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Los Angeles Fire Department funding was cut by over $23M only a few months ago. The fires are currently being fought by a skeleton crew of remaining fire fighte

Los Angeles Fire Department funding was cut by over $23M only a few months ago. The fires are currently being fought by a skeleton crew of remaining fire fighters and volunteers. Can't say if that funding would have prevented it, but cutting it definitely has not helped. Source: https://www.politico.com/news/2025/01/08/los-angeles-fires-mayor-karen-bass-handling-criticized-00197137 https://www.politico.com/news/2025/01/08/los-angeles-fires-m... Edit: Changing a word, "gutted" -> "cut"

timeon 2y ago
I would be more concerned about Climate Change. No amount of money will help.
- thepasswordis 2y ago
  Never allowing the forest to burn, which is a part of its natural cycle, is a form a drastic climate change for the forest. Proper management of the forest means selecting a time to do these burns. If we don't select a time, mother nature will select one for us. Yes, global temperature rise is real, and could potentially have had some effect on the fire. Completely disrupting the natural cycle of the forest is a much bigger deal.
  - sgustard 2y ago
    I was curious to learn why we "never allow the forest to burn", given that Cal Fire for example has a whole department of Prescribed Fire. Sounds like the problem is lawyers and property owners: > One of the primary obstacles to increasing the pace and scale of beneficial fire use in California is the difficulty for practitioners to obtain adequate liability coverage, although the rates and losses from escapes are very low. https://www.fire.ca.gov/what-we-do/natural-resource-management/prescribed-fire https://www.fire.ca.gov/what-we-do/natural-resource-manageme...
    - baq 2y ago
      > Sounds like the problem is lawyers and property owners: Some of them might change their mind now that they’re owners of some acres of charcoal. You cannot not choose a time - it’ll get chosen for you. Schedule should be known, cost included in taxes, risks known when property was acquired, liabilities limited in state or federal regulation. Weather doesn’t care about lawyers.
  - nradov 2y ago
    These fires are mostly burning chaparral, not forest. Better forest management is a good idea in general but not relevant to this article.
defrost 2y ago
Someone tweeted $23 million .. your linked article (thank you for source) follows that with: City budget documents show the department’s more than $800 million budget decreased by around $17 million compared to the previous budget cycle. Which makes the cuts less than %2.12 "Gutted" as a descripter seems extreme and the details that matter are whether these reductions simply trimmed fat, or denied something essential that would have made all the difference here.
- segasaturn 2y ago
  I'm not sure why the percentage matters? Whether it's 2% or 20%, it's still millions of dollars that could have been used here. More broadly, why are we cutting fire department budgets when wildfires are becoming more frequent, more intense and a year round phenomenon due to global warming? If you want to trim fat in the government there are much bigger targets to go after than an essential service like firefighting.
  - Redoubts 2y ago
    Are you for real?
  - vinay427 2y ago
    It doesn't seem to me that the GP comment is arguing for the cut in funding, but rather that 'gutted' may reasonably imply to many readers that a relatively significant portion of the budget was cut, which would be misleading in this case even if unintentional. The percentage helps put the number into context as at least I would not have an intuitive sense of expected or historical LAFD budget numbers.
    - segasaturn 2y ago
      Thank you for providing context, I edited the comment and changed "gutted" to "cut".
      - Redoubts 2y ago
sneak 2y ago
For reference the LAPD budget is $175 million per month. The fire budget was cut by $17.6 million for the year, the 23M cut was proposed. The police budget was increased by $126M for the year. For context, the LAFD annual budget is $820M and the LAPD annual budget is $2140M.
ChrisClark 2y ago
2% means gutted? 2% less funding means only a skeleton crew is left?
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  Depends: did it have a lot of excess capacity before the cuts?
  - Redoubts 2y ago
    That’s wholly immaterial to the word choice. Come on.
    - llamaimperative 2y ago
      "Gutted" sure, but yes it's absolutely possible to go from functional staffing to totally non-functional with a 2% budget reduction depending on the org's structure and where the budget cuts come from.
- segasaturn 2y ago
  The city of Los Angeles and the Mayor have been requesting volunteers from the public, due to lack of manpower. According to their website [1] the salary for firefighters in Los Angeles is $85,000 to $125,000 (rounded). Assuming the average ($105,000), that amount of funding could have paid 161 firefighters salaries for the entire year, not including benefits (unsure how that is priced in), and much more than that if they were part-time which most of the force are. https://www.joinlafd.org/salary-and-benefits https://www.joinlafd.org/salary-and-benefits
