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I went to UW a decade ago, and back then it was pretty common knowledge that you don't fuck with software and the class registration system. Registering for cla
by simonbw 2y ago
I went to UW a decade ago, and back then it was pretty common knowledge that you don't fuck with software and the class registration system. Registering for classes was really competitive and they were really strict about making sure that no one had an edge over anyone else by being able to write code. There were plenty of rumors of people being expelled for using scripts to try to get the classes they wanted right when they opened. I also believe they forbid or at least frowned on students "trading" registrations, because they didn't want even more people trying to sign up for high value classes and trading them as a commodity.
So at least back when I went there, basically any CS student could have told you that this website was a horrible idea that is sure to get you in trouble.
- uwthrowaway 2y agoUW cs student - most current cs students would still know that this would get you in trouble.
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- isotypic 2y agoI am somewhat surprised issues of scripting and trading even exist in the registration system. Staggering enrollment times over a few days, with new waves every 20 minutes or so, mostly solves scripting issues since you are only competing with a fraction of the student body now. Giving courses waitlists once they are full, instead of allowing people to just directly register once a spot frees up, makes trading impossible since if you could trade you could have just registered for the course anyways. I understand that the registration system is probably old and tied up in tons of just as old management software, but if the university really cared the solutions should be there.
- loeg 2y agoSo, for context, UW's registration system runs on, like, a single 1980s VAX.
- lupire 2y agoI didn't know VAX had web APIs. Do you know that software can be used to build a wrapper layer around other software?
- twodave 2y agoIt's much easier to build a gateway API for a legacy system than to extend it. Not disagreeing with you. Honestly, though, software systems for academic institutions are ridiculously complicated, because they are essentially a student portal, a school, a sales organization, a rules engine, etc. etc. all wrapped up into one and interconnected in ways that aren't obvious on the surface.
- confidentlyinc 2y agoThat is confidently incorrect
- dpedu 2y agoThe school I attended in 2010 had a system like this as well. Awful backend with a simple, but still awful, web interface to talk to it. There was rumor you could telnet in and use an actual text interface, but I never saw it. The system was replaced a few years later with an Oracle PeopleSoft implementation. Everybody hated it more.
- campbel 2y agoI went to school about 20 years ago and we had staggered online registrations. Surprised the best solutions haven't propagated further.
- wil421 2y agoPretty much every schools uses staggered registrations to allow upper class men or even athletes the ability to get classes they need.
- hirvi74 2y ago> they were really strict about making sure that no one had an edge over anyone else by being able to write code. Or you know, they could have just improved their registration system so this wouldn't be an issue... But hey, I'm sure UW raises their tuition every year for good reasons and the money is well spent.
- scotty79 2y agoThis is so bizarre to me that I'm not sure if I understand it correctly. They soft lock him out of UW system which will get him expelled for having an idea for an app for trading spots in classes and implementing a demo with fake data and using the token they provided him with to download data that is public already? And then they try to blackmail him with a promise of restoring system access to do unpaid compelled work for them?
- loeg 2y agoI'd heard of people writing these kinds of scripts but never heard of anyone getting expelled for it (ca. 2010).
- DaSHacka 2y agoAt my University, scripts like these are pretty much universal. We even have an alumni-run site that scrapes the registration platform's API for the details of every course to provide a better UI interface. It even has a tool to generate an AutoHotkey script so students can insta-register for all their classes seconds after registration opens up for them (it's usually a mad rush at midnight when course registration opens for freshman/sophomores as they all compete for the remaining course slots left after seniors and juniors have already registered). Seems inane an institution would crack down on it. We even have another alumni-run site that does nothing but FOIA the average GPA of all courses from every professor; While I can't imagine the university is thrilled about it, as it's completely legal they haven't tried to pressure the creators to shut it down afaik.
- macNchz 2y ago> Seems inane an institution would crack down on it. Mad rushes to register requiring people to use automations like that sounds like a bad system to me, and something the university should be trying to address. That said, rather than a crackdown on tools, it’d make more sense to implement a harder-to-game system like spreading registration across a long period and assigning students to have their access unlock at a random time during the period. My college had time-slot (in person!) appointments like that 20 years ago.
- mmcwilliams 2y agoIf the university offers an API then it's not a "scrape". If you're describing unauthorized use of an API then you've disclosed a possible CFAA violation, not web scraping.
- DaSHacka 2y agoI have no idea how they do it, and I don't care if they're breaking the CFAA; Neither are my problem. Though they do claim to obtain at least some of their information using an API, so if it's the word "scrape" you take issue with in the post, perhaps "queries" is a better fit.
