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I think the biggest thing CP is going to do in NYC is end toll shopping. There were previously some pretty obvious arbs available to people trying to get off L

I think the biggest thing CP is going to do in NYC is end toll shopping. There were previously some pretty obvious arbs available to people trying to get off LI. The biggest policy failure of CP though to me is that they left taxi/uber relatively unscathed. Often the majority of traffic is taxi/uber, so make the surcharge on them a fraction of what individual drivers pay is kind of nonsensical. Are we trying to minimize traffic (so tax call cars) or parking (so tax taxi/uber less since they don't have to park in Manhattan?). It smells of lobbying mostly.

gregshap 2y ago
The uber/taxi fee is charged per ride, whereas private passenger cars pay once per day. Seems like a reasonable tradeoff.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- throwawaymaths 2y ago
  if the passenger car pays once a day, it's only generating one unit of congestion.
  - steveBK123 2y ago
    And further, if I am already paying $50 fare to take an Uber, a $1.50 toll is not deterring me or reducing my usage at all. It is less than the rounding error on the tip I give the driver. I probably won't even notice it amongst the 5 line items of fees, taxes, surcharges, etc on the digital receipt.
    - Spooky23 2y ago
      This is where the dogma gets in the way of reality. Uber and cabs are the glue that fills the gaps that public transit has left unfilled for decades. The policy goal is to reduce congestion by discouraging personal vehicles in the zone and generate revenue for transportation as a whole, not to turn the city into a pedestrian park. The state took an approach that does that without nuking the city. Based on the fact that nobody seems to be giddy about this, I’d say they did a decent job at that. If the crazy transit nuts are happy and the angry Jersey people are happy, something went wrong.
      - jakelazaroff 2y ago
        The congestion relief zone is probably one of the single densest transit zones on the planet. Rideshares and cabs are definitely useful for filling in the gaps in the boroughs, but you basically never need one in downtown Manhattan.
        tekla 2y ago
        You're forgetting that the transit zones themselves are not only affected, the main BRIDGES are also affected. So even if you're not driving in downtown Manhattan, you will still pay the cost to enter the city through the normal entrances ``` Manhattan's Congestion Relief Zone starts at 60th Street and heads south to include the Lincoln, Holland and Hugh L. Carey tunnels on the Hudson River side, and the Queensboro Bridge, Queens Midtown Tunnel, Williamsburg Bridge, Manhattan Bridge and Brooklyn Bridge on the East Side. Drivers will be charged when they enter the Congestion Relief Zone using the Brooklyn, Manhattan, Queensboro or Williamsburg Bridges, or the Holland, Hugh L. Carey, Lincoln or Queens-Midtown tunnels. Drivers coming from the Bronx or Upper Manhattan will be charged once they reach 60th Street. ```
        deleted 2y ago
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        deleted 2y ago
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        chockablock 2y ago
        > even if you're not driving in downtown Manhattan, you will still pay the cost to enter the city through the normal entrances Incorrect--if you take one of those bridges/tunnels below 60th street, then stay on FDR or West Side Highway to travel to a different part of NYC (i.e. you never enter the interior surface streets below 60th), then you don't pay the congestion fee. "The Congestion Relief Zone includes local streets and avenues in Manhattan south of and including 60 Street, excluding the FDR Drive, West Side Highway/Route 9A, and the Hugh L. Carey Tunnel connections to West Street." https://congestionreliefzone.mta.info/tolling https://congestionreliefzone.mta.info/tolling
  - connicpu 2y ago
    The car takes up space in the city the entire time it's there, even if the congestion impact is less while it's parked.
    - aqme28 2y ago
      The lengths this city goes to keep free parking...
- steveBK123 2y ago
  Private passenger car driver is paying 12x Taxi toll / 6x Uber toll. Taxi/Uber toll is passed directly onto he rider. Why should it be cheaper to be chauffeured? Also your average Taxi may not even cross into the CPZ 12x per day, so unclear we are making it up on volume either.
  - enragedcacti 2y ago
