5 ms·

Calling a legitimate argument a "dog whistle" is a classic tactic OP is talking about which is used to shut down discussion. Just debate the merit of what he's

by Dig1t 2y ago

Calling a legitimate argument a "dog whistle" is a classic tactic OP is talking about which is used to shut down discussion. Just debate the merit of what he's saying rather than try to label him as an enemy. Breast reduction for children IS in fact irreversible. It causes huge scars and trying to get breast augmentation later is not actually restoring their body to its natural state. It is definitely something that is controversial. Also putting children on hormones is within scope of this conversation and DOES happen. There are lots of people who detransition and regret their decision. Children who have been sterilized for life and have permanent scars. It's completely valid to have discussions about whether kids should be able to make these decisions (they shouldn't).

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
bsder 2y ago
You are repeating the talking point without including the number: The number of those kinds of surgeries people claim to be "oh so concerned" about is in the low double digits--generally low single digits--normally zero in a year. When you get to some medical procedure that incredibly rare, the medical indications are generally really, really unique and should be left to doctors. (breast implants in girls are simply not done until 18+ unless cancer is involved, for example). Despite what people seem to think, doctors don't just do this stuff randomly (at least in the US). They can and will lose their license for doing this kind of thing unless they follow established guidelines. And all those guidelines dictate that this kind of stuff is simply not done until after 18 unless there are incredibly extenuating medical circumstances. > Breast reduction for children IS in fact irreversible. It causes huge scars and trying to get breast augmentation later is not actually restoring their body to its natural state. I have yet to meet a girl or woman who had breast reduction and regretted it. See: Soleil Moon Frye, for example. She had genuine health issues. And, even still, she had to fight with her doctors to get it done at 16 rather than wait until 18. > Children who have been sterilized for life and have permanent scars. Cite examples. I suspect vastly more children have been sterilized for life from circumcision complications than from any other gender surgery.
- auung 2y ago
  > The number of those kinds of surgeries people claim to be "oh so concerned" about is in the low double digits--generally low single digits--normally zero in a year. In the US it's hundreds of such surgeries each year, and rising, per https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-data/#mastectomies https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-tran... This is a lower bound as not all of these young girls get their breasts removed through health insurance, some will be paid for privately.
  - Dig1t 2y ago
    Not only that, but the number of kids on hormone blockers is in the thousands (and increasing a lot every year). It's claimed that their effects are reversible but that is false, they lead to sterilization if the timing is wrong. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/ https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/ >Long-term gender-affirming hormone treatment may cause temporary or even permanent infertility. And the worst part of all: >56 genital surgeries among patients ages 13 to 17 That's 56 kids who were permanently sterilized before their brain was even finished developing. I have nothing against trans people, but many people draw the line when it comes to kids.
    - irisgrunn 2y ago
      According to this way more recent study they are totally reversible: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0929693X24001763 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0929693X2... And this one says the same: https://academic.oup.com/jsm/article/20/3/398/7005631 https://academic.oup.com/jsm/article/20/3/398/7005631 And then there's article from Yale that actually disproves the cass report where the NHS guidelines are based on: https://law.yale.edu/sites/default/files/documents/integrity-project_cass-response.pdf https://law.yale.edu/sites/default/files/documents/integrity... > I have nothing against trans people, but many people draw the line when it comes to kids. Except when those children happen to be trans, that case they're not allowed to exist or be mutilated for life, even though it's easily preventable

by Dig1t 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

bsder 2y ago

You are repeating the talking point without including the number: The number of those kinds of surgeries people claim to be "oh so concerned" about is in the low double digits--generally low single digits--normally zero in a year. When you get to some medical procedure that incredibly rare, the medical indications are generally really, really unique and should be left to doctors. (breast implants in girls are simply not done until 18+ unless cancer is involved, for example). Despite what people seem to think, doctors don't just do this stuff randomly (at least in the US). They can and will lose their license for doing this kind of thing unless they follow established guidelines. And all those guidelines dictate that this kind of stuff is simply not done until after 18 unless there are incredibly extenuating medical circumstances. > Breast reduction for children IS in fact irreversible. It causes huge scars and trying to get breast augmentation later is not actually restoring their body to its natural state. I have yet to meet a girl or woman who had breast reduction and regretted it. See: Soleil Moon Frye, for example. She had genuine health issues. And, even still, she had to fight with her doctors to get it done at 16 rather than wait until 18. > Children who have been sterilized for life and have permanent scars. Cite examples. I suspect vastly more children have been sterilized for life from circumcision complications than from any other gender surgery.

auung 2y ago
> The number of those kinds of surgeries people claim to be "oh so concerned" about is in the low double digits--generally low single digits--normally zero in a year. In the US it's hundreds of such surgeries each year, and rising, per https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-data/#mastectomies https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-tran... This is a lower bound as not all of these young girls get their breasts removed through health insurance, some will be paid for privately.
- Dig1t 2y ago
  Not only that, but the number of kids on hormone blockers is in the thousands (and increasing a lot every year). It's claimed that their effects are reversible but that is false, they lead to sterilization if the timing is wrong. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/ https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/ >Long-term gender-affirming hormone treatment may cause temporary or even permanent infertility. And the worst part of all: >56 genital surgeries among patients ages 13 to 17 That's 56 kids who were permanently sterilized before their brain was even finished developing. I have nothing against trans people, but many people draw the line when it comes to kids.
  - irisgrunn 2y ago
    According to this way more recent study they are totally reversible: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0929693X24001763 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0929693X2... And this one says the same: https://academic.oup.com/jsm/article/20/3/398/7005631 https://academic.oup.com/jsm/article/20/3/398/7005631 And then there's article from Yale that actually disproves the cass report where the NHS guidelines are based on: https://law.yale.edu/sites/default/files/documents/integrity-project_cass-response.pdf https://law.yale.edu/sites/default/files/documents/integrity... > I have nothing against trans people, but many people draw the line when it comes to kids. Except when those children happen to be trans, that case they're not allowed to exist or be mutilated for life, even though it's easily preventable