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This is a good idea in theory but potentially bad in execution. What I'd like (and I suspect many other developers would too) is a nice laptop that I can insta
by acabal 14y ago
This is a good idea in theory but potentially bad in execution.
What I'd like (and I suspect many other developers would too) is a nice laptop that I can install Linux on, and have it Just Work.
What it looks like Dell is providing is a nice laptop, but with a custom build of Ubuntu installed. If Dell's Windows installs are any indication, that means it's going to be loaded with crapware or custom non-OSS drivers. This is just speculation, but the fact that you can't dual-boot Windows on it is a big hint. Who knows what crapware they're going to load up on it, and then you'll be tied to their special brand of Ubuntu if you want upgrades or support.
What Dell should do instead is work with hardware manufacturers to iron out Linux driver bugs for just one nice laptop. Then sell that laptop with a stock Ubuntu build and let developers go to town. I'd pay a lot of money for something like that. Instead, today I have to buy a cheap Dell laptop, install Ubuntu, and deal with the driver headaches that exist to this day. (And don't tell me Linux is a magical fairy land because it Works For You, because it doesn't Just Work for me. It hasn't for years and it still doesn't today.)
- krakensden 14y agothey provide an iso that will Just Work(tm) on their 13 inch ultrabook today. They look nice, maybe you should get one.
- acabal 14y agoYeah but that's the problem... I don't want a special mystery Dell ISO, I want to use stock Ubuntu and have it Just Work. Using Dell's ISO locks you in to that certain image (upgrades are very likely dependent on Dell), it locks you in to Dell support (good luck posting in the Ubuntu forums about your super-special Dell ISO), and it almost certainly means they're not contributing back to the OSS community (though that's not so much a pain point as it is a general gripe).
- Ralith 14y agoWhy do you assume it's so "super-special"? I doubt they'd have the rights to call it Ubuntu if it didn't have the standard package manager configuration pulling updates from Canonical.
- fierarul 14y agoThe OP's argument is precisely about the fact that they shouldn't provide any ISO at all! Just make sure your ultrabook is Ubuntu-certified or something and let people install the official version.
- glesica 14y agoThey could just get the hardware Ubuntu certified, literally. It might actually cost Dell less, too. Of course everyone wants their own "ecosystem", so maybe they'd rather just lose the customers if they can't lock them in. http://www.ubuntu.com/certification/ http://www.ubuntu.com/certification/
- acdanger 14y agoI'm wondering if these might be a better route than what Dell is proposing: http://zareason.com/shop/Laptops/ http://zareason.com/shop/Laptops/
- hell0_th3r3 14y agoi love zareason and system76, but neither of them ship an ultrabook yet, although i sincerely hope they are working on it
- rch 14y agoThanks for this link - I have been searching for hardware along these lines for quite some time.
- ryangee 14y agoDon't forget System76. Their offerings are a bit slim at the moment since the line is being updated to Ivy Bridge: https://www.system76.com/laptops/ https://www.system76.com/laptops/ Or Ohava: http://www.ohava.com/openbook http://www.ohava.com/openbook
- rch 14y agoMy only problem with System76 is their focus on Ubuntu. I'm sure it is fine, and I am happy it is out there, but it isn't ideal for me. Ohava is new to me though - thanks!
- mgurlitz 14y ago> George said the laptop won’t be able to dual boot Windows. But Dell made available an Ubuntu install image customized for the XPS13, so you could buy the Windows version and install Ubuntu yourself if you require dual booting. They probably don't mean the laptop "can't dual-boot Windows," but that it requires extra steps in deleting Linux, installing Windows, then installing Linux.
- lucian1900 14y agoThere's almost certainly no need to delete linux first: just install windows and then fix the bootloader.
- jshen 14y ago"What I'd like (and I suspect many other developers would too) is a nice laptop that I can install Linux on, and have it Just Work." Well, the first thing I want is for it to just work. Sleep/Wake should just work. The trackpad should just work. Etc. Oh, and it should all work well. After that I would love to be able to install some other version of linux and have it just work, but having a Dell version that just works is a big improvement over things not just working.
- tammer 14y agoAgain, it's all perspective. iPads just work, closed game consoles just work. Linux can just work (until the next update) but a lot of the time it doesn't. And that's just the way I like it, because in the end (for me), its the only OS I can configure to such a degree that it lets me "just work".