    Small correction, every ride that starts and/or ends in the zone incurs the fee so a taxi that enters, does 12 trips, then leaves pays the same amount as a private car even though they only entered the zone once.
    - steveBK123 2y ago
      That's great, but it's still too cheap
    - dangus 2y ago
      There's still a per-ride citywide congestion fee baked into each Uber fare. So overall there are still more overall congestion taxes paid by the taxi/uber in your scenario.
  - timr 2y ago
    > Why should it be cheaper to be chauffeured? It isn't. It's vastly more expensive to ride in a taxi when you include the fare.
  - recursive 2y ago
    Because there are fewer cars in the system for each chauffeured ride vs private vehicle.
    - steveBK123 2y ago
      Fewer cars "in the system" but same (or possibly more) cars on the road actively moving. Take a look at some of the dwell times for ride hail vehicles in NYC. Can easily approach 20-35%. Plus the apps are kicking drivers out at various quiet periods of the day in order to avoid paying them minimum wage. So true empty time is higher. Again I'm not arguing for better treatment for personal vehicles. I'm arguing all the fees are too low, and the ride hail fee egregiously so.
- chimeracoder 2y ago
  > The uber/taxi fee is charged per ride, whereas private passenger cars pay once per day. Seems like a reasonable tradeoff. The fee for cabs was actually set by dividing the regular fee for private cars by the average number of trips cabs make into the Congestion Relief Zone per day (because the fee is only paid once per day for private cars, but per trip for cabs)
CPLX 2y ago
How do you figure that? The amount of the surcharge for the average taxi/uber driver per day will be many many multiples of the cost for a regular driver. In the case of a regular driver you you have someone paying $9 to bring a car into the congested area, probably serving one trip by one person. In the case of a TLC driver you'll have them paying probably well over $100 a day (assuming the $2.75 charge x 4-5 trips an hour give or take) and aiding in the transport of probably dozens of people to their destination. It seems completely obvious why this is a better approach to relieving congestion while still preserving the ability of people to get around.
- steveBK123 2y ago
  I have a car and live in Brooklyn. I usually take an Uber anyway because parking is a pain and/or expensive. So I was previously comparing: $0 car toll + $20-50 parking vs $0 car toll + $50 Taxi/Uber fare Now I am comparing: $9 car toll + $20-50 parking vs $1.50 Uber toll + $50 Uber fare That is - the fee is being passed onto riders anyway, so why should I pay a lower toll sitting in the back of an Uber than when driving myself across the bridge? This is where some of the concerns about classism come into play. I'm already paying more to be driven around in an Uber vs drive myself. Why should I be given a toll discount?
  - np- 2y ago
    Think of the congestion charge as a charge on the vehicle, rather than on the person, as the stated policy goal is to reduce the number of vehicles in the CBD, not the number of people overall. The Uber is very likely going to continue to be used to service other passengers after dropping you off within the same calendar day, so one potential "fair" solution is to split the congestion charge among the many passengers using that one vehicle. That is your reduced Uber toll charge. But even in this case, it's not really an even split, taxis are going to generate a much higher congestion charge revenue than a single passenger car.
    - jakelazaroff 2y ago
      The rideshare toll is already a charge on the vehicle and not the riders. If you share an Uber with two other people, the per-person congestion fee for the trip drops to $0.50.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
MisterTea 2y ago
> I think the biggest thing CP is going to do in NYC is end toll shopping. Or toll beating. An old trick is taking a tractor trailer (or any big truck with more than a few axles) from LI to mainland without paying tolls: take the 59th st bridge, left onto 2nd, left onto 59th, left onto 1st and strait up to Willis bridge which leads strait into the Deegan.
wrsh07 2y ago
Fwiw, we have other mechanisms for limiting taxis and Uber. We can actually put a hard limit on the number allowed to operate. This ends up being a little awkward since Uber charges market prices, so what happens when the number of Uber drivers is capped is _Uber_ pockets the congestion fee instead of the city. But the taxi lobby is strong and we can't fix everything at once

