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Even though they are all marketed as gaming cards, Nvidia is now very clearly differentiating between 5070/5070 Ti/5080 for mid-high end gaming and 5090 for con
by paxys 2y ago
Even though they are all marketed as gaming cards, Nvidia is now very clearly differentiating between 5070/5070 Ti/5080 for mid-high end gaming and 5090 for consumer/entry-level AI. The gap between xx80 and xx90 is going to be too wide for regular gamers to cross this generation.
- kcb 2y agoYup, the days of the value high end card are dead it seems like. I thought we would see a cut down 4090 at some point last generation but it never happened. Surely there's a market gap somewhere between 5090 and 5080.
- smallmancontrov 2y agoYes, but Nvidia thinks enough of them get pushed up to the 5090 to make the gap worthwhile. Only way to fix this is for AMD to decide it likes money. I'm not holding my breath.
- kaibee 2y agoDon't necessarily count Intel out.
- romon 2y agoIntel is halting its construction of new factories and mulling over whether to break up the company...
- User23 2y agoIntel's Board is going full Kodak.
- 63 2y agoI wouldn't count Intel out in the long term, but it'll take quite a few generations for them to catch up and who knows what the market will be like by then
- blitzar 2y agoIntel hate making money even more than AMD.
- hylaride 2y agoStarting around 2000, Intel tried to make money via attempts at everything but making a better product (pushing RAMBUS RAM, itanium, cripling low-end chips more than they needed to be, focusing more on keeping chip manufacturing in-house thereby losing out on economy of scale). The result was engineers were (not always, but too often) nowhere near the forefront of technology. Now AMD, NVIDIA, ARM are all chipping away (pun intended). It's not dissimilar to what happened to Boeing. I'm a capitalist, but the current accounting laws (in particular corporate taxation rules) mean that all companies are pushed to use money for stock buybacks than R&D (which Intel spent more on the former over the latter over the past decade and I'm watching Apple stagnate before my eyes).
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- FuriouslyAdrift 2y agoIntel's Arc B580 budget card is selling like hotcakes... https://www.pcworld.com/article/2553897/intel-arc-b580-review-worthy-budget-1440p-gpu.html https://www.pcworld.com/article/2553897/intel-arc-b580-revie...
- blitzar 2y agoThey fired the CEO for daring to make a product such as this. The 25mil they paid to get rid of him might even wipe out their profits on this product.
- FuriouslyAdrift 2y agoAMD announced they aren't making a top tier card for the next generation and is focusing on mid-tier. Next generation, the are finally reversing course and unifying their AI and GPU architectures (just like nVidia). 2026 is the big year for AMD.
- officeplant 2y agoAMD's GPU marketing during CES has been such a shit show. No numbers, just adjectives and vibes. They're either hiding their hand, or they continue to have nothing to bring to the table. Meanwhile their CPU marketing has numbers and graphs because their at the top of their game and have nothing to hide. I'm glad they exist because we need the competition, but the GPU market continues to look dreary. At least we have a low/mid range battle going on between the three companies to look forward to for people with sensible gaming budgets.
- ryao 2y agoThe xx90 cards are really Titan cards. The 3090 was the successor to the Titan RTX, while the 3080 Ti was the successor to the 2080 Ti, which succeeded the 1080 Ti. This succession continued into the 40 series and now the 50 series. If you consider the 2080 Ti to be the "value high end card" of its day, then it would follow that the 5080 is the value high end card today, not the 5090.
- kcb 2y agoIn all those historical cases the second tier card was a cut down version of the top tier one. Now the 4080 and 5080 are a different chip and there's a gulf of a performance gap between them and the top tier. That's the issue I am highlighting, the 5080 is half a 5090, in the past a 3080 was only 10% off a 3090 performance wise.
- ryao 2y agoIt was not actually. The last time this was the case was Maxwell: https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/nvidia-gm200.g772 https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/nvidia-gm200.g772 Beginning with Pascal, Nvidia’s top GPU was not available in consumer graphics cards: https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/nvidia-gp100.g792 https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/nvidia-gp100.g792 Turing was a bit weird since instead of having a TU100, they instead had Volta’s GV100: https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/nvidia-tu102.g813 https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/nvidia-tu102.g813 https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/nvidia-gv100.g809 https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/nvidia-gv100.g809 Then there is Ampere’s GA100 that never was used in a consumer graphics card: https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/nvidia-ga100.g931 https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/nvidia-ga100.g931 Ada was again weird as instead of a AD100, it had the GH100: https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/nvidia-ad102.g1005 https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/nvidia-ad102.g1005 https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/nvidia-gh100.g1011 https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/nvidia-gh100.g1011 Now with Blackwell the GB100 is the high end one that is not going into consumer cards. The 5090 gets GB202 and the 5080 gets GB203. Rather than the 40 series and 50 series putting the #2 GPU die into the #2 consumer card, they are putting the #3 GPU die into the #2 consumer card.