  - kristjansson 2y ago
    > The city of Los Angeles and the Mayor have been requesting volunteers from the public That's not true. The call last night was for all off-duty firefighters to report their availability, not for members of the public. Clearly LAFD / LACFD need more manpower, but there's more then enough merit to make that case without misinformation.
ravenstine 2y ago
I really don't understand how SoCal and California residents in general find the the state's response to wildfires in the last decade to be acceptable. Not only have fire departments seen cutbacks, but so has the forestry needed for preventative measures. What really bugs me is what I find to be a disinterest and lack of belief in vastly expanding the fleet of water dropping aircraft. Letting fires burn to the extent that they have been isn't cheap, to put it lightly. Somehow, a state that is one of the largest economies in the world can't or won't expand its aerial response such that fires of the scale we are seeing become a thing of the past. With satellite technology, it should be possible to identify wildfires as they begin and immediately deploy hundreds if not 1000+ planes to dump water from the Pacific and reservoirs, while drones go ahead of them to confirm that an out-of-control fire is actually in progress. I can anticipate being told this is not possible or too expensive, which is what everyone I know seems to believe, but I don't buy it. If anyone ever runs for governor and makes my proposal their single issue platform, I will vote for them regardless of political party or whether it is truly feasible up to the extent that I am imagining. Fuck wildfires.
- cameldrv 2y ago
  Buying more firefighting equipment is like building a dam higher and higher every year as the reservoir fills up, instead of letting it drain out gradually. The natural cycle in California is for there to be periodic fires, but due to the policy of suppression, they haven't happened for 70 years or more, so now when they do, they are these massive infernos. Better and better fire suppression tech over the years that enables a quicker response, like aircraft, satellite monitoring, remote video cameras, etc, has just served to make the problem worse in the long run.
  - nradov 2y ago
    That's not quite what's going on with these particular fires. They weren't caused by excessive fire suppression. Most of the terrain involved is chaparral rather than forest. The previous two years had relatively high rainfall which caused a lot of fast brush growth. This season has had much less rainfall so everything dried out, creating tinderbox conditions. In those areas we have to rely more on clearing defensible space around structures. https://youtu.be/gunenpZ5JuE https://youtu.be/gunenpZ5JuE The forest management issues are valid but apply more to other parts of the state.
crystal_revenge 2y ago
> by a skeleton crew of remaining fire fighters and volunteers. I think you're missing a major contributor which is California's prison population [0]. Prisoners getting paid around $3-$5 a day make up ~1/3 of California's wildfire fighting service. Maybe you consider them to be "volunteers" but that seems to be missing some important context. 0. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-history-of-californias-inmate-firefighter-program-180980662/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-history-of-califo...
- rvnx 2y ago
  (Very interesting info you found!) It seems to be a great way to reengage in the community and feel useful as a human being (and see people being grateful to you). Not so sure the $5 are the driver here. Better than watching a cellmate all day.
  - giraffe_lady 2y ago
    I wonder if they have favorable consideration when applying to fire departments after they get out.
    - rurp 2y ago
      It's often the opposite, where their conviction bars them from even applying for a job.
    - Roguelazer 2y ago
      As I understand it, no. Most counties require that you have an EMT license to be a firefighter, and many people with conviction histories are barred from getting EMT licenses (Title 22 § 100214.3(c)). There was a bill a few years ago that allowed CalFire specifically to hire people as firefighters with an alternate credential that doesn't have a blanket-ban on people with conviction histories.
  - timewizard 2y ago
    > Not so sure the $5 are the driver here. There aren't a lot of opportunities to earn money in prison. Having money in prison is important. Although having work time credits are more important as those earn you an early release. > Better than watching a cellmate all day. No one is doing that anyways.
mistrial9 2y ago
this is disinformation. CalFIRE at the State of California had a 10x budget increase in the 2020 time frame under Gov Newsom. LA County has budgets larger than small countries. Fire suppression is a priority. These fires have spread quickly and it is true that fire fighters are spread thin.