- asdffdasy 2y agoit's almost like universities are about controlling an artificial limited access to knowledge than about knowledge uh.
- gonzobonzo 2y agoThat's what bothers me the most about this. The reason this is even an issue in the first place is because universities are aren't adequately providing what the students want. So you want to study, say, engineering. First you have to apply and get admitted to the university, and many people aren't admitted. The acceptance rate I can find for UW is 54% in-state, 46% out of state. Then the university tells you that if you want to study engineering, you have to study a lot of other non-engineering things it feels like you should study. All of which are pretty costly and time consuming. You might have to take courses in things you already know, because there are few courses you can test out of and the universities limit how many credits it can bring over. Then on top of this, the universities don't provide anywhere near enough adequate quality classes for students, which is the whole reason why there's this level of demand in the first place. Not only do they not provide enough, they know they don't provide enough, so their response is since it's "really competitive" they need to be "really strict about making sure that no one had an edge over anyone else." It's not about making sure students needs are being met, even for classes that the university is forcing on them. It's about restricting students, so that they suffer a roughly equal amount from the university's failures. The attitude of the universities seems to be that since they're the only game in town, students have to suffer through all of this. Imagine a system where students could take classes from anywhere they want, and then could get a degree just by passing assessments at the university. I imagine the number of people paying huge amounts of money for inadequate classes would plummet.
- lupire 2y agoIt's not the university's fault that the taxpayers refuse to fund a larger school. Edit per reply: $1M/yr for the President is less than $50/student/year. Not funding more classes for students.
- 2y ago
- gorgoiler 2y agoNon-transferable class registrations decided by lottery would solve this. Publicly visible, physical random number generation is important of course. With pre-registration you can also get an idea of demand in advance, instead of having to post-hoc schedule additional classes (or concert tour dates, or airline flights, or PS5 units, or… etc.) Non-transferability means the lottery is continuous. As soon as anyone relinquishes their class, the lottery will have to run again to reallocate. You could do this daily. This is a technical solution that works but it overlooks the cultural side of a resource allocator wanting their resource to generate hype and demand, build up to the Big Event, and then sell out in “record time”. I can understand that a big part of University marketing is to try to seem as popular and oversubscribed as possible, even if I don’t agree with it. Finally of course, the public RNG bit feels like the most interesting. A giant continuous dice tumbler in the middle of UW’s Red Square? The tumbler feels easy, but how would you make a physical ledger to record the dice rolls automatically?
- pc86 2y agoThe idea of transferring registration from one student to another without input from the university is bananas to me. But only slightly more stupid than not having waitlists which is the only reason that exists in the first place. My alma mater let people register in descending order of number of completed credits with a C or better (e.g. 2.0), and then GPA, in waves. Same with dorm sign ups which were required for everyone but seniors. It worked out great and professors always had enough slack to let special cases in if they felt compelled to. Making it random seems like a bad idea to me. It's "fair" only insofar as randomness is fair. For high-demand classes isn't it more "fair" that people who will graduate sooner and/or have done better in their classes thus far should have the first opportunity to get those classes?
- gorgoiler 2y agoI really like the point you make about randomness being bad as well, albeit in different ways. I’m not sure if I agree on the prior-grade route, not for freshmen at least but that does make a lot of sense for the later years. Overall, randomness, like democracy, might be the least worst option.
- IshKebab 2y agoIf they didn't want people trading registrations why not just... not allow them to trade reservations? I can't trade plane tickets, and that isn't because of some implied threat.
- nlawalker 2y agoThe "trading" is all out of band, the system only sees one person drop their registration and another person fill the slot. When someone drops a class, the opening becomes available immediately, so you coordinate a time well after the registration rush has died down for one person to click "drop" and the other to refresh the page and click "register". At least that's how it worked when I did it 20 years ago. It was relatively common in the Greek system not to "trade" a class for a class but rather a class for a few beers or the like: prior to registration, if you were an underclassman who really needed to get into a class next quarter that you knew filled up quickly, you'd find an upperclassman (who get access to the system earlier) who was eligible for the class you needed and wasn't full on credits to grab a slot, then a couple days before classes started, you'd have them drop and then grab it for yourself. At that time (early 2000s), polling bots weren't common, but there were rumors, so people doing this got more careful and actually sat next to each other with their laptops to coordinate the drop and add instead of just picking a time or date.
- 93po 2y ago