5 ms·

> the panels simply plug into power sockets Is there something about German electrical systems that let's this just work? I feel like everything I've read abou

by goda90 2y ago

> the panels simply plug into power sockets Is there something about German electrical systems that let's this just work? I feel like everything I've read about solar for the US isn't this simple.

dx034 2y ago
It would work anywhere, but only with small amounts of current. In Germany the max is set to 800W. Won’t affect the grid much and standard wiring can easily handle 800W flowing „backwards“. Germany has many rented apartments compared to eg the US. If you own a house, those systems make little sense. But for Germany, where many rent an apartment, it’s attractive for many. And the only way for many to ever profit from solar.
khafra 2y ago
It would work with American electric systems; it's simply illegal to do that (ostensibly for safety reasons, actually for protectionist reasons (ok, maybe also because utilities don't want to build out grid-scale batteries and other smoothing solutions)).
- InDubioProRubio 2y ago
  Which could be privatized too, if the incentives were provided. The safety reasons are actually valid. You can not safely turn off a power-topology with a N-to-N setup. The providers just cant life without that power..
- WJW 2y ago
  The safety reasons are real though: when linesmen need to do work on the grid, it has to be depowered. This used to be easy to accomplish: just make sure the line is switched off from at the substation and you can be reasonably certain that the line is safe to work on. If Joe Random decides to send his solar power directly into the depowered grid, that would be a Bad Time for the worker involved. "Protectionist reasons" sounds nice to people who already hate big corporations, but it doesn't make a lot of sense. When the grid is down, it's down. There is no revenue to protect at that point. The actual thing they might want to protect against is big solar farms competing away revenue from fossil fuel plants, but as you'll notice such solar farms are entirely legal.
  - Gasp0de 2y ago
    Well the inverters with which these solar systems work switch off within milliseconds when grid power goes down, so the problem you correctly identified is taken care of. There are also multiple redundant components to ensure this behavior.
  - icehawk 2y ago
    > If Joe Random decides to send his solar power directly into the depowered grid, that would be a Bad Time for the worker involved. You need a special inverter for it to not blow up when the grid is running, and even the cheap $80 grid tie inverters on amazon do this sort of checking before activating.
  - potato3732842 2y ago
    >The safety reasons are real though: when linesmen need to do work on the grid, it has to be depowered. This used to be easy to accomplish: just make sure the line is switched off from at the substation and you can be reasonably certain that the line is safe to work on. If Joe Random decides to send his solar power directly into the depowered grid, that would be a Bad Time for the worker involved. <yawn> This argument again? People have been saying the same thing about backup generators forever and it's just not true in practice. From the POV of your solar or generator the resistance of the neighborhood is basically a short. Breakers will pop if generator and/or or voltage will collapse if solar. If you are out of sync and the grid comes back your hardware will be what leaves the chat, not the grid's Linesmen are trained to ground their work first because the far bigger hazard to them is miscommunication among upstream coworkers. Better to liquify fuses or hardware than people when that happens. If "everyone" had solar or a back fed generator it could be a problem