- dawnerd 2y ago
  Exactly. There's only so much they can do. They couldn't fly aircraft. Spread to a huge area rapidly, the area isn't even that easy to get in/out of on a good day. Add in another couple fires that also rapidly spread and it really doesn't matter how much money they had, you can't just bring on firefighters that fast. I'm glad to see all the aircraft are working the fires and hopefully they'll make some good progress before night.
Rebelgecko 2y ago
This is slightly misleading because it doesn't take into account the extra funding they got when contract negotiations finished
UncleOxidant 2y ago
> Patrick Soon-Shiong, the billionaire owner of the Los Angeles Times, slammed Bass in an X post claiming the mayor slashed the Los Angeles Fire Department’s budget, despite the high risk of wildfires in the region, and raised questions about reports that some fire hydrants in the Pacific Palisades had run dry. It's kind of rich that a local billionaire would complain about this. I'm going to guess that the $23M was cut due to budget shortfalls. Maybe if the billionaires and multi-millionaires in the area were willing to pay their fair share that wouldn't have happened.
- dmitrygr 2y ago
  [flagged]
- baggy_trough 2y ago
  "fair share" is always defined as more than they pay now, I've noticed.
  - bdangubic 2y ago
    lol exactly
  - dgfitz 2y ago
    Seems like he knows his way around the financial system: https://www.healthcareitnews.com/news/politico-uncovers-more-funding-indiscretions-patrick-soon-shiong https://www.healthcareitnews.com/news/politico-uncovers-more...
  - sahila 2y ago
    Is your opinion that extremely wealthy don't try to reduce their tax share as much as possible, either through clever accounting on their current year taxes or by influencing politicians/policies to lower their taxes directly? Why do most middle class earners pay more than their millionaire and billionaire counterparts as a percentage? Sure you might say W2 tax rate is higher than capital gains, but why is that the case?
    - 2y ago
culi 2y ago
Interesting that at the same time the police department's budget increased by $126 million
jeffbee 2y ago
There is no meaningful sense in which firefighters are "fighting" this fire, nor could they.
napierzaza 2y ago
[dead]
jillesvangurp 2y ago
It's of course terrible what's happening in LA. But we're talking about a rich area in a rich city in a state that is very rich and I just read an article about some pretty famous people that I've heard off losing their houses that collectively probably have a net worth hundreds of millions (or individually in some cases) that lost their houses. They'll be fine, financially at least. You'd struggle to find a richer place in the world. Some things that crossed my mind: - Affected people probably spend way more on personal security, lawyers, dog grooming, plastic surgery, etc. than on fire safety in that area. I.e. all the extravagant nonsense that spoiled millionaires in LA and these areas in LA specifically are famous for spending their money on. I watched the new beverly hills cop movie on Netflix over the summer (not amazing) that makes fun of that specifically. - Given the string of wild fires specifically in LA in the last few years, how is it that they are not more prepared for this and what genius decided that now was a good moment to cut spending on the fire department? And who voted that clown into office? Oh wait that would be the same people that live there that donate money to all sorts of causes by the bucket load. That doesn't help the people there right now. And I'm sure there are some people caught up in this that are less well off, which totally sucks. But I'm sure charity events will be organized and I'm sure there will be quite a few millionaires attending and performing at these events. But my point is that they don't exactly have a lot of excuses for not organizing the most awesome, best funded and equipped fire department in the world. Also, on the prevention side there is probably a thing or two that could have been done to e.g. clear out areas of bone dry bushes, wood, etc. that are well known fire hazards. I don't think there's a lot of ignorance on that front that needs addressing.
- this15testing 2y ago
  also, it has been known for quite some time how damaging the near total reliance on cars and the associated infrastructure at that scale is. If you do absolutely nothing about climate change when you have the most resources to do so, then I cannot feel sorry about anything that's happening.
jeffbee 2y ago
Your source debunked itself a few hours later. https://www.politico.com/news/2025/01/08/wildfire-threatens-karen-bass-extended-honeymoon-00197228 https://www.politico.com/news/2025/01/08/wildfire-threatens-... This whole subthread should be printed out, preserved, exhibited in museums about the spread of misinformation among gullible Silicon Valley commenters, but also deleted from this site. It's an embarrassment.

