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I really like Community Notes, and hate the rest of what Twitter has become. But... Community Notes is subject to "tampering." Elon's either removes the CNs hi

I really like Community Notes, and hate the rest of what Twitter has become. But... Community Notes is subject to "tampering." Elon's either removes the CNs himself from his posts, or his brigade downvote them to infinity so they don't appear on all the misinfo he posts.

warkdarrior 2y ago
> Elon's either removes the CNs himself from his posts, or his brigade downvote them to infinity so they don't appear on all the misinfo he posts. I don't know if this is the case, but X is Elon's property, so he can shape it as he pleases. Assuming that X (or Facebook) is unbiased and working for your benefit is simply foolish, unless you are Musk (or Zuckerberg).
raphman 2y ago
[Posted also in another thread:] I am not so sure that Musk or right-wing moderators are directly to blame for the lack of published community notes. My guess: in recent months, many people (e.g., me) who are motivated to counter fake news have left Twitter for other platforms. Thus, proposed CNs are seen and upvoted by fewer people, resulting in fewer of them being shown to the public. Also, I ask myself: why should I spend time verifying or writing CNs when it does not matter - the emperor knows that he is not wearing any clothes, and he does not care.
hcurtiss 2y ago
Do we have any evidence that Musk has removed a CN on his own post? I've personally seen evidence to the contrary, and he makes a point of highlighting that even he gets a CN every now and then.
- Ajedi32 2y ago
  As the root comment noted, one of the great things about community notes on X are that the algorithm and the data it's operating on are public. If Musk were removing notes that would be trivial to prove. The fact that such claims of tampering are never accompanied by said proof should tell you all you need to know.
  - daveguy 2y ago
    When you ban anyone who speaks against you, you don't even need moderation! Problem solved. But of course he can turn it off. He owns the entire platform and algorithms on it.
    - zahlman 2y ago
      Musk can't ban people from HN. If there existed evidence of him removing CNs from his own Twitter posts, it could trivially be posted here.
      - daveguy 2y ago
        How exactly would there be evidence if he can have every CN screened?
        zahlman 2y ago
        If something is "removed", that logically implies that it was there at some point in the past. Technology exists which can archive the state of webpages at the current point in time. If someone is believed to do something habitually, and others wish to gather evidence of that conduct, they might prepare in advance. I assume I don't need to connect the dots here.
        daveguy 2y ago
        If something is "never added" it serves the same purpose as removal. Even more so -- there is no evidence and none was ever available. I assume I don't need to connect the dots here. If you do not think Elon could be controlling the moderation of his own account then you are either hopelessly naive or responding in bad faith. Either way, I will not be responding again.
  - davidclark 2y ago
    How would it be trivial? Can you describe in a more specific way? The data I can find says it was last updated 9:02 PM Jan. 5, 2025 (presumably America/Chicago from my browser). That’s a >2 day window as of writing this comment. Not throwing any accusation, just trying to understand the technicals. If there was any manipulation of community notes in the last 2 days, how would we know? If there’s manipulation of this data before it is published, such as ratings or notes never hitting these data files, how would we know? Maybe, an individual could check to see their own contributions are included in updates to the published data. Is that sufficiently common such that it would get caught? Community note data I can find (log in required): https://x.com/i/communitynotes/download-data https://x.com/i/communitynotes/download-data
bpodgursky 2y ago
I don't think "CEO is able to remove community notes" is a strong mark against the community note algorithm. No system is immune to being turned off...
zahlman 2y ago
[flagged]
- TiredOfLife 2y ago
  Can you evidence that Musk posts things that are provably true?
  - zahlman 2y ago
    I don't read Musk's tweets, or really any tweets that aren't directly linked to me by friends. That's completely irrelevant to the discussion, however. GP asserts that Musk takes actions to protect "...the misinfo he posts". The burden of proof is on GP to establish that Musk posts "misinfo[rmation]", a word which I understand in context to mean "content which is provably untrue". If you think it should mean something different, please explain why.
- FireBeyond 2y ago
  Nancy Pelosi's husband's gay lover hammer attack? Diver rescuers being pedophiles?
  - stronglikedan 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - consp 2y ago
      These accusations are untrue until otherwise presented. Or is the burden of proof these days on the Innocent?
      - zahlman 2y ago
        The post I replied to was accusing Musk of posting "misinfo". I responded by asking for evidence of Musk saying things that are provably untrue, because that is the standard of evidence that would be required to support such an accusation. This is not a criminal proceeding.