but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. And that bridge would be crossed procedurally on the utility/linesman side (grounding your work mostly already does but more would likely be desired). They're not stupid. They're not gonna trust their lives to the assumption that the hardware upstream and downstream is going to do what they expect. >"Protectionist reasons" sounds nice to people who already hate big corporations, but it doesn't make a lot of sense. When the grid is down, it's down. There is no revenue to protect at that point. The actual thing they might want to protect against is big solar farms competing away revenue from fossil fuel plants, but as you'll notice such solar farms are entirely legal. The protectionist angle is that if generation was more local rather than regional there would be much more competition because it would become more economically realistic for municipalities to strike out on their own and/or parter with each other and do so in order to shake off existing overpriced or incompetent utilities.
Szpadel 2y ago
AFAIK all inverters (except off-grid models) will refuse to work without mains power. it's also technical requirement, you have to synchronize to existing sine wave. the main reason such device is bad idea is that you might have power at exposed pins. In this case inverter will not produce any power until you already plugged into socket.
Toutouxc 2y ago
Must be a gross simplification. The nearest power socket is not the right place for the decision where the power goes. You probably want all your sockets supplied with your own electricity, but not the outside world (which makes your distribution board the right place to connect anything). I have a friend who works for the grid operator in our country. He says that if you, even for a few seconds, become a power generator (as opposed to a load) without being authorized to, they'll notice and there will be an investigation. edit: Sounds like they do just plug in into the power outlet, and you're allowed to supply power back to the grid. Which makes sense, and is very different from what we have one country over.
- magnetometer 2y ago
  [dead]
Tade0 2y ago
You need a two-way meter, so you'll have to communicate with your power company to get one installed beforehand, but otherwise it's as inconsequential to the grid as plugging in a vacuum cleaner or running a microwave oven.
nuancebydefault 2y ago
In fact there is very little difference between plugging the AC side of a single panel into a socket and connecting a set 'the proper way' to your distribution panel. The only difference is overcurrent protection and maybe cable section size. But for single panels this could be a non-issue. Source: i installed a set of solar panels myself.
- marcosdumay 2y ago
  Well, that's if you have a single-phase installation. But that overcurrent protection is huge. Even more if your house walls are flammable.
dghughes 2y ago
Here in rural Canada people with generators would often plug into a home outlet just a regular plug during a power outage. Not a good idea and depends on the circuit path if fuse or breakers. It's 120V AC to AC 60Hz anyway. Hey if it keeps power on, allows you to start the furnace, and not freeze, or keep pipes from bursting it will work.
Propelloni 2y ago
No, there is nothing special technologywise, it's a regulation thing. The thinking goes something like this: The million or two of balcony power plants installed in Germany help the installer's energy bill but the, let's be generous, 2 GWh per year produced are only a drop in the overall bucket, most local produced excess will not even leave your street before consumed. Furthermore, consider that Germany alone produces around 600 TWh of electrical energy per year. But Germany's grid is part of the European grid and yeah, 2 GWh don't even move the needle.

by goda90 2y ago

> the panels simply plug into power sockets Is there something about German electrical systems that let's this just work? I feel like everything I've read about solar for the US isn't this simple.

dx034 2y ago

It would work anywhere, but only with small amounts of current. In Germany the max is set to 800W. Won’t affect the grid much and standard wiring can easily handle 800W flowing „backwards“. Germany has many rented apartments compared to eg the US. If you own a house, those systems make little sense. But for Germany, where many rent an apartment, it’s attractive for many. And the only way for many to ever profit from solar.

khafra 2y ago

It would work with American electric systems; it's simply illegal to do that (ostensibly for safety reasons, actually for protectionist reasons (ok, maybe also because utilities don't want to build out grid-scale batteries and other smoothing solutions)).

InDubioProRubio 2y ago
Which could be privatized too, if the incentives were provided. The safety reasons are actually valid. You can not safely turn off a power-topology with a N-to-N setup. The providers just cant life without that power..
WJW 2y ago
The safety reasons are real though: when linesmen need to do work on the grid, it has to be depowered. This used to be easy to accomplish: just make sure the line is switched off from at the substation and you can be reasonably certain that the line is safe to work on. If Joe Random decides to send his solar power directly into the depowered grid, that would be a Bad Time for the worker involved. "Protectionist reasons" sounds nice to people who already hate big corporations, but it doesn't make a lot of sense. When the grid is down, it's down. There is no revenue to protect at that point. The actual thing they might want to protect against is big solar farms competing away revenue from fossil fuel plants, but as you'll notice such solar farms are entirely legal.
- Gasp0de 2y ago
  Well the inverters with which these solar systems work switch off within milliseconds when grid power goes down, so the problem you correctly identified is taken care of. There are also multiple redundant components to ensure this behavior.
- icehawk 2y ago
  > If Joe Random decides to send his solar power directly into the depowered grid, that would be a Bad Time for the worker involved. You need a special inverter for it to not blow up when the grid is running, and even the cheap $80 grid tie inverters on amazon do this sort of checking before activating.
- potato3732842 2y ago
  >The safety reasons are real though: when linesmen need to do work on the grid, it has to be depowered. This used to be easy to accomplish: just make sure the line is switched off from at the substation and you can be reasonably certain that the line is safe to work on. If Joe Random decides to send his solar power directly into the depowered grid, that would be a Bad Time for the worker involved. <yawn> This argument again? People have been saying the same thing about backup generators forever and it's just not true in practice. From the POV of your solar or generator the resistance of the neighborhood is basically a short. Breakers will pop if generator and/or or voltage will collapse if solar. If you are out of sync and the grid comes back your hardware will be what leaves the chat, not the grid's Linesmen are trained to ground their work first because the far bigger hazard to them is miscommunication among upstream coworkers. Better to liquify fuses or hardware than people when that happens. If "everyone" had solar or a back fed generator it could be a problem but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. And that bridge would be crossed procedurally on the utility/linesman side (grounding your work mostly already does but more would likely be desired). They're not stupid. They're not gonna trust their lives to the assumption that the hardware upstream and downstream is going to do what they expect. >"Protectionist reasons" sounds nice to people who already hate big corporations, but it doesn't make a lot of sense. When the grid is down, it's down. There is no revenue to protect at that point. The actual thing they might want to protect against is big solar farms competing away revenue from fossil fuel plants, but as you'll notice such solar farms are entirely legal. The protectionist angle is that if generation was more local rather than regional there would be much more competition because it would become more economically realistic for municipalities to strike out on their own and/or parter with each other and do so in order to shake off existing overpriced or incompetent utilities.

Szpadel 2y ago

AFAIK all inverters (except off-grid models) will refuse to work without mains power. it's also technical requirement, you have to synchronize to existing sine wave. the main reason such device is bad idea is that you might have power at exposed pins. In this case inverter will not produce any power until you already plugged into socket.

Toutouxc 2y ago

Must be a gross simplification. The nearest power socket is not the right place for the decision where the power goes. You probably want all your sockets supplied with your own electricity, but not the outside world (which makes your distribution board the right place to connect anything). I have a friend who works for the grid operator in our country. He says that if you, even for a few seconds, become a power generator (as opposed to a load) without being authorized to, they'll notice and there will be an investigation. edit: Sounds like they do just plug in into the power outlet, and you're allowed to supply power back to the grid. Which makes sense, and is very different from what we have one country over.

magnetometer 2y ago
[dead]

Tade0 2y ago

You need a two-way meter, so you'll have to communicate with your power company to get one installed beforehand, but otherwise it's as inconsequential to the grid as plugging in a vacuum cleaner or running a microwave oven.

nuancebydefault 2y ago

In fact there is very little difference between plugging the AC side of a single panel into a socket and connecting a set 'the proper way' to your distribution panel. The only difference is overcurrent protection and maybe cable section size. But for single panels this could be a non-issue. Source: i installed a set of solar panels myself.

marcosdumay 2y ago
Well, that's if you have a single-phase installation. But that overcurrent protection is huge. Even more if your house walls are flammable.

dghughes 2y ago

Here in rural Canada people with generators would often plug into a home outlet just a regular plug during a power outage. Not a good idea and depends on the circuit path if fuse or breakers. It's 120V AC to AC 60Hz anyway. Hey if it keeps power on, allows you to start the furnace, and not freeze, or keep pipes from bursting it will work.

Propelloni 2y ago

No, there is nothing special technologywise, it's a regulation thing. The thinking goes something like this: The million or two of balcony power plants installed in Germany help the installer's energy bill but the, let's be generous, 2 GWh per year produced are only a drop in the overall bucket, most local produced excess will not even leave your street before consumed. Furthermore, consider that Germany alone produces around 600 TWh of electrical energy per year. But Germany's grid is part of the European grid and yeah, 2 GWh don't even move the needle.