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The leetcode grind is my biggest dread. I can do it and I do well, but I'll be damned if it isn't a lot of mindless rote memorization that immediately leaves my
by Salgat 2y ago
The leetcode grind is my biggest dread. I can do it and I do well, but I'll be damned if it isn't a lot of mindless rote memorization that immediately leaves my brain the second I land the job, never to be used again (even in my job) until the next time I apply around.
- diamondfist25 2y agoI wonder what’s the value of even doing leetcode when AI can solve it in 10 seconds…
- zamalek 2y agoThe highly specific/specialized problems leetcode has presented have never held value, outside of a very small set of companies (i.e. MOFAANG).
- nickff 2y agoIt’s not about testing ability to solve those problems, it’s about testing conformity, determination, and IQ (while being job-specific and thus legal).
- tptacek 2y agoIQ tests aren't illegal. Several big companies overtly use them.
- nickff 2y agoAFAIK Hasn’t been legal unless the test is closely related to the job since Griggs v. Duke Power Company, a 1971 SCOTUS case.
- tptacek 2y agoYou can just go look this up with IQ test vendors; you don't have to derive it axiomatically. They proudly list their (large) clients.
- disgruntledphd2 2y agoYou need to ensure that the test doesn't discriminate on the basis of a protected characteristic though.
- tptacek 2y agoThese are just completely bog-standard cognitive aptitude tests; in fact, they are if anything less rigorous than a modern IQ test. They're generally not specialized to specific jobs. You can read Reddit threads about people taking (and studying for) them. Don't get me wrong: I think this is an incredibly dumb practice. But there's a mythology that IQ testing is a super-effective tool for recruiting that has been suppressed by anti-discrimination law. That is not the case. Most companies don't use IQ tests, because they're not fit for purpose.
- disgruntledphd2 2y agoIt really really depends. If you're gonna train junior people then IQ tests are great, otherwise work sample tests are better. It definitely is true that IQ tests are used less in the US because of prior case law though.
- saagarjha 2y agoWhile the actual implementation isn't particularly good having a decent understanding of algorithms is useful in a lot of contexts.
- gedy 2y agoHonestly I just stopped interviewing at leetcode places and those that expect you to "prepare" for their interview, especially those that are dumb no-name SaaS companies. It's less about me being stubborn as it is those places are hiring based on the wrong skills, and those end up not being good places to work.
- anarticle 2y agoSimply don't, lean on your network if you can. It ends up bottlenecking your search anyway.
- scarface_74 2y agoExcept at smaller companies, your network just gets you a referral and interview. You still have to go through the same interview process. The two exceptions I have had were when a former coworker who is now the director of an f500 non tech company was going to create a strategic position for me. He needed someone he could trust. The other time was when a CTO and the director of application development were both former coworkers from another company and it was just a matter of me saying yes. The first job would have been more stress than I was willing to deal with and I don’t do large companies (I was suffering from PTSD from my time at AWS). The second didn’t have the budget to meet my compensation target.
- anarticle 2y agoOh totally! My aim is to avoid leetcode as a 10y+ developer with real track record delivering $XM projects. To me it is a game breaker to have to study up on leetcode problems, as it keeps me from juggling multiple interview in the pipeline. Every network job I've gotten (two) has been a walk on interview, I'm fine with this as long as I don't have to do circus problems.
- scarface_74 2y agoSure you can avoid leetCode if you’re okay with not maximizing your compensation by working at one of the FAANG or adjacent companies that pay at top of market. But you aren’t going to have a walk on non leetcode interview at one of the companies that pay a quarter million+ for a mid level developer based on a referral. I’m not saying you are a mid level developer just giving an example of comp. The amount a returning intern I mentored when I was at BigTech had a return offer that was the same as I made two years prior at 60 person startup. Now that I’m out of BigTech, I had to get a job as a “staff software architect” at a 3rd party consulting company to come close to what I was making in 2020 as mid level consultant at AWS and I’m making over $80K less than I would make as a senior doing the same thing at AWS or GCP. I’m 50, an empty nester and I’m good with making that trade off. I would rather get an anal probe with a cactus than ever work at any large company again. But if I were 30 in 2024 instead of in 2004, yeah I would grind leetCode to make a 300K+ a year. And yeah I got into BigTech without a coding interview and could probably weasel my way into Google/GCP in the consulting department without one. But that needle would be hard to thread for the vast majority of prople That’s why I always advise anyone in CS to practice for coding interviews
- eschneider 2y agoLook at this way: It's just something you do for money.
- duderific 2y agoAt least you can do it well, imagine the grind when you can't.
- le-mark 2y agoRemember when fizzbuzz was the gold standard in trick interview questions? And Joel was a revolutionary for advocating it? Things have certainly changed.
- throwaway2037 2y agoIn some sense, leetcode is fizzbuzz on steriods. As I recall, the "trick" to fizzbuzz is knowing about the modulo operator. Most leetcode problems have a similar trick that you need to know/learn to complete them correctly.
- dagw 2y agoFizzbuzz wasn't about seeing if a candidate knew the 'tricks', it was to test if you knew how to code at all. If you know about loops and if statements you can do fizzbuzz even you've never heard about modulo operators. Fizzbuzz was designed to catch the complete bullshitters who literally could not code. Apparently that was a real problem people were having at the time.
- throwaway2037 2y ago> Fizzbuzz was designed to catch the complete bullshitters who literally could not code. I'm unsure if we are in agreement or not. To me, the expansion of leetcode and friends is driven by the desire to filter for higher quality candidates. For example, in year 2000, fizzbuzz was good to filter out people who could barely write a for loop. Then, big tech needed higher and higher gates to keep out people who did not meet their standards. So fizzbuzz was given a healthy dose of anabolic steriods and told to "hit the gym". In a sense, fizzbuzz was transformed into leetcode, but the spirit was unchanged.
- pavel_lishin 2y ago
- satvikpendem 2y agoLots of jobs don't require Leetcode. I haven't done it in years yet I still get jobs consistently.
- rirze 2y agoToo many folks in this industry think any job other than FAANG/startups is not serious.