- epolanski 2y agoYou underestimate how many gamers got a 4090.
- ziml77 2y agoThe 4090 already seemed positioned as a card for consumer AI enthusiast workloads. But this $1000 price gap between the 5080 and 5090 seems to finally cement that. Though we're probably still going to see tons of tech YouTubers making videos specifically about how the 5090 isn't a good value for gaming as if it even matters. The people who want to spend $2000 on a GPU for gaming don't care about the value and everyone else already could see it wasn't worth it.
- dijit 2y agoFrom all the communication I’ve had with Nvidia, the prevailing sentiment was that the 4090 was an 8K card, that happened to be good for AI due to vram requirements from 8K gaming. However, I’m a AAA gamedev CTO and they might have been telling me what the card means to me.
- ziml77 2y agoI do recall an 8K push but I thought that was on the 3090 (and was conditional on DLSS doing the heavy lifting). I don't remember any general marketing about the 4090 being an 8K card but I could very well have missed it or be mixing things up! I mean it does make sense to market it for 8K since anyone who is trying to drive that many pixels when gaming probably has deep pockets.
- ryao 2y agoI recall the 3090 8K marketing too. However, I also recall Nvidia talking about 8K in reference to the 4090: https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/technologies/8k/ https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/technologies/8k/ That said, I recall that the media was more enthusiastic about christening the 4090 as an 8K card than Nvidia was: https://wccftech.com/rtx-4090-is-the-first-true-8k-gaming-gpu-according-to-benchmarks/ https://wccftech.com/rtx-4090-is-the-first-true-8k-gaming-gp...
- ryao 2y agoI recall them making the same claims about the 3090: https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/geforce-rtx-3090-8k-hdr-gaming/ https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/geforce-rtx-3090-8...
- simondotau 2y agoNvidia is also clearly differentiating the 5090 as the gaming card for people who want the best and an extra thousand dollars is a rounding error. They could have sold it for $1500 and still made big coin, but no doubt the extra $500 is pure wealth tax. It probably serves to make the 4070 look reasonably priced, even though it isn't.
- ryao 2y agoLeaks indicate that the PCB has 14 layers with a 512-bit memory bus. It also has 32GB of GDDR7 memory and the die size is expected to be huge. This is all expensive. Would you prefer that they had not made the card and instead made a lesser card that was cheaper to make to avoid the higher price? That is the AMD strategy and they have lower prices.
- simondotau 2y agoThat PCB is probably a few dollars per unit. The die is probably the same as the one in the 5070. I've no doubt it's an expensive product to build, but that doesn't mean the price is cost plus markup.
- ryao 2y agoCurrently, the 5070 is expected to use the GB205 die while the 5090 is expected to use the GB202 die: https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/geforce-rtx-5070.c4218 https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/geforce-rtx-5070.c4218 https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/geforce-rtx-5090.c4216 https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/geforce-rtx-5090.c4216 It is unlikely that the 5070 and 5090 share the same die when the 4090 and 4080 did not share same die. Also, could an electrical engineer estimate how much this costs to manufacture: https://videocardz.com/newz/nvidia-geforce-rtx-5090-pcb-leak-reveals-massive-gb202-gpu-package https://videocardz.com/newz/nvidia-geforce-rtx-5090-pcb-leak...
- positr0n 2y agoIs the last link wrong? It doesn't mention cost.
- ryao 2y agoThe 3090 and 3090 Ti both support software ECC. I assume that the 4090 has it too. That alone positions the xx90 as a pseudo-professional card.
- gregoryl 2y agoThe 4090 indeed does have ecc support
- sliken 2y agoYes, but ECC is inline, so it costs bandwidth and memory capacity.
- fulafel 2y agoDoesn't it always. (Except sometimes on some hw you can't turn it off)
- sliken 2y agoI believe the cards that are intended for compute instead of GPU default to ECC being on and report memory performance with the overheads included.
- FuriouslyAdrift 2y agoAnything with DDR5 or above has built in limited ECC... it's required by the spec. https://www.corsair.com/us/en/explorer/diy-builder/memory/is-ddr5-ecc-memory/ https://www.corsair.com/us/en/explorer/diy-builder/memory/is...
- sliken 2y agoSure, but it's very limited. It doesn't detect or fix errors in the dimm (outside the chips), motherboard traces, CPU socket, or CPU.
