10 ms·

Someone tweeted $23 million .. your linked article (thank you for source) follows that with: City budget documents show the department’s more than $800 milli

Someone tweeted $23 million .. your linked article (thank you for source) follows that with: City budget documents show the department’s more than $800 million budget decreased by around $17 million compared to the previous budget cycle. Which makes the cuts less than %2.12 "Gutted" as a descripter seems extreme and the details that matter are whether these reductions simply trimmed fat, or denied something essential that would have made all the difference here.

segasaturn 2y ago
I'm not sure why the percentage matters? Whether it's 2% or 20%, it's still millions of dollars that could have been used here. More broadly, why are we cutting fire department budgets when wildfires are becoming more frequent, more intense and a year round phenomenon due to global warming? If you want to trim fat in the government there are much bigger targets to go after than an essential service like firefighting.
- Redoubts 2y ago
  Are you for real?
- vinay427 2y ago
  It doesn't seem to me that the GP comment is arguing for the cut in funding, but rather that 'gutted' may reasonably imply to many readers that a relatively significant portion of the budget was cut, which would be misleading in this case even if unintentional. The percentage helps put the number into context as at least I would not have an intuitive sense of expected or historical LAFD budget numbers.
  - segasaturn 2y ago
    Thank you for providing context, I edited the comment and changed "gutted" to "cut".
    - Redoubts 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - dgfitz 2y ago
        You know them enough to claim they generally are telling lies on a regular basis?
- nradov 2y ago
  Which other fat targets should local governments cut? Please be specific and quantitative.
  - segasaturn 2y ago
    Great question, lets take a look at the 2024-2025 budget sheet for LA City: https://cao.lacity.gov/budget/summary/2024-25%20Budget%20Summary%20-%20FINAL.pdf https://cao.lacity.gov/budget/summary/2024-25%20Budget%20Sum... (This PDF is great, props to whoever made it for making it so easy and accessible for normal people to read.) If you look at the pie chart on Page 11, you will see that by far the largest slice of the pie is the police budget. It's 45% of LA County's entire budget, totalling almost $2 billion. The LAPD's budget for one fiscal year is larger than most country's GDPs, yet crime is still rampant in Los Angeles. So that's the first place I would start. You could probably find $23 million sitting between the couch cushions at LAPD's headquarters.
    - JKCalhoun 2y ago
      Crime is rampant, cut the police budget. I hear ya'.
      - threatofrain 2y ago
        For $2B you could save a lot of lives even through the overpriced medical system. With a number this big, whatever you do with $2B has to be way better than saving those lives.
      - defrost 2y ago
        The question is whether quality of life can be improved in the city with a better allocation of the $2 billion dollars. Some should go to policing, yes, community policing should increase, working the stats should decrease, dedicated mental health professionals should be funded and replace a good number of police interactions, etc. This is a large and complex topic that deserves better than ankle deep engagement.
        2y ago
Twirrim 2y ago
Agreed. I don't see anything from a google search that suggests that they cut the number of firefighters, either. Hyperbolic statements like "gutted" are just meant to get the knee jerk, frothing at the mouth "retweet" kind of reaction, and it seems to be being successful at that.
darth_avocado 2y ago
The problem with that though is that the overall budget includes big ticket items like pensions and overtime. And cuts often directly are from live services. So even though it’s 2% of the overall budget, the cut could still be significant to the availability of firefighters and crucial things like response times.
- defrost 2y ago
  It appears we agree that the details of the cuts matters.
  - darth_avocado 2y ago