gregshap 2y ago

The uber/taxi fee is charged per ride, whereas private passenger cars pay once per day. Seems like a reasonable tradeoff.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
throwawaymaths 2y ago
if the passenger car pays once a day, it's only generating one unit of congestion.
- steveBK123 2y ago
  And further, if I am already paying $50 fare to take an Uber, a $1.50 toll is not deterring me or reducing my usage at all. It is less than the rounding error on the tip I give the driver. I probably won't even notice it amongst the 5 line items of fees, taxes, surcharges, etc on the digital receipt.
  - Spooky23 2y ago
    This is where the dogma gets in the way of reality. Uber and cabs are the glue that fills the gaps that public transit has left unfilled for decades. The policy goal is to reduce congestion by discouraging personal vehicles in the zone and generate revenue for transportation as a whole, not to turn the city into a pedestrian park. The state took an approach that does that without nuking the city. Based on the fact that nobody seems to be giddy about this, I’d say they did a decent job at that. If the crazy transit nuts are happy and the angry Jersey people are happy, something went wrong.
    - jakelazaroff 2y ago
      The congestion relief zone is probably one of the single densest transit zones on the planet. Rideshares and cabs are definitely useful for filling in the gaps in the boroughs, but you basically never need one in downtown Manhattan.
      - tekla 2y ago
        You're forgetting that the transit zones themselves are not only affected, the main BRIDGES are also affected. So even if you're not driving in downtown Manhattan, you will still pay the cost to enter the city through the normal entrances ``` Manhattan's Congestion Relief Zone starts at 60th Street and heads south to include the Lincoln, Holland and Hugh L. Carey tunnels on the Hudson River side, and the Queensboro Bridge, Queens Midtown Tunnel, Williamsburg Bridge, Manhattan Bridge and Brooklyn Bridge on the East Side. Drivers will be charged when they enter the Congestion Relief Zone using the Brooklyn, Manhattan, Queensboro or Williamsburg Bridges, or the Holland, Hugh L. Carey, Lincoln or Queens-Midtown tunnels. Drivers coming from the Bronx or Upper Manhattan will be charged once they reach 60th Street. ```
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        chockablock 2y ago
        > even if you're not driving in downtown Manhattan, you will still pay the cost to enter the city through the normal entrances Incorrect--if you take one of those bridges/tunnels below 60th street, then stay on FDR or West Side Highway to travel to a different part of NYC (i.e. you never enter the interior surface streets below 60th), then you don't pay the congestion fee. "The Congestion Relief Zone includes local streets and avenues in Manhattan south of and including 60 Street, excluding the FDR Drive, West Side Highway/Route 9A, and the Hugh L. Carey Tunnel connections to West Street." https://congestionreliefzone.mta.info/tolling https://congestionreliefzone.mta.info/tolling
- connicpu 2y ago
  The car takes up space in the city the entire time it's there, even if the congestion impact is less while it's parked.
  - aqme28 2y ago
    The lengths this city goes to keep free parking...
steveBK123 2y ago
Private passenger car driver is paying 12x Taxi toll / 6x Uber toll. Taxi/Uber toll is passed directly onto he rider. Why should it be cheaper to be chauffeured? Also your average Taxi may not even cross into the CPZ 12x per day, so unclear we are making it up on volume either.
- enragedcacti 2y ago
  Small correction, every ride that starts and/or ends in the zone incurs the fee so a taxi that enters, does 12 trips, then leaves pays the same amount as a private car even though they only entered the zone once.
  - steveBK123 2y ago
    That's great, but it's still too cheap
  - dangus 2y ago
    There's still a per-ride citywide congestion fee baked into each Uber fare. So overall there are still more overall congestion taxes paid by the taxi/uber in your scenario.
- timr 2y ago
  > Why should it be cheaper to be chauffeured? It isn't. It's vastly more expensive to ride in a taxi when you include the fare.
- recursive 2y ago
  Because there are fewer cars in the system for each chauffeured ride vs private vehicle.
  - steveBK123 2y ago
    Fewer cars "in the system" but same (or possibly more) cars on the road actively moving. Take a look at some of the dwell times for ride hail vehicles in NYC. Can easily approach 20-35%. Plus the apps are kicking drivers out at various quiet periods of the day in order to avoid paying them minimum wage. So true empty time is higher. Again I'm not arguing for better treatment for personal vehicles. I'm arguing all the fees are too low, and the ride hail fee egregiously so.
chimeracoder 2y ago
> The uber/taxi fee is charged per ride, whereas private passenger cars pay once per day. Seems like a reasonable tradeoff. The fee for cabs was actually set by dividing the regular fee for private cars by the average number of trips cabs make into the Congestion Relief Zone per day (because the fee is only paid once per day for private cars, but per trip for cabs)

CPLX 2y ago

How do you figure that? The amount of the surcharge for the average taxi/uber driver per day will be many many multiples of the cost for a regular driver. In the case of a regular driver you you have someone paying $9 to bring a car into the congested area, probably serving one trip by one person. In the case of a TLC driver you'll have them paying probably well over $100 a day (assuming the $2.75 charge x 4-5 trips an hour give or take) and aiding in the transport of probably dozens of people to their destination. It seems completely obvious why this is a better approach to relieving congestion while still preserving the ability of people to get around.

steveBK123 2y ago
I have a car and live in Brooklyn. I usually take an Uber anyway because parking is a pain and/or expensive. So I was previously comparing: $0 car toll + $20-50 parking vs $0 car toll + $50 Taxi/Uber fare Now I am comparing: $9 car toll + $20-50 parking vs $1.50 Uber toll + $50 Uber fare That is - the fee is being passed onto riders anyway, so why should I pay a lower toll sitting in the back of an Uber than when driving myself across the bridge? This is where some of the concerns about classism come into play. I'm already paying more to be driven around in an Uber vs drive myself. Why should I be given a toll discount?
- np- 2y ago
  Think of the congestion charge as a charge on the vehicle, rather than on the person, as the stated policy goal is to reduce the number of vehicles in the CBD, not the number of people overall. The Uber is very likely going to continue to be used to service other passengers after dropping you off within the same calendar day, so one potential "fair" solution is to split the congestion charge among the many passengers using that one vehicle. That is your reduced Uber toll charge. But even in this case, it's not really an even split, taxis are going to generate a much higher congestion charge revenue than a single passenger car.
  - jakelazaroff 2y ago
    The rideshare toll is already a charge on the vehicle and not the riders. If you share an Uber with two other people, the per-person congestion fee for the trip drops to $0.50.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

MisterTea 2y ago

> I think the biggest thing CP is going to do in NYC is end toll shopping. Or toll beating. An old trick is taking a tractor trailer (or any big truck with more than a few axles) from LI to mainland without paying tolls: take the 59th st bridge, left onto 2nd, left onto 59th, left onto 1st and strait up to Willis bridge which leads strait into the Deegan.

wrsh07 2y ago

Fwiw, we have other mechanisms for limiting taxis and Uber. We can actually put a hard limit on the number allowed to operate. This ends up being a little awkward since Uber charges market prices, so what happens when the number of Uber drivers is capped is _Uber_ pockets the congestion fee instead of the city. But the taxi lobby is strong and we can't fix everything at once