesced to. 5. History paints the first group as the ones who caused change and the second group as bad people who shouldn't have done what they did. It's got to be one of those psychological sales tricks. Door in the face technique? Anyway, this is the ONLY way that regular people have EVER caused things to change for the better, so take that into consideration. (Whatever counter-example you're thinking of is probably not actually a counter-example)
- immibis 2y ago
  Why don't you think it's apartheid?
- llmthrow102 2y ago
  The average American citizen has less influence on politics in their "republic" than a citizen of a dictatorship. Only the will of the financial elite actually has influence. See Gilens and Page 2014. It really doesn't matter if people are convinced to want single payer or not, it isn't going to happen. There are many, many systems in place to prevent the will of the people from happening if the elite don't want it.
  - mustache_kimono 2y ago
    > The average American citizen has less influence on politics in their "republic" than a citizen of a dictatorship. You can't be serious.
- chongli 2y ago
  Be careful what you wish for. I live in Canada. We have single payer health care here. The system is collapsing. Practitioners are getting burned out and extremely unhappy. Waiting lists for many common procedures just keep getting longer and longer. Many people don’t have access to a family physician and ER waiting rooms are overcrowded.
  - danlitt 2y ago
    I guarantee you whatever problems with Canada's single payer healthcare, it kills far fewer people than the US's monstrous system.
- danlitt 2y ago
  "you need to" - apparently we don't. Apparently we can do this, too, and it works.
  - mustache_kimono 2y ago
    > Apparently we can do this, too, and it works. Works how? What if the right began killing or indefinitely detaining left wing figures in retribution? How would that work? Just let this play out in your mind, and ask how much of this sounds like some right wing militia fantasia set in 1995. BTW I was in OKC in 1995. Thank God it didn't and doesn't work. "It's not Halloween. Grow up, Peter Pan. Count Chocula."
    - danlitt 2y ago
      Began?
aoanevdus 2y ago
Nelson Mandela didn’t kill anyone! “Murder is ok” is a really weird message to take home from the knowledge that Nelson Mandela was slandered.
- michaelsshaw 2y ago
  I didn't mean to imply he did. But his group, uMkhonto weSizwe, definitely did.
- danlitt 2y ago
  Oh, grow up. Nobody is saying "Murder is ok". They are saying that some killing, sometimes, can be worth it to further a certain political aim, which is obvious to anyone who knows any history.
  - aoanevdus 2y ago
    Are you saying the murder of Brian Thompson is ok, or not? If it’s ok to murder the CEO of a health insurance company, how about the CTO? How about a director? How about a manager of claims adjusters? How about an adjuster? How about the CEO of Exxon? How about Twitter? What about a engineering manager of the team who actually implements the parts of these companies you think are evil? Don’t tell me it can’t happen - if lots of people are on Luigi’s side, there will surely be a lot of diversity among the opinions of his followers. Somebody shot 3 people at the YouTube HQ because the company was biased against veganism. What’s the limiting principle here? Are you sure you aren’t on the “ok to murder” list?

mustache_kimono 2y ago

Yes, but simple as -- Nelson Mandela is not Luigi Mangione. This isn't apartheid. Get a hold on your horses and grow up. You live in a republic. You need to convince other people single payer health care is the right policy.

michaelsshaw 2y ago
>You need to convince other people single payer health care is the right policy. I think we've effectively already done that. What people actually want does not impact the way in which our government functions, despite popular belief. The people in this country have absolutely no power and are tired of it. You can't vote out a parasitic system that exists only to extract as much from you as possible. The people who "represent" us only focus on culture war bullshit INTENTIONALLY, to distract from the fact that the one of two preselected candidates we have basically represent the same despicable capitalists and their same interests of stripping us of everything you have so they can have more shit they don't need, while the rest of us are fighting over their droppings.
- bigstrat2003 2y ago
  > I think we've effectively already done that. You definitely haven't. Lots of Americans would be deeply unhappy if single payer healthcare were implemented tomorrow. Say what you will about whether they should be convinced, but they haven't been.
  - bagels 2y ago
    Who? Insurance employees?
  - mw1 2y ago
    The majority is convinced. Nearly 70% support Medicare for All across multiple polls and that’s with the leadership of both major parties, corporate interests, and news media aligned against. https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/494602-poll-69-percent-of-voters-support-medicare-for-all/ https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/494602-pol...
- imgabe 2y ago
  > What people actually want does not impact the way in which our government functions, despite popular belief. The US just elected a president despite a years-long coordinated media and legal effort to make him disappear, along with multiple assassination attempts. So, yes, what the people want does actually matter. They just don't happen to want what you think they should want.
  - michaelsshaw 2y ago
    And four years before that they elected a literal corpse because they were so sick of Donald Trump. And yet, somehow, the 2024 election was borderline the same. Did literally anyone want Trump v Biden v 2.0? No. Literally nobody wanted that. Did anyone actually want Kamala? No. Literally nobody wanted that. >coordinated media and legal effort to make him disappear Donald Trump is the most reported-on person of the past 10 years. This sentence does not make sense. >along with multiple assassination attempts You put this in the same sentence to make it seem like his "assassins" were on the same page as the media. They were not. Both of them were highly ineffective and downright cringey with their plans.
    - throwaway48476 2y ago
      Yet one very nearly succeeded.
  - bagels 2y ago
    How do you try to make someone disappear by talking about and showing video of them every day?
    - imgabe 2y ago
      You talk about them as a "threat to democracy" in hopes some homicidal lunatic will take it to heart.
  - dqv 2y ago
    > So, yes, what the people want does actually matter. No, it doesn't. Unless what they want aligns with what the ruling class and interest groups want. [0] The propaganda arm of the ruling class, of course, endeavors to get the public on their side precisely because violence ensues when they push too far without public buy-in. [0]: https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B/S1537592714001595a.pdf/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens.pdf https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/c...
- ZeroGravitas 2y ago
  There's research that supports this. The laws that get passed depend on corporate, not public support. It's why academics have been referring to the US as an oligarchy for a while now.
- 0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago
  >The people in this country have absolutely no power and are tired of it. You can't vote out a parasitic system that exists only to extract as much from you as possible. The people who "represent" us only focus on culture war bullshit INTENTIONALLY, to distract from the fact that the one of two preselected candidates we have basically represent the same despicable capitalists and their same interests of stripping us of everything you have so they can have more shit they don't need, while the rest of us are fighting over their droppings. I miss old-school conspiracy theorists like Ron Unz who actually have sophisticated arguments for what they believe. The internet is now full of handwavey conspiratorial BS that's "not even wrong". Who is writing all of this stuff? At least the 9/11 truthers made specific false claims.
  - michaelsshaw 2y ago
    me: "The rich steal from the poor and use politics to divide and distract them" this guy: "You're literally a 9/11 level conspiracy theorist!!!!!"
    - 0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago
      Again, the distinction I'm drawing is: 9/11 conspiracy theorists at least tried to present factual arguments for their claims. You haven't done so, and I don't think you ever will. (Insofar as your "claims" can even be hammered down -- they're incredibly vague.) It's not a point in your favor that your flavor of conspiratorial thinking is so widespread despite its thin evidence base. https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/america-doesnt-really-have-a-working https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/america-doesnt-really-have-a-w...
hulitu 2y ago
> Nelson Mandela is not Luigi Mangione. > This isn't apartheid You're right. It is just segregation, a thing at which US (still) excels.
deanCommie 2y ago
There is a now infamous tweet: "People on twitter will really be like "you believe in voting? that pales in effectiveness to my strategy, firebombing a Walmart" and then not firebomb a Walmart" [0] Well, Luigi firebombed a Walmart. Is that a valid strategy for enacting societal change? Perhaps not. But this republic accepts and engages in war. And as Clusewitz says, ""War is the continuation of policy with other means." [1] Perhaps Luigi is also pursuing policy change through other means. I have to say that watching American politicians and law enforcement agencies treat the man who at worst committed one murder (alleged; innocent until proven guilty) with the wrath and civil rights abuses previously only reserved for terrorists associated with 9/11 makes me believe that his actions genuinely shocked the system. I'll be shocked if he makes it to trial alive. [0] https://x.com/LinkofSunshine/status/1720538218628558969?lang=en https://x.com/LinkofSunshine/status/1720538218628558969?lang... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_von_Clausewitz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_von_Clausewitz
- michaelsshaw 2y ago
  >the wrath and civil rights abuses previously only reserved for terrorists associated with 9/11 makes me believe that his actions genuinely shocked the system. When people responded positively or indifferently to the killing of Thompson, the ruling class took notice. That's REAL power, a new sensation to most Americans. I can hope only good things can come of this realization.
- immibis 2y ago
  Regardless of whether or not you think it's valid, it's clearly very effective. No major social change for the better has EVER happened in history without such actions. It seems to go like this: 1. One group calmly demands some sensible thing. They might do some protests. 2. The powers that be say no, because they like the status quo. They might arrest some people for peaceful protesting. 3. A different group does some violence. 4. The powers that be acquiesce to the first group because the alternative is continued violence. The second group has no basis to continue the violence once the first group is acquiesced to. 5. History paints the first group as the ones who caused change and the second group as bad people who shouldn't have done what they did. It's got to be one of those psychological sales tricks. Door in the face technique? Anyway, this is the ONLY way that regular people have EVER caused things to change for the better, so take that into consideration. (Whatever counter-example you're thinking of is probably not actually a counter-example)
immibis 2y ago
Why don't you think it's apartheid?
llmthrow102 2y ago
The average American citizen has less influence on politics in their "republic" than a citizen of a dictatorship. Only the will of the financial elite actually has influence. See Gilens and Page 2014. It really doesn't matter if people are convinced to want single payer or not, it isn't going to happen. There are many, many systems in place to prevent the will of the people from happening if the elite don't want it.
- mustache_kimono 2y ago
  > The average American citizen has less influence on politics in their "republic" than a citizen of a dictatorship. You can't be serious.
chongli 2y ago
Be careful what you wish for. I live in Canada. We have single payer health care here. The system is collapsing. Practitioners are getting burned out and extremely unhappy. Waiting lists for many common procedures just keep getting longer and longer. Many people don’t have access to a family physician and ER waiting rooms are overcrowded.
- danlitt 2y ago
  I guarantee you whatever problems with Canada's single payer healthcare, it kills far fewer people than the US's monstrous system.
danlitt 2y ago
"you need to" - apparently we don't. Apparently we can do this, too, and it works.
- mustache_kimono 2y ago
  > Apparently we can do this, too, and it works. Works how? What if the right began killing or indefinitely detaining left wing figures in retribution? How would that work? Just let this play out in your mind, and ask how much of this sounds like some right wing militia fantasia set in 1995. BTW I was in OKC in 1995. Thank God it didn't and doesn't work. "It's not Halloween. Grow up, Peter Pan. Count Chocula."
  - danlitt 2y ago
    Began?

aoanevdus 2y ago

Nelson Mandela didn’t kill anyone! “Murder is ok” is a really weird message to take home from the knowledge that Nelson Mandela was slandered.

michaelsshaw 2y ago
I didn't mean to imply he did. But his group, uMkhonto weSizwe, definitely did.
danlitt 2y ago
Oh, grow up. Nobody is saying "Murder is ok". They are saying that some killing, sometimes, can be worth it to further a certain political aim, which is obvious to anyone who knows any history.
- aoanevdus 2y ago
  Are you saying the murder of Brian Thompson is ok, or not? If it’s ok to murder the CEO of a health insurance company, how about the CTO? How about a director? How about a manager of claims adjusters? How about an adjuster? How about the CEO of Exxon? How about Twitter? What about a engineering manager of the team who actually implements the parts of these companies you think are evil? Don’t tell me it can’t happen - if lots of people are on Luigi’s side, there will surely be a lot of diversity among the opinions of his followers. Somebody shot 3 people at the YouTube HQ because the company was biased against veganism. What’s the limiting principle here? Are you sure you aren’t on the “ok to murder” list?