    More information since my last comment, at least half the budget cuts indeed impacted large scale disaster response capabilities. https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/california-wildfires/la-widlfires-budget-cuts-palisades-fire/3598438/?amp=1 https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/california-wildfires/la-w... > The budget reduction, approved last year by Mayor Karen Bass, was mostly absorbed by leaving many administrative jobs unfilled, but that left about $7 million that was cut from its overtime budget that was used for training, fire prevention, and other key functions. > The variable overtime hours, called "V-Hours" within the LAFD, were used to pay for FAA-mandated pilot training and helicopter coordination staffing for wildfire suppression, the memo said. "Without this funding, pilot compliance and readiness are jeopardized, and aerial firefighting capabilities are diminished," it said. "Changes to the Air Operations Section impact the Department's ability to adhere to current automatic and mutual aid agreements, provide air ambulance service, and quickly respond to woodland fires with water dropping helicopters." > The memo also highlighted other programs that would suffer under the cuts, including the Disaster Response Section, which funds the bulldozer teams that cut breaks and control lines around wildfires, and the Critical Incident Planning and Training Section, which develops plans for major emergencies.
    - defrost 2y ago
      I have a serious interest in emergency service budgets (in Western Australia, although personnel from here do travel to California to assist in our off season). So.. cheers for the update and context, that does highlight a 'loss' of $7 million in training alocation from an over 800 million budget. Do 'we' hold the state of California responsible here for allocating less overall, or the LA Fire Chief for perhaps not making the best use of what was allocated to them. I'm an outsider and I'm avoiding throwing shade, just highlighting the complexity of budget issues. If the blame goes to the state then attention should be paid to the page 6 water flow from revenue to expenditures - if Fire needs more then Police(?) must get less .. etc. Cali Budget: https://cao.lacity.gov/budget/summary/2024-25%20Budget%20Summary%20-%20FINAL.pdf https://cao.lacity.gov/budget/summary/2024-25%20Budget%20Sum... (page 11) $774 million went to salaries, $46 million to expenses.
Nifty3929 2y ago
Unfortunately that 2% was the part going to actual firefighters. The other 98% was administrative overhead. Both remaining firefighters are spread thin.
- defrost 2y ago
  From the budget papers (page 11) themselves, $774 million went to salaries, $46 million to expenses. https://cao.lacity.gov/budget/summary/2024-25%20Budget%20Summary%20-%20FINAL.pdf https://cao.lacity.gov/budget/summary/2024-25%20Budget%20Sum... Page 6 shows a water flow from revenues to expenditures.
CapricornNoble 2y ago
Regarding what was actually cut, do the cuts include the firefighting equipment sent to Ukraine? Sounds like that was mostly hoses and extra PPE, not major force-multiplier systems needed for this type of fire: https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/vital-la-firefighting-equipment-was-handed-ukraine-reports-show-americans-now-caught https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/vital-la-firefighting... And why is there apparently no water in the fire hydrants? Something about the reservoir not being refilled appropriately?
- defrost 2y ago
  > why is there apparently no water in the fire hydrants? They emptied the tanks fighting the fire. From the article in the GP comment: The Los Angeles Department of Water and Power in a Wednesday press conference refuted claims, including those made by Caruso, that water tanks in Pacific Palisades weren’t fully filled ahead of the fire. Departmental officials said the three tanks in the area were filled to capacity with around 1 million gallons of water each, but those supplies were tapped out by early Wednesday morning. “We ran out of water and the first tank about 4:45pm yesterday, we ran out of water on the second tank about 8:30pm and the third tank about 3am this morning,” said Janisse Quiñones, CEO of LADWP.
  - slavik81 2y ago
    Three million gallons is a few large swimming pools of water. Is there no way to draw from a larger source? For comparison, the Hollywood reservoir is 2.5 billion gallons.
    - defrost 2y ago
      > Is there no way to draw from a larger source? What are your thoughts on that question? I'm in Australia, while I cannot personally answer your question wrt these specific tanks I do imagine there was some means by which they were filled to the brim.
  - CapricornNoble 2y ago
    Thanks for the info. So is the take-away here that the tanks are under-specified? Should they have maybe 10x the total capacity? Have there been other indications over the years that tank capacity might be a problem with a large enough fire?
rayiner 2y ago
That’s on top of about 3.4% inflation from 2023 to 2024. So over a 5% cut in real terms.
- liontwist 2y ago
  Actually we don’t have that information. Often when governments talk about budget cuts they already are pricing it in real terms, or against projected budget increase. Unfortunately we have a news article reporting a tweet.
coding123 2y ago
Inflation in CA over the past 3 years is likely 50% (my personal estimation for necessities is over 100%) If you cut 2%, you're really cutting it by 52%. There's no way someone will want to work for peanuts. It has been gutted.

