4 ms·

I live in Ottawa. We were failed by all levels of government, our police services, and our intelligence services. The convoy drove across the country, broadcas

by clwg 2y ago

I live in Ottawa. We were failed by all levels of government, our police services, and our intelligence services. The convoy drove across the country, broadcasting their intentions on social media. Yet, everyone acted shocked when they did exactly what they said they were going to do. I hesitate to call them protesters because I don't think they had a permit or a cohesive message beside F* Trudeau, but they were completely disrespectful to other citizens, and I could never defend their actions. However, irrespective of how unpopular their actions were, the courts have deemed the federal government's response unreasonable and unconstitutional, and I agree with that assessment. The government could have dealt with this earlier and more directly, but whatever passes for "leadership" these days in Canada has proven itself completely inept. Personally, I would like to see an inquiry into foreign interference in our elections, but I guess that’s not considered a pressing issue anymore.

NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
>I hesitate to call them protesters because I don't think they had a permit or a cohesive message beside F* Trudeau I would assert that so-called "votes of no-confidence" in politicians are legitimate protest, even if they do not criticize any specific policy or behavior. It would be a strange world to live in where protests could or would be shut down and everyone would taunt the protesters with "but you didn't have a cohesive message except Stalin is bad".
- eumenides1 2y ago
  There is a giant chasm between "F* Trudeau" and "Stalin is bad". Some people would like you to believe it's close, and they would be wrong. Stalin murdered/tortured people en masse. Trudeau oversaw a government (democratically elected mine you) through a once in a century pandemic. The convoy of protesters made a point, was allow to make it for sufficient period of time, and was told to go away when a majority of Canadians didn't agree with their stance. When faced with reality of their unpopular nature and their inability to build a momentum or consensus. They dug in. At some point, enough is enough. The Pandemic ended, public heath was restore, and none of what the protesters did mattered. None of the protesters continue to be persecuted by the Government of Canada, Ontario, or the City.
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
    >There is a giant chasm between "F* Trudeau" and "Stalin is bad". There might well be a giant chasm between Trudeau and Stalin, that's a matter of proper objective measurement which I don't think is easy and certainly has never been done. There is no chasm whatsoever between "fuck Trudeau" and "Stalin is bad". Not even much semantically. In choosing one politician/bureaucrat/whatever over another, I do not agree that anyone ever need justify their choices. Someone saying "I've stopped supporting this politician" whether don't politely or rudely, is valid. Protesting need not have any more message than this. If protesting did require something more sophisticated than the assertion that one no longer supports them, then the weaseliest politicians and other charlatans could abuse that requirement (in fact, they already try to do so, and apologists make that easier for them to attempt it). >and was told to go away when a majority of Canadians didn't agree with their stance. It's unclear that a majority disagreed. It's unclear to me that there remains a majority at all in Canada. >When faced with reality of their unpopular nature and their inability to build a momentum or consensus. They dug in. Again, I'm not sure that's reality. If they could be deluded into thinking there were more of them than there were, what makes you immune to the reverse? >and none of what the protesters did mattered. We at least agree that it didn't matter in the ways that they hoped. But it mattered otherwise, when we saw the Canadian government use unjustifiable tactics to punish them even before they had been convicted of any crimes. >None of the protesters continue to be persecuted Well gee. When you put it like that, that "none *continue* to be persecuted" the complaints do sound kind of silly.
selfmodruntime 2y ago
> I hesitate to call them protesters because I don't think they had a permit The notion that the common people need permission to protest is exactly why we are slowly, but surely arriving at oligarchies. The French are right. You don't need permission to show the ruling class who's king.
- clwg 2y ago
  Perhaps bad phrasing, it is an emotional issue having lived through it. I like to think that I don't live in a country ruled by a King but rather in a community of citizens who have collectively agreed on a way of doing things. This includes the right to express dissent against other citizens to whom we have delegated certain decision-making responsibilities. A permit isn't about seeking permission; it's about ensuring an orderly process so that things don't devolve into chaos and bouncy castles. At the time, I think we were also in stage 2 lockdown(which should have been enough to stop it), so the people bearing the brunt of these actions, whatever you want to label it as, were not the ones making those decisions. Our elected officials don't live inside Parliament Hill.
  - JellyBeanThief 2y ago
    > A permit isn't about seeking permission Then they need to be renamed.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - clwg 2y ago
      In Canada, we have the inherent right to assemble as granted by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms; therefore, I don’t need permission, which is discretionary. Permits in this context represent authorization that establishes procedures for exercising this right on property administered by government, which ensure things like public safety without infringing on any rights or freedoms of the protestors or other citizens.
rXoX 2y ago
[dead]
dennis_jeeves2 2y ago
>I hesitate to call them protesters because I don't think they had a permit or a cohesive message beside What exactly would you do if you were a trucker? i.e your livelihood has been denied for a long time?

by clwg 2y ago

NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago

>I hesitate to call them protesters because I don't think they had a permit or a cohesive message beside F* Trudeau I would assert that so-called "votes of no-confidence" in politicians are legitimate protest, even if they do not criticize any specific policy or behavior. It would be a strange world to live in where protests could or would be shut down and everyone would taunt the protesters with "but you didn't have a cohesive message except Stalin is bad".

eumenides1 2y ago
There is a giant chasm between "F* Trudeau" and "Stalin is bad". Some people would like you to believe it's close, and they would be wrong. Stalin murdered/tortured people en masse. Trudeau oversaw a government (democratically elected mine you) through a once in a century pandemic. The convoy of protesters made a point, was allow to make it for sufficient period of time, and was told to go away when a majority of Canadians didn't agree with their stance. When faced with reality of their unpopular nature and their inability to build a momentum or consensus. They dug in. At some point, enough is enough. The Pandemic ended, public heath was restore, and none of what the protesters did mattered. None of the protesters continue to be persecuted by the Government of Canada, Ontario, or the City.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
  >There is a giant chasm between "F* Trudeau" and "Stalin is bad". There might well be a giant chasm between Trudeau and Stalin, that's a matter of proper objective measurement which I don't think is easy and certainly has never been done. There is no chasm whatsoever between "fuck Trudeau" and "Stalin is bad". Not even much semantically. In choosing one politician/bureaucrat/whatever over another, I do not agree that anyone ever need justify their choices. Someone saying "I've stopped supporting this politician" whether don't politely or rudely, is valid. Protesting need not have any more message than this. If protesting did require something more sophisticated than the assertion that one no longer supports them, then the weaseliest politicians and other charlatans could abuse that requirement (in fact, they already try to do so, and apologists make that easier for them to attempt it). >and was told to go away when a majority of Canadians didn't agree with their stance. It's unclear that a majority disagreed. It's unclear to me that there remains a majority at all in Canada. >When faced with reality of their unpopular nature and their inability to build a momentum or consensus. They dug in. Again, I'm not sure that's reality. If they could be deluded into thinking there were more of them than there were, what makes you immune to the reverse? >and none of what the protesters did mattered. We at least agree that it didn't matter in the ways that they hoped. But it mattered otherwise, when we saw the Canadian government use unjustifiable tactics to punish them even before they had been convicted of any crimes. >None of the protesters continue to be persecuted Well gee. When you put it like that, that "none *continue* to be persecuted" the complaints do sound kind of silly.

selfmodruntime 2y ago

> I hesitate to call them protesters because I don't think they had a permit The notion that the common people need permission to protest is exactly why we are slowly, but surely arriving at oligarchies. The French are right. You don't need permission to show the ruling class who's king.

clwg 2y ago
Perhaps bad phrasing, it is an emotional issue having lived through it. I like to think that I don't live in a country ruled by a King but rather in a community of citizens who have collectively agreed on a way of doing things. This includes the right to express dissent against other citizens to whom we have delegated certain decision-making responsibilities. A permit isn't about seeking permission; it's about ensuring an orderly process so that things don't devolve into chaos and bouncy castles. At the time, I think we were also in stage 2 lockdown(which should have been enough to stop it), so the people bearing the brunt of these actions, whatever you want to label it as, were not the ones making those decisions. Our elected officials don't live inside Parliament Hill.
- JellyBeanThief 2y ago
  > A permit isn't about seeking permission Then they need to be renamed.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - clwg 2y ago
    In Canada, we have the inherent right to assemble as granted by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms; therefore, I don’t need permission, which is discretionary. Permits in this context represent authorization that establishes procedures for exercising this right on property administered by government, which ensure things like public safety without infringing on any rights or freedoms of the protestors or other citizens.

rXoX 2y ago

[dead]

dennis_jeeves2 2y ago

>I hesitate to call them protesters because I don't think they had a permit or a cohesive message beside What exactly would you do if you were a trucker? i.e your livelihood has been denied for a long time?