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> The National Guard - along with thousands of firefighters (many of them prisoners working for $10 a day or less) - have been deployed to help tackle the confl

> The National Guard - along with thousands of firefighters (many of them prisoners working for $10 a day or less) - have been deployed to help tackle the conflagration. I hope their compensation is a little more than $10 a day! By the looks of the fire, those guys/gals are heros.

mulmen 2y ago
From the source link it's hard to tell if these prisoners are even working voluntarily. Prisoners can be enslaved under the 13th amendment.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  They are volunteering and usually get time reduced for doing so.
  - mulmen 2y ago
    I'm still uneasy about it. They're in a vulnerable position and the alternative is unpleasant because of the same people offering the "opportunity". The pay is only legal because they're prisoners. If it was a fair wage I'd be more comfortable although still uneasy.
    - throwup238 2y ago
      Almost everyone in California felt uneasy about it after the 2018-2020 fires. In 2021 the governor signed a retroactive law that allowed nonviolent offenders serving less than 8 years to expunge their records if they served as firefighters while incarcerated. I’d prefer they get paid at least minimum wage anyway, but they’re better off than most other prisoners because the expungement means their background checks can come back clean for any job, not just firefighting.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
    - mullingitover 2y ago
      California voters had a question before them in this election of whether or not to ban the practice of slavery, and they voted to keep practicing slavery.
      - nradov 2y ago
        It's not slavery. The inmate firefighters are paid below minimum wage but it's completely voluntary. They can quit any time and go sit in state prison if they prefer. We can argue about whether they should be paid more, but let's not trivialize real slavery by misusing the term.
        mullingitover 2y ago
        In general when you're a "prisoner with a job," that's slavery, even if there's some pittance of a wage involved. They're paid $10 a day, let's not pretend this is a fair wage for a fair day's work. This is a form of economic warfare against the working class, who shouldn't have to compete against prison labor.
        daedrdev 2y ago
        They also get reduced time. Considering the program is extremely sought after, I think it should continue in light of the fact that its literally what they prefer compared to not doing anything
        mullingitover 2y ago
        I don't have a problem with the program, or any prison labor program, as long as it's paying at or above market wages. We sanction Chinese companies for using prison labor in their products because it's ethically wrong. We shouldn't be engaging in the same practice we sanction other countries for. Depending on slave labor from prisoners also creates a conflict of interests for society because it creates incentives to imprison people rather than prevent crime. It should never be a smart financial move to imprison your citizens.
        2y ago
    - anon291 2y ago
      They're being provided with a full life while the rest of us pay for it. If, at market rate, their earnings make up for the expense the state pays for them, I'd be willing to let them earn it, but I doubt any are earning that much.
      - saagarjha 2y ago
        A full life…in prison?
      - bwock 2y ago
        Yeah, but the amendment was to get rid of slavery. And it failed.
      - mulmen 2y ago
        The problem with running prisons like a business is that they scale so well.
    - daedrdev 2y ago
      It's one of the most sought after opportunities in prison. And the state can't afford to pay them fully. Considering they want to do it, and the state already pays a huge amount to house prisoners, its not that insane
      - mulmen 2y ago
        > It's one of the most sought after opportunities in prison. "In prison" is doing a lot of work there. > And the state can't afford to pay them fully. Then the state can't afford to be on fire. An externality that isn't accounted for. > Considering they want to do it, and the state already pays a huge amount to house prisoners, its not that insane. I'm really shocked to hear someone just casually say slavery in the United States in 2025 isn't insane. I mean it's legal so maybe I am the crazy one but I'm personally troubled that this practice is going on. I don't even like that my state uses prison labor for license plates and that's not life threatening.
        s1artibartfast 2y ago
        yeah, I expect there are some foundational differences in world view at play. IMO, its not slavery because it is 100% optional. It is a restricted privilege that prisoners actively seek and compete for. It is sought after because it is an improvement over the alternative. I'm honestly unsure how this can be framed as a negative.
        mulmen 2y ago
        > yeah, I expect there are some foundational differences in world view at play. Agree. I find it fascinating that perspectives can be so different. > It it is sought after because it is an improvement over the alternative. Yep, no objection from me. > I'm honestly unsure how this can be framed as a negative. To me it's the part where prison is apparently even worse than risking your life fighting fires for free. The incentives here are perverse. The worse prison conditions are the more "appealing" still-awful conditions become. Access to free labor creates an incentive for the state to create more of that labor. Rehabilitation becomes a threat to the practitioners. I think the biggest difference is that you believe there is a choice and I don't think that choice is meaningful.
  - immibis 2y ago
    "Work for us or we'll keep you locked up for 3 years longer than if you did" isn't really volunteering - more like extortion.
    - JoeAltmaier 2y ago
      Everybody faces this dilemma: work for the job or face worse consequences. You can spin it negative if you like. What alternative is there to this? Not let anybody reduce their sentence with public service, to serve some armchair philosopher's notion of what's 'extortion'?
      - immibis 2y ago
        Kind of like a lot of people want to ban congressional stock trading, to serve some armchair philosopher's notion of what's 'fair'?
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      Flip it around and it's not. The base case is the full time. Taking the option away doesn't help anyone.
      - mulmen 2y ago
        > Taking the option away doesn't help anyone. Except firefighters, prisoners, and society.
        s1artibartfast 2y ago
        I think having the option helps firefighters, helps prisoners, and helps society. Everyone is better off. Firefighters get additional support combating a huge problem, prisoners get shorter sentences, in society gets better fire prevention leading to fewer lives and Land Lost
        mulmen 2y ago
        Professional firefighters have to compete with prisoners for pay depressing firefighting wages. Prisoners have to do dangerous work and suffer long term health consequences for no compensation. Reduced sentences don’t count because the base sentence can be set to whatever the state requires to meet slave labor demands. Society loses because slave labor artificially reduces the cost of natural disasters. If slave labor is required to make an area safe for habitation then I submit that is not a safe place for habitation. The ends do not justify the means.
Stevvo 2y ago
Worse, upon release, none of them will be able to gain employment as a firefighter; you need a clean record for that.
- throwup238 2y ago
  Nonviolent prisoners who have served as firefighters during their incarceration can have their records expunged since a 2021 law (and it’s retroactive): https://www.cdcr.ca.gov/facility-locator/conservation-camps/fire_camp_expungement/ https://www.cdcr.ca.gov/facility-locator/conservation-camps/... This was a big deal after the Camp and Complex fires because of some viral articles that drew well justified outrage among Californians so they went a step above and just allowed them to expunge their records completely (so that they can get hired everywhere else too, they don’t have to become fire fighters). There are some stipulations like the sentence they served must be at most 8 years, but they’re not all banned from continuing their work.
- anon291 2y ago
  Well good, since professional and volunteer firefighters are the most common arsonists. People with violent criminal records should not be in those fields at all.
  - drawkward 2y ago
    Do you have a source for that claim? On the face, it seems pretty outrageous.
    - anon291 2y ago
      Yes . https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/fires-set-by-firefighters-a-long-standing-problem-experts-say-1.3563183 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/fires-set-by-firefig... I'm honestly surprised at the downvotes. I thought this was common knowledge.
      - drawkward 2y ago
        Your article cites 100 annual firefighter convictions for arson in North America. For your claim to be true, that means fewer than 200 arson convictions annually in all of Canada, US, and Mexico. It says firefighter arson is common, but does not appear to claim that they are the most common offender. That seems really really low!
Rebelgecko 2y ago
There was a ballot proposition to increase imprisoned firefighter compensation in November but it failed 47/53

mulmen 2y ago

From the source link it's hard to tell if these prisoners are even working voluntarily. Prisoners can be enslaved under the 13th amendment.

s1artibartfast 2y ago
They are volunteering and usually get time reduced for doing so.
- mulmen 2y ago
  I'm still uneasy about it. They're in a vulnerable position and the alternative is unpleasant because of the same people offering the "opportunity". The pay is only legal because they're prisoners. If it was a fair wage I'd be more comfortable although still uneasy.
  - throwup238 2y ago
    Almost everyone in California felt uneasy about it after the 2018-2020 fires. In 2021 the governor signed a retroactive law that allowed nonviolent offenders serving less than 8 years to expunge their records if they served as firefighters while incarcerated. I’d prefer they get paid at least minimum wage anyway, but they’re better off than most other prisoners because the expungement means their background checks can come back clean for any job, not just firefighting.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - mullingitover 2y ago
    California voters had a question before them in this election of whether or not to ban the practice of slavery, and they voted to keep practicing slavery.
    - nradov 2y ago
      It's not slavery. The inmate firefighters are paid below minimum wage but it's completely voluntary. They can quit any time and go sit in state prison if they prefer. We can argue about whether they should be paid more, but let's not trivialize real slavery by misusing the term.
      - mullingitover 2y ago
        In general when you're a "prisoner with a job," that's slavery, even if there's some pittance of a wage involved. They're paid $10 a day, let's not pretend this is a fair wage for a fair day's work. This is a form of economic warfare against the working class, who shouldn't have to compete against prison labor.
        daedrdev 2y ago
        They also get reduced time. Considering the program is extremely sought after, I think it should continue in light of the fact that its literally what they prefer compared to not doing anything
        mullingitover 2y ago
        I don't have a problem with the program, or any prison labor program, as long as it's paying at or above market wages. We sanction Chinese companies for using prison labor in their products because it's ethically wrong. We shouldn't be engaging in the same practice we sanction other countries for. Depending on slave labor from prisoners also creates a conflict of interests for society because it creates incentives to imprison people rather than prevent crime. It should never be a smart financial move to imprison your citizens.
      - 2y ago
  - anon291 2y ago
    They're being provided with a full life while the rest of us pay for it. If, at market rate, their earnings make up for the expense the state pays for them, I'd be willing to let them earn it, but I doubt any are earning that much.
    - saagarjha 2y ago
      A full life…in prison?
    - bwock 2y ago
      Yeah, but the amendment was to get rid of slavery. And it failed.
    - mulmen 2y ago
      The problem with running prisons like a business is that they scale so well.
  - daedrdev 2y ago
    It's one of the most sought after opportunities in prison. And the state can't afford to pay them fully. Considering they want to do it, and the state already pays a huge amount to house prisoners, its not that insane
    - mulmen 2y ago
      > It's one of the most sought after opportunities in prison. "In prison" is doing a lot of work there. > And the state can't afford to pay them fully. Then the state can't afford to be on fire. An externality that isn't accounted for. > Considering they want to do it, and the state already pays a huge amount to house prisoners, its not that insane. I'm really shocked to hear someone just casually say slavery in the United States in 2025 isn't insane. I mean it's legal so maybe I am the crazy one but I'm personally troubled that this practice is going on. I don't even like that my state uses prison labor for license plates and that's not life threatening.
      - s1artibartfast 2y ago
        yeah, I expect there are some foundational differences in world view at play. IMO, its not slavery because it is 100% optional. It is a restricted privilege that prisoners actively seek and compete for. It is sought after because it is an improvement over the alternative. I'm honestly unsure how this can be framed as a negative.
        mulmen 2y ago
        > yeah, I expect there are some foundational differences in world view at play. Agree. I find it fascinating that perspectives can be so different. > It it is sought after because it is an improvement over the alternative. Yep, no objection from me. > I'm honestly unsure how this can be framed as a negative. To me it's the part where prison is apparently even worse than risking your life fighting fires for free. The incentives here are perverse. The worse prison conditions are the more "appealing" still-awful conditions become. Access to free labor creates an incentive for the state to create more of that labor. Rehabilitation becomes a threat to the practitioners. I think the biggest difference is that you believe there is a choice and I don't think that choice is meaningful.
- immibis 2y ago
  "Work for us or we'll keep you locked up for 3 years longer than if you did" isn't really volunteering - more like extortion.
  - JoeAltmaier 2y ago
    Everybody faces this dilemma: work for the job or face worse consequences. You can spin it negative if you like. What alternative is there to this? Not let anybody reduce their sentence with public service, to serve some armchair philosopher's notion of what's 'extortion'?
    - immibis 2y ago
      Kind of like a lot of people want to ban congressional stock trading, to serve some armchair philosopher's notion of what's 'fair'?
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    Flip it around and it's not. The base case is the full time. Taking the option away doesn't help anyone.
    - mulmen 2y ago
      > Taking the option away doesn't help anyone. Except firefighters, prisoners, and society.
      - s1artibartfast 2y ago
        I think having the option helps firefighters, helps prisoners, and helps society. Everyone is better off. Firefighters get additional support combating a huge problem, prisoners get shorter sentences, in society gets better fire prevention leading to fewer lives and Land Lost
        mulmen 2y ago
        Professional firefighters have to compete with prisoners for pay depressing firefighting wages. Prisoners have to do dangerous work and suffer long term health consequences for no compensation. Reduced sentences don’t count because the base sentence can be set to whatever the state requires to meet slave labor demands. Society loses because slave labor artificially reduces the cost of natural disasters. If slave labor is required to make an area safe for habitation then I submit that is not a safe place for habitation. The ends do not justify the means.

Stevvo 2y ago

Worse, upon release, none of them will be able to gain employment as a firefighter; you need a clean record for that.

throwup238 2y ago
Nonviolent prisoners who have served as firefighters during their incarceration can have their records expunged since a 2021 law (and it’s retroactive): https://www.cdcr.ca.gov/facility-locator/conservation-camps/fire_camp_expungement/ https://www.cdcr.ca.gov/facility-locator/conservation-camps/... This was a big deal after the Camp and Complex fires because of some viral articles that drew well justified outrage among Californians so they went a step above and just allowed them to expunge their records completely (so that they can get hired everywhere else too, they don’t have to become fire fighters). There are some stipulations like the sentence they served must be at most 8 years, but they’re not all banned from continuing their work.
anon291 2y ago
Well good, since professional and volunteer firefighters are the most common arsonists. People with violent criminal records should not be in those fields at all.
- drawkward 2y ago
  Do you have a source for that claim? On the face, it seems pretty outrageous.
  - anon291 2y ago
    Yes . https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/fires-set-by-firefighters-a-long-standing-problem-experts-say-1.3563183 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/fires-set-by-firefig... I'm honestly surprised at the downvotes. I thought this was common knowledge.
    - drawkward 2y ago
      Your article cites 100 annual firefighter convictions for arson in North America. For your claim to be true, that means fewer than 200 arson convictions annually in all of Canada, US, and Mexico. It says firefighter arson is common, but does not appear to claim that they are the most common offender. That seems really really low!

Rebelgecko 2y ago

There was a ballot proposition to increase imprisoned firefighter compensation in November but it failed 47/53