segasaturn 2y ago

I'm not sure why the percentage matters? Whether it's 2% or 20%, it's still millions of dollars that could have been used here. More broadly, why are we cutting fire department budgets when wildfires are becoming more frequent, more intense and a year round phenomenon due to global warming? If you want to trim fat in the government there are much bigger targets to go after than an essential service like firefighting.

Redoubts 2y ago
Are you for real?
vinay427 2y ago
It doesn't seem to me that the GP comment is arguing for the cut in funding, but rather that 'gutted' may reasonably imply to many readers that a relatively significant portion of the budget was cut, which would be misleading in this case even if unintentional. The percentage helps put the number into context as at least I would not have an intuitive sense of expected or historical LAFD budget numbers.
- segasaturn 2y ago
  Thank you for providing context, I edited the comment and changed "gutted" to "cut".
  - Redoubts 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - dgfitz 2y ago
      You know them enough to claim they generally are telling lies on a regular basis?
nradov 2y ago
Which other fat targets should local governments cut? Please be specific and quantitative.
- segasaturn 2y ago
  Great question, lets take a look at the 2024-2025 budget sheet for LA City: https://cao.lacity.gov/budget/summary/2024-25%20Budget%20Summary%20-%20FINAL.pdf https://cao.lacity.gov/budget/summary/2024-25%20Budget%20Sum... (This PDF is great, props to whoever made it for making it so easy and accessible for normal people to read.) If you look at the pie chart on Page 11, you will see that by far the largest slice of the pie is the police budget. It's 45% of LA County's entire budget, totalling almost $2 billion. The LAPD's budget for one fiscal year is larger than most country's GDPs, yet crime is still rampant in Los Angeles. So that's the first place I would start. You could probably find $23 million sitting between the couch cushions at LAPD's headquarters.
  - JKCalhoun 2y ago
    Crime is rampant, cut the police budget. I hear ya'.
    - threatofrain 2y ago
      For $2B you could save a lot of lives even through the overpriced medical system. With a number this big, whatever you do with $2B has to be way better than saving those lives.
    - defrost 2y ago
      The question is whether quality of life can be improved in the city with a better allocation of the $2 billion dollars. Some should go to policing, yes, community policing should increase, working the stats should decrease, dedicated mental health professionals should be funded and replace a good number of police interactions, etc. This is a large and complex topic that deserves better than ankle deep engagement.
      - 2y ago

Twirrim 2y ago

Agreed. I don't see anything from a google search that suggests that they cut the number of firefighters, either. Hyperbolic statements like "gutted" are just meant to get the knee jerk, frothing at the mouth "retweet" kind of reaction, and it seems to be being successful at that.

darth_avocado 2y ago

The problem with that though is that the overall budget includes big ticket items like pensions and overtime. And cuts often directly are from live services. So even though it’s 2% of the overall budget, the cut could still be significant to the availability of firefighters and crucial things like response times.