timeon 2y ago

I would be more concerned about Climate Change. No amount of money will help.

thepasswordis 2y ago
Never allowing the forest to burn, which is a part of its natural cycle, is a form a drastic climate change for the forest. Proper management of the forest means selecting a time to do these burns. If we don't select a time, mother nature will select one for us. Yes, global temperature rise is real, and could potentially have had some effect on the fire. Completely disrupting the natural cycle of the forest is a much bigger deal.
- sgustard 2y ago
  I was curious to learn why we "never allow the forest to burn", given that Cal Fire for example has a whole department of Prescribed Fire. Sounds like the problem is lawyers and property owners: > One of the primary obstacles to increasing the pace and scale of beneficial fire use in California is the difficulty for practitioners to obtain adequate liability coverage, although the rates and losses from escapes are very low. https://www.fire.ca.gov/what-we-do/natural-resource-management/prescribed-fire https://www.fire.ca.gov/what-we-do/natural-resource-manageme...
  - baq 2y ago
    > Sounds like the problem is lawyers and property owners: Some of them might change their mind now that they’re owners of some acres of charcoal. You cannot not choose a time - it’ll get chosen for you. Schedule should be known, cost included in taxes, risks known when property was acquired, liabilities limited in state or federal regulation. Weather doesn’t care about lawyers.
- nradov 2y ago
  These fires are mostly burning chaparral, not forest. Better forest management is a good idea in general but not relevant to this article.

defrost 2y ago

Someone tweeted $23 million .. your linked article (thank you for source) follows that with: City budget documents show the department’s more than $800 million budget decreased by around $17 million compared to the previous budget cycle. Which makes the cuts less than %2.12 "Gutted" as a descripter seems extreme and the details that matter are whether these reductions simply trimmed fat, or denied something essential that would have made all the difference here.

segasaturn 2y ago
I'm not sure why the percentage matters? Whether it's 2% or 20%, it's still millions of dollars that could have been used here. More broadly, why are we cutting fire department budgets when wildfires are becoming more frequent, more intense and a year round phenomenon due to global warming? If you want to trim fat in the government there are much bigger targets to go after than an essential service like firefighting.
- Redoubts 2y ago
  Are you for real?
- vinay427 2y ago
  It doesn't seem to me that the GP comment is arguing for the cut in funding, but rather that 'gutted' may reasonably imply to many readers that a relatively significant portion of the budget was cut, which would be misleading in this case even if unintentional. The percentage helps put the number into context as at least I would not have an intuitive sense of expected or historical LAFD budget numbers.
  - segasaturn 2y ago
    Thank you for providing context, I edited the comment and changed "gutted" to "cut".
    - Redoubts 2y ago

sneak 2y ago

For reference the LAPD budget is $175 million per month. The fire budget was cut by $17.6 million for the year, the 23M cut was proposed. The police budget was increased by $126M for the year. For context, the LAFD annual budget is $820M and the LAPD annual budget is $2140M.

ChrisClark 2y ago

2% means gutted? 2% less funding means only a skeleton crew is left?

llamaimperative 2y ago
Depends: did it have a lot of excess capacity before the cuts?
- Redoubts 2y ago
  That’s wholly immaterial to the word choice. Come on.
  - llamaimperative 2y ago
    "Gutted" sure, but yes it's absolutely possible to go from functional staffing to totally non-functional with a 2% budget reduction depending on the org's structure and where the budget cuts come from.
segasaturn 2y ago
The city of Los Angeles and the Mayor have been requesting volunteers from the public, due to lack of manpower. According to their website [1] the salary for firefighters in Los Angeles is $85,000 to $125,000 (rounded). Assuming the average ($105,000), that amount of funding could have paid 161 firefighters salaries for the entire year, not including benefits (unsure how that is priced in), and much more than that if they were part-time which most of the force are. https://www.joinlafd.org/salary-and-benefits https://www.joinlafd.org/salary-and-benefits
- kristjansson 2y ago
  > The city of Los Angeles and the Mayor have been requesting volunteers from the public That's not true. The call last night was for all off-duty firefighters to report their availability, not for members of the public. Clearly LAFD / LACFD need more manpower, but there's more then enough merit to make that case without misinformation.