warkdarrior 2y ago

> Elon's either removes the CNs himself from his posts, or his brigade downvote them to infinity so they don't appear on all the misinfo he posts. I don't know if this is the case, but X is Elon's property, so he can shape it as he pleases. Assuming that X (or Facebook) is unbiased and working for your benefit is simply foolish, unless you are Musk (or Zuckerberg).

raphman 2y ago

[Posted also in another thread:] I am not so sure that Musk or right-wing moderators are directly to blame for the lack of published community notes. My guess: in recent months, many people (e.g., me) who are motivated to counter fake news have left Twitter for other platforms. Thus, proposed CNs are seen and upvoted by fewer people, resulting in fewer of them being shown to the public. Also, I ask myself: why should I spend time verifying or writing CNs when it does not matter - the emperor knows that he is not wearing any clothes, and he does not care.

hcurtiss 2y ago

Do we have any evidence that Musk has removed a CN on his own post? I've personally seen evidence to the contrary, and he makes a point of highlighting that even he gets a CN every now and then.

Ajedi32 2y ago
As the root comment noted, one of the great things about community notes on X are that the algorithm and the data it's operating on are public. If Musk were removing notes that would be trivial to prove. The fact that such claims of tampering are never accompanied by said proof should tell you all you need to know.
- daveguy 2y ago
  When you ban anyone who speaks against you, you don't even need moderation! Problem solved. But of course he can turn it off. He owns the entire platform and algorithms on it.
  - zahlman 2y ago
    Musk can't ban people from HN. If there existed evidence of him removing CNs from his own Twitter posts, it could trivially be posted here.
    - daveguy 2y ago
      How exactly would there be evidence if he can have every CN screened?
      - zahlman 2y ago
        If something is "removed", that logically implies that it was there at some point in the past. Technology exists which can archive the state of webpages at the current point in time. If someone is believed to do something habitually, and others wish to gather evidence of that conduct, they might prepare in advance. I assume I don't need to connect the dots here.
        daveguy 2y ago
        If something is "never added" it serves the same purpose as removal. Even more so -- there is no evidence and none was ever available. I assume I don't need to connect the dots here. If you do not think Elon could be controlling the moderation of his own account then you are either hopelessly naive or responding in bad faith. Either way, I will not be responding again.
- davidclark 2y ago
  How would it be trivial? Can you describe in a more specific way? The data I can find says it was last updated 9:02 PM Jan. 5, 2025 (presumably America/Chicago from my browser). That’s a >2 day window as of writing this comment. Not throwing any accusation, just trying to understand the technicals. If there was any manipulation of community notes in the last 2 days, how would we know? If there’s manipulation of this data before it is published, such as ratings or notes never hitting these data files, how would we know? Maybe, an individual could check to see their own contributions are included in updates to the published data. Is that sufficiently common such that it would get caught? Community note data I can find (log in required): https://x.com/i/communitynotes/download-data https://x.com/i/communitynotes/download-data

bpodgursky 2y ago

I don't think "CEO is able to remove community notes" is a strong mark against the community note algorithm. No system is immune to being turned off...

zahlman 2y ago

[flagged]

TiredOfLife 2y ago
Can you evidence that Musk posts things that are provably true?
- zahlman 2y ago
  I don't read Musk's tweets, or really any tweets that aren't directly linked to me by friends. That's completely irrelevant to the discussion, however. GP asserts that Musk takes actions to protect "...the misinfo he posts". The burden of proof is on GP to establish that Musk posts "misinfo[rmation]", a word which I understand in context to mean "content which is provably untrue". If you think it should mean something different, please explain why.
FireBeyond 2y ago
Nancy Pelosi's husband's gay lover hammer attack? Diver rescuers being pedophiles?
- stronglikedan 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - consp 2y ago
    These accusations are untrue until otherwise presented. Or is the burden of proof these days on the Innocent?
    - zahlman 2y ago
      The post I replied to was accusing Musk of posting "misinfo". I responded by asking for evidence of Musk saying things that are provably untrue, because that is the standard of evidence that would be required to support such an accusation. This is not a criminal proceeding.