- jshen 14y agoI'd rather have my trackpad, sound, sleep/wake, graphics driver, etc ... work out of the box than to have an extreme degree of configurability. You are right, this is my perspective, but for Dell it's also a matter of numbers. Which direction, if they can't do both now, will sell more laptops, cause fewer returns, etc.
- jebblue 14y agoThat stuff works as well as it does on Windows 7 (I'm forced to use Windows 7 at the moment on a contract); everything you named is as reliable, IMHO.
- user49598 14y agoThe majority of new laptops work out of the box with ubuntu 12.04. The driver complaint, while still fair in many cases, is not nearly as relevant as it used to be. Peripherals can be tough, but built-in hardware has come a long way. Also, IMHO, weather dell is doing exactly what you want or not, they are continuing to support freedom of choice, freedom of software, and the hacker community in general. I commend them for the effort, and would love to see other vendors follow suit.
- mark_l_watson 14y agoI agree. I have installed 12.04 on an old i5 Toshiba u505 and a 13" MacBook Pro (wiped OS X since I have OS X on my Air, and an old backup MacBook). I don't remember having any problems.
- joezydeco 14y agoSo, and I'm honestly curious here because I'm in the market, what is the best Linux laptop out there? I hear people swoon over a particular Lenovo/Thinkpad model, but have no idea which one it is.
- scarmig 14y agoRight now I'm on an x220. IIR I had some acpi driver issue--in fact, had to manually white list my model in it--and power management is mediocre, even with powertop. But it gets the job done decently enough.
- candeira 14y agoI too have a Lenovo x220. I use Jupiter [0] to manually send the computer to "power saving" mode. With that and the extended 9-cell battery, the screen only slightly dimmed, and wifi at full blast, I get around 7 hours of battery doing browsing and coding. I uninstalled Flash, and that gave me back around 2 hours of battery. [0] YMMV: http://askubuntu.com/questions/98972/does-jupiter-really-improves-battery-power http://askubuntu.com/questions/98972/does-jupiter-really-imp...
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- leviathant 14y ago>If Dell's Windows installs are any indication, that means it's going to be loaded with crapware or custom non-OSS drivers. I don't know how long it's been since you've bought a Dell Win PC, but they aren't 'loaded' with crapware, not like it used to be. I just got an XPS 8300 from the Outlet, and all I had to do was remove McAffee and the Dell Support Suite. I went into Add/Remove Programs, uninstalled each, and shortly thereafter, it might as well have been a fresh install of Windows.
- morsch 14y agoI doubt there is any crapware or really, and significant software difference in the Dell version beyond a desktop link. It seems extremely unlikely to me that they're doing much in terms of software customization. I'm sure you could get the laptop to dual-boot -- what are they going to do, modify GRUB2? --, but you'd need somewhere to install the other OS. What they could do and which would be bad is use some sort of component which requires a non-free driver that's not supported well/anymore (so you're stuck with Ubuntu 12.x) or non-redistributable (ie. only available as part of Dell's iso). Let's say they ship a 100% proprietary and non-redistributable driver for NVIDIA's Optimus. But that seems very unlikely (if somewhat hilarous). And other than that I can't imagine any reason why you'd have any issue installing any other Linux distribution.
- pjmlp 14y agoThis is the differentiation of OEMs at play here, they will just apply the same crapware they have been installing on Windows, on Linux as well. If the OS and hardware are not from the same vendor, this is always bound to happen.
- davidw 14y agoI got one of the original Linux Dells with Ubuntu on it back in the day, and it was a nice effort, actually. I opened up the box, fired it up, and it was a fairly standard Ubuntu that I kept using without having to fiddle with it all. It was a very pleasant experience, and sold me on Dell. I'll be in the market for a new laptop next summer, so hopefully this goes well. My big worry is finding another machine with a screen like this one (1920x1200, 15"), as I've gotten used to the screen real estate.
- kruk 14y agoI don't think you can buy those anymore, unless you go for an old one. The last Dell with 16:10 screen was M6500, I believe. Now the best you can hope for is 1920x1080.
- jlarocco 14y agoThat's been possible for a long time on Dell laptops. I've had 3 Dell laptops running Linux and I've never had a problem. