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I'm still uneasy about it. They're in a vulnerable position and the alternative is unpleasant because of the same people offering the "opportunity". The pay i

by mulmen 2y ago

I'm still uneasy about it. They're in a vulnerable position and the alternative is unpleasant because of the same people offering the "opportunity". The pay is only legal because they're prisoners. If it was a fair wage I'd be more comfortable although still uneasy.

throwup238 2y ago
Almost everyone in California felt uneasy about it after the 2018-2020 fires. In 2021 the governor signed a retroactive law that allowed nonviolent offenders serving less than 8 years to expunge their records if they served as firefighters while incarcerated. I’d prefer they get paid at least minimum wage anyway, but they’re better off than most other prisoners because the expungement means their background checks can come back clean for any job, not just firefighting.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
mullingitover 2y ago
California voters had a question before them in this election of whether or not to ban the practice of slavery, and they voted to keep practicing slavery.
- nradov 2y ago
  It's not slavery. The inmate firefighters are paid below minimum wage but it's completely voluntary. They can quit any time and go sit in state prison if they prefer. We can argue about whether they should be paid more, but let's not trivialize real slavery by misusing the term.
  - mullingitover 2y ago
    In general when you're a "prisoner with a job," that's slavery, even if there's some pittance of a wage involved. They're paid $10 a day, let's not pretend this is a fair wage for a fair day's work. This is a form of economic warfare against the working class, who shouldn't have to compete against prison labor.
    - daedrdev 2y ago
      They also get reduced time. Considering the program is extremely sought after, I think it should continue in light of the fact that its literally what they prefer compared to not doing anything
      - mullingitover 2y ago
        I don't have a problem with the program, or any prison labor program, as long as it's paying at or above market wages. We sanction Chinese companies for using prison labor in their products because it's ethically wrong. We shouldn't be engaging in the same practice we sanction other countries for. Depending on slave labor from prisoners also creates a conflict of interests for society because it creates incentives to imprison people rather than prevent crime. It should never be a smart financial move to imprison your citizens.
  - mulmen 2y ago
    It's very literally slavery. You don't have to deny it because the practice is legal in the United States. As you say, they can do this work or they can sit in state prison. I don't have to squint to see how that's a threat. These prisoners didn't volunteer to be in prison. If you gave them the choice of fighting fires or going free I doubt many would pick the $10.00 a day firefighting gig.
anon291 2y ago
They're being provided with a full life while the rest of us pay for it. If, at market rate, their earnings make up for the expense the state pays for them, I'd be willing to let them earn it, but I doubt any are earning that much.
- saagarjha 2y ago
  A full life…in prison?
- bwock 2y ago
  Yeah, but the amendment was to get rid of slavery. And it failed.
- mulmen 2y ago
  The problem with running prisons like a business is that they scale so well.
daedrdev 2y ago
It's one of the most sought after opportunities in prison. And the state can't afford to pay them fully. Considering they want to do it, and the state already pays a huge amount to house prisoners, its not that insane
- mulmen 2y ago
  > It's one of the most sought after opportunities in prison. "In prison" is doing a lot of work there. > And the state can't afford to pay them fully. Then the state can't afford to be on fire. An externality that isn't accounted for. > Considering they want to do it, and the state already pays a huge amount to house prisoners, its not that insane. I'm really shocked to hear someone just casually say slavery in the United States in 2025 isn't insane. I mean it's legal so maybe I am the crazy one but I'm personally troubled that this practice is going on. I don't even like that my state uses prison labor for license plates and that's not life threatening.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    yeah, I expect there are some foundational differences in world view at play. IMO, its not slavery because it is 100% optional. It is a restricted privilege that prisoners actively seek and compete for. It is sought after because it is an improvement over the alternative. I'm honestly unsure how this can be framed as a negative.
    - mulmen 2y ago
      > yeah, I expect there are some foundational differences in world view at play. Agree. I find it fascinating that perspectives can be so different. > It it is sought after because it is an improvement over the alternative. Yep, no objection from me. > I'm honestly unsure how this can be framed as a negative. To me it's the part where prison is apparently even worse than risking your life fighting fires for free. The incentives here are perverse. The worse prison conditions are the more "appealing" still-awful conditions become. Access to free labor creates an incentive for the state to create more of that labor. Rehabilitation becomes a threat to the practitioners. I think the biggest difference is that you believe there is a choice and I don't think that choice is meaningful.

by mulmen 2y ago

throwup238 2y ago

Almost everyone in California felt uneasy about it after the 2018-2020 fires. In 2021 the governor signed a retroactive law that allowed nonviolent offenders serving less than 8 years to expunge their records if they served as firefighters while incarcerated. I’d prefer they get paid at least minimum wage anyway, but they’re better off than most other prisoners because the expungement means their background checks can come back clean for any job, not just firefighting.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

mullingitover 2y ago

California voters had a question before them in this election of whether or not to ban the practice of slavery, and they voted to keep practicing slavery.

nradov 2y ago
It's not slavery. The inmate firefighters are paid below minimum wage but it's completely voluntary. They can quit any time and go sit in state prison if they prefer. We can argue about whether they should be paid more, but let's not trivialize real slavery by misusing the term.
- mullingitover 2y ago
  In general when you're a "prisoner with a job," that's slavery, even if there's some pittance of a wage involved. They're paid $10 a day, let's not pretend this is a fair wage for a fair day's work. This is a form of economic warfare against the working class, who shouldn't have to compete against prison labor.
  - daedrdev 2y ago
    They also get reduced time. Considering the program is extremely sought after, I think it should continue in light of the fact that its literally what they prefer compared to not doing anything
    - mullingitover 2y ago
      I don't have a problem with the program, or any prison labor program, as long as it's paying at or above market wages. We sanction Chinese companies for using prison labor in their products because it's ethically wrong. We shouldn't be engaging in the same practice we sanction other countries for. Depending on slave labor from prisoners also creates a conflict of interests for society because it creates incentives to imprison people rather than prevent crime. It should never be a smart financial move to imprison your citizens.
- mulmen 2y ago
  It's very literally slavery. You don't have to deny it because the practice is legal in the United States. As you say, they can do this work or they can sit in state prison. I don't have to squint to see how that's a threat. These prisoners didn't volunteer to be in prison. If you gave them the choice of fighting fires or going free I doubt many would pick the $10.00 a day firefighting gig.

anon291 2y ago

They're being provided with a full life while the rest of us pay for it. If, at market rate, their earnings make up for the expense the state pays for them, I'd be willing to let them earn it, but I doubt any are earning that much.

saagarjha 2y ago
A full life…in prison?
bwock 2y ago
Yeah, but the amendment was to get rid of slavery. And it failed.
mulmen 2y ago
The problem with running prisons like a business is that they scale so well.

daedrdev 2y ago

It's one of the most sought after opportunities in prison. And the state can't afford to pay them fully. Considering they want to do it, and the state already pays a huge amount to house prisoners, its not that insane

mulmen 2y ago
> It's one of the most sought after opportunities in prison. "In prison" is doing a lot of work there. > And the state can't afford to pay them fully. Then the state can't afford to be on fire. An externality that isn't accounted for. > Considering they want to do it, and the state already pays a huge amount to house prisoners, its not that insane. I'm really shocked to hear someone just casually say slavery in the United States in 2025 isn't insane. I mean it's legal so maybe I am the crazy one but I'm personally troubled that this practice is going on. I don't even like that my state uses prison labor for license plates and that's not life threatening.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  yeah, I expect there are some foundational differences in world view at play. IMO, its not slavery because it is 100% optional. It is a restricted privilege that prisoners actively seek and compete for. It is sought after because it is an improvement over the alternative. I'm honestly unsure how this can be framed as a negative.
  - mulmen 2y ago
    > yeah, I expect there are some foundational differences in world view at play. Agree. I find it fascinating that perspectives can be so different. > It it is sought after because it is an improvement over the alternative. Yep, no objection from me. > I'm honestly unsure how this can be framed as a negative. To me it's the part where prison is apparently even worse than risking your life fighting fires for free. The incentives here are perverse. The worse prison conditions are the more "appealing" still-awful conditions become. Access to free labor creates an incentive for the state to create more of that labor. Rehabilitation becomes a threat to the practitioners. I think the biggest difference is that you believe there is a choice and I don't think that choice is meaningful.