defrost 2y ago
It appears we agree that the details of the cuts matters.
- darth_avocado 2y ago
  More information since my last comment, at least half the budget cuts indeed impacted large scale disaster response capabilities. https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/california-wildfires/la-widlfires-budget-cuts-palisades-fire/3598438/?amp=1 https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/california-wildfires/la-w... > The budget reduction, approved last year by Mayor Karen Bass, was mostly absorbed by leaving many administrative jobs unfilled, but that left about $7 million that was cut from its overtime budget that was used for training, fire prevention, and other key functions. > The variable overtime hours, called "V-Hours" within the LAFD, were used to pay for FAA-mandated pilot training and helicopter coordination staffing for wildfire suppression, the memo said. "Without this funding, pilot compliance and readiness are jeopardized, and aerial firefighting capabilities are diminished," it said. "Changes to the Air Operations Section impact the Department's ability to adhere to current automatic and mutual aid agreements, provide air ambulance service, and quickly respond to woodland fires with water dropping helicopters." > The memo also highlighted other programs that would suffer under the cuts, including the Disaster Response Section, which funds the bulldozer teams that cut breaks and control lines around wildfires, and the Critical Incident Planning and Training Section, which develops plans for major emergencies.
  - defrost 2y ago
    I have a serious interest in emergency service budgets (in Western Australia, although personnel from here do travel to California to assist in our off season). So.. cheers for the update and context, that does highlight a 'loss' of $7 million in training alocation from an over 800 million budget. Do 'we' hold the state of California responsible here for allocating less overall, or the LA Fire Chief for perhaps not making the best use of what was allocated to them. I'm an outsider and I'm avoiding throwing shade, just highlighting the complexity of budget issues. If the blame goes to the state then attention should be paid to the page 6 water flow from revenue to expenditures - if Fire needs more then Police(?) must get less .. etc. Cali Budget: https://cao.lacity.gov/budget/summary/2024-25%20Budget%20Summary%20-%20FINAL.pdf https://cao.lacity.gov/budget/summary/2024-25%20Budget%20Sum... (page 11) $774 million went to salaries, $46 million to expenses.

Nifty3929 2y ago

Unfortunately that 2% was the part going to actual firefighters. The other 98% was administrative overhead. Both remaining firefighters are spread thin.

defrost 2y ago
From the budget papers (page 11) themselves, $774 million went to salaries, $46 million to expenses. https://cao.lacity.gov/budget/summary/2024-25%20Budget%20Summary%20-%20FINAL.pdf https://cao.lacity.gov/budget/summary/2024-25%20Budget%20Sum... Page 6 shows a water flow from revenues to expenditures.

CapricornNoble 2y ago

Regarding what was actually cut, do the cuts include the firefighting equipment sent to Ukraine? Sounds like that was mostly hoses and extra PPE, not major force-multiplier systems needed for this type of fire: https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/vital-la-firefighting-equipment-was-handed-ukraine-reports-show-americans-now-caught https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/vital-la-firefighting... And why is there apparently no water in the fire hydrants? Something about the reservoir not being refilled appropriately?

defrost 2y ago
> why is there apparently no water in the fire hydrants? They emptied the tanks fighting the fire. From the article in the GP comment: The Los Angeles Department of Water and Power in a Wednesday press conference refuted claims, including those made by Caruso, that water tanks in Pacific Palisades weren’t fully filled ahead of the fire. Departmental officials said the three tanks in the area were filled to capacity with around 1 million gallons of water each, but those supplies were tapped out by early Wednesday morning. “We ran out of water and the first tank about 4:45pm yesterday, we ran out of water on the second tank about 8:30pm and the third tank about 3am this morning,” said Janisse Quiñones, CEO of LADWP.
- slavik81 2y ago
  Three million gallons is a few large swimming pools of water. Is there no way to draw from a larger source? For comparison, the Hollywood reservoir is 2.5 billion gallons.
  - defrost 2y ago
    > Is there no way to draw from a larger source? What are your thoughts on that question? I'm in Australia, while I cannot personally answer your question wrt these specific tanks I do imagine there was some means by which they were filled to the brim.
- CapricornNoble 2y ago
  Thanks for the info. So is the take-away here that the tanks are under-specified? Should they have maybe 10x the total capacity? Have there been other indications over the years that tank capacity might be a problem with a large enough fire?

rayiner 2y ago

That’s on top of about 3.4% inflation from 2023 to 2024. So over a 5% cut in real terms.

liontwist 2y ago
Actually we don’t have that information. Often when governments talk about budget cuts they already are pricing it in real terms, or against projected budget increase. Unfortunately we have a news article reporting a tweet.

coding123 2y ago

Inflation in CA over the past 3 years is likely 50% (my personal estimation for necessities is over 100%) If you cut 2%, you're really cutting it by 52%. There's no way someone will want to work for peanuts. It has been gutted.