- lz400 2y agoHow will a 5090 compare against project digits? now that they're both in the front page :)
- IiOmegaI 2y agoDon't forget that you can link for example two 'Digits' together (~256 GB) if you want to run even larger models or have larger context size. That is 2x$3000 vs 8x$2000. This will make it possible for you to run models up to 405B parameters, like Llama 3.1 405B at 4bit quant or the Grok-1 314B at 6bit quant. Who knows, maybe some better models will be released in the future which are better optimized and won't need that much RAM, but it is easier to buy a second 'Digits' in comparison to building a rack with 8xGPUs. For example, if you look at the latest Llama models, Meta states: 'Llama 3.3 70B approaches the performance of Llama 3.1 405B'. To interfere with Llama3.3-70B-Instruct with ~8k context length (without offloading), you'd need: - Q4 (~44GB): 2x5090; 1x 'Digits' - Q6 (~58GB): 2x5090; 1x 'Digits' - Q8 (~74GB): 3x5090; 1x 'Digits' - FP16 (~144GB): 5x5090; 2x 'Digits' Let's wait and see which bandwidth it will have.
- lz400 2y ago> bandwidth Speculation has it at ~5XXgb/s. agreed on the memory. if I can I'll get a few but I fear they'll sell out immediately
- ryao 2y agoWe will not really know until memory bandwidth and compute numbers are published. However, Project Digits seems like a successor to the NVIDIA Jetson AGX Orin 64GB Developer Kit, which was based on the Ampere architecture and has 204.8GB/sec memory bandwidth: https://www.okdo.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/jetson-agx-orin-64GB-developer-kit-datasheet-web-us.pdf https://www.okdo.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/jetson-agx-o... The 3090 Ti had about 5 times the memory bandwidth and 5 times the compute capability. If that ratio holds for blackwell, the 5090 will run circles around it when it has enough VRAM (or you have enough 5090 cards to fit everything into VRAM).
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- whalesalad 2y agoIt’s the same pricing from last year. This already happened.
- oliwarner 2y agoThe only difference is scalar. That isn't differentiating, that's segregation. It won't stop crypto and LLM peeps from buying everything (one assumes TDP is proportional too). Gamers not being able to find an affordable option is still a problem.
- officeplant 2y ago>Gamers not being able to find an affordable option is still a problem. Used to think about this often because I had a side hobby of building and selling computers for friends and coworkers that wanted to get into gaming, but otherwise had no use for a powerful computer. For the longest time I could still put together $800-$1000 PC's that could blow consoles away and provide great value for the money. Now days I almost want to recommend they go back to console gaming. Seeing older ps5's on store shelves hit $349.99 during the holidays really cemented that idea. Its so astronomically expensive for a PC build at the moment unless you can be convinced to buy a gaming laptop on a deep sale.
- dolni 2y agoOne edge that PCs have is massive catalog. Consoles have historically not done so well with backwards compatibility (at most one generation). I don't do much console gaming but _I think_ that is changing. There is also something to be said about catalog portability via something like a Steam Deck.
- officeplant 2y agoCheaper options like the Steam Deck are definitely a boon to the industry. Especially the idea of "good enough" gaming at lower resolutions on smaller screens. Personally, I just don't like that its attached to steam. Which is why I can be hesitant to suggest consoles as well now that they have soft killed their physical game options. Unless you go out of your way to get the add-on drive for PS5, etc Its been nice to see backwards compatibility coming back in modern consoles to some extent with Xbox especially if you have a Series-X with the disc drive. I killed my steam account with 300+ games just because I didn't see a future where steam would actually let me own the games. Repurchased everything I could on GoG and gave up on games locked to Windows/Mac AppStores, Epic, and Steam. So I'm not exactly fond of hardware attached to that platform, but that doesn't stop someone from just loading it up with games from a service like GoG and running them thru steam or Heroic Launcher. 2024 took some massive leaps forward with getting a proton-like experience without steam and that gives me a lot of hope for future progress on Linux gaming.
- ffsm8 2y agoThe price of a 4090 already was ~1800-2400€ where I live (not scalper prices, the normal online Shops) We'll have to see how much they'll charge for these cards this time, but I feel like the price bump has been massively exaggerated by people on HN
- BigJ1211 2y agoMSRP went from 1959,- to 2369,-. That's quite the increase.
- ffsm8 2y agoThe 4090 MSRP was 1600 https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/graphics-cards/40-series/rtx-4090/ https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/graphics-cards/40-serie... The cards were then sold around that ballpark you said, but that was because the shops could and they didn't say no to more profit. We will have to wait to see what arbitrary prices the shops will set this time. If they're not just randomly adding 400+ on top, then the card would cost roughly the same.
- ncr100 2y agoKind of wondering if nVidia will pull a Dell and copy Apple renaming 5070, 5070 Ti, 5080, 5090 to 5000, 5000 Plus, 5000 Pro, 5000 Pro Max. :O