ravenstine 2y ago

I really don't understand how SoCal and California residents in general find the the state's response to wildfires in the last decade to be acceptable. Not only have fire departments seen cutbacks, but so has the forestry needed for preventative measures. What really bugs me is what I find to be a disinterest and lack of belief in vastly expanding the fleet of water dropping aircraft. Letting fires burn to the extent that they have been isn't cheap, to put it lightly. Somehow, a state that is one of the largest economies in the world can't or won't expand its aerial response such that fires of the scale we are seeing become a thing of the past. With satellite technology, it should be possible to identify wildfires as they begin and immediately deploy hundreds if not 1000+ planes to dump water from the Pacific and reservoirs, while drones go ahead of them to confirm that an out-of-control fire is actually in progress. I can anticipate being told this is not possible or too expensive, which is what everyone I know seems to believe, but I don't buy it. If anyone ever runs for governor and makes my proposal their single issue platform, I will vote for them regardless of political party or whether it is truly feasible up to the extent that I am imagining. Fuck wildfires.

cameldrv 2y ago
Buying more firefighting equipment is like building a dam higher and higher every year as the reservoir fills up, instead of letting it drain out gradually. The natural cycle in California is for there to be periodic fires, but due to the policy of suppression, they haven't happened for 70 years or more, so now when they do, they are these massive infernos. Better and better fire suppression tech over the years that enables a quicker response, like aircraft, satellite monitoring, remote video cameras, etc, has just served to make the problem worse in the long run.
- nradov 2y ago
  That's not quite what's going on with these particular fires. They weren't caused by excessive fire suppression. Most of the terrain involved is chaparral rather than forest. The previous two years had relatively high rainfall which caused a lot of fast brush growth. This season has had much less rainfall so everything dried out, creating tinderbox conditions. In those areas we have to rely more on clearing defensible space around structures. https://youtu.be/gunenpZ5JuE https://youtu.be/gunenpZ5JuE The forest management issues are valid but apply more to other parts of the state.

crystal_revenge 2y ago

> by a skeleton crew of remaining fire fighters and volunteers. I think you're missing a major contributor which is California's prison population [0]. Prisoners getting paid around $3-$5 a day make up ~1/3 of California's wildfire fighting service. Maybe you consider them to be "volunteers" but that seems to be missing some important context. 0. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-history-of-californias-inmate-firefighter-program-180980662/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-history-of-califo...

rvnx 2y ago
(Very interesting info you found!) It seems to be a great way to reengage in the community and feel useful as a human being (and see people being grateful to you). Not so sure the $5 are the driver here. Better than watching a cellmate all day.
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  I wonder if they have favorable consideration when applying to fire departments after they get out.
  - rurp 2y ago
    It's often the opposite, where their conviction bars them from even applying for a job.
  - Roguelazer 2y ago
    As I understand it, no. Most counties require that you have an EMT license to be a firefighter, and many people with conviction histories are barred from getting EMT licenses (Title 22 § 100214.3(c)). There was a bill a few years ago that allowed CalFire specifically to hire people as firefighters with an alternate credential that doesn't have a blanket-ban on people with conviction histories.
- timewizard 2y ago
  > Not so sure the $5 are the driver here. There aren't a lot of opportunities to earn money in prison. Having money in prison is important. Although having work time credits are more important as those earn you an early release. > Better than watching a cellmate all day. No one is doing that anyways.

mistrial9 2y ago

this is disinformation. CalFIRE at the State of California had a 10x budget increase in the 2020 time frame under Gov Newsom. LA County has budgets larger than small countries. Fire suppression is a priority. These fires have spread quickly and it is true that fire fighters are spread thin.

dawnerd 2y ago
Exactly. There's only so much they can do. They couldn't fly aircraft. Spread to a huge area rapidly, the area isn't even that easy to get in/out of on a good day. Add in another couple fires that also rapidly spread and it really doesn't matter how much money they had, you can't just bring on firefighters that fast. I'm glad to see all the aircraft are working the fires and hopefully they'll make some good progress before night.

Rebelgecko 2y ago

This is slightly misleading because it doesn't take into account the extra funding they got when contract negotiations finished

UncleOxidant 2y ago

> Patrick Soon-Shiong, the billionaire owner of the Los Angeles Times, slammed Bass in an X post claiming the mayor slashed the Los Angeles Fire Department’s budget, despite the high risk of wildfires in the region, and raised questions about reports that some fire hydrants in the Pacific Palisades had run dry. It's kind of rich that a local billionaire would complain about this. I'm going to guess that the $23M was cut due to budget shortfalls. Maybe if the billionaires and multi-millionaires in the area were willing to pay their fair share that wouldn't have happened.

dmitrygr 2y ago
[flagged]
baggy_trough 2y ago
"fair share" is always defined as more than they pay now, I've noticed.
- bdangubic 2y ago
  lol exactly
- dgfitz 2y ago
  Seems like he knows his way around the financial system: https://www.healthcareitnews.com/news/politico-uncovers-more-funding-indiscretions-patrick-soon-shiong https://www.healthcareitnews.com/news/politico-uncovers-more...
- sahila 2y ago
  Is your opinion that extremely wealthy don't try to reduce their tax share as much as possible, either through clever accounting on their current year taxes or by influencing politicians/policies to lower their taxes directly? Why do most middle class earners pay more than their millionaire and billionaire counterparts as a percentage? Sure you might say W2 tax rate is higher than capital gains, but why is that the case?
  - 2y ago

culi 2y ago

Interesting that at the same time the police department's budget increased by $126 million

jeffbee 2y ago

There is no meaningful sense in which firefighters are "fighting" this fire, nor could they.

napierzaza 2y ago

[dead]

jillesvangurp 2y ago

It's of course terrible what's happening in LA. But we're talking about a rich area in a rich city in a state that is very rich and I just read an article about some pretty famous people that I've heard off losing their houses that collectively probably have a net worth hundreds of millions (or individually in some cases) that lost their houses. They'll be fine, financially at least. You'd struggle to find a richer place in the world. Some things that crossed my mind: - Affected people probably spend way more on personal security, lawyers, dog grooming, plastic surgery, etc. than on fire safety in that area. I.e. all the extravagant nonsense that spoiled millionaires in LA and these areas in LA specifically are famous for spending their money on. I watched the new beverly hills cop movie on Netflix over the summer (not amazing) that makes fun of that specifically. - Given the string of wild fires specifically in LA in the last few years, how is it that they are not more prepared for this and what genius decided that now was a good moment to cut spending on the fire department? And who voted that clown into office? Oh wait that would be the same people that live there that donate money to all sorts of causes by the bucket load. That doesn't help the people there right now. And I'm sure there are some people caught up in this that are less well off, which totally sucks. But I'm sure charity events will be organized and I'm sure there will be quite a few millionaires attending and performing at these events. But my point is that they don't exactly have a lot of excuses for not organizing the most awesome, best funded and equipped fire department in the world. Also, on the prevention side there is probably a thing or two that could have been done to e.g. clear out areas of bone dry bushes, wood, etc. that are well known fire hazards. I don't think there's a lot of ignorance on that front that needs addressing.

this15testing 2y ago
also, it has been known for quite some time how damaging the near total reliance on cars and the associated infrastructure at that scale is. If you do absolutely nothing about climate change when you have the most resources to do so, then I cannot feel sorry about anything that's happening.

jeffbee 2y ago

Your source debunked itself a few hours later. https://www.politico.com/news/2025/01/08/wildfire-threatens-karen-bass-extended-honeymoon-00197228 https://www.politico.com/news/2025/01/08/wildfire-threatens-... This whole subthread should be printed out, preserved, exhibited in museums about the spread of misinformation among gullible Silicon Valley commenters, but also deleted from this site. It's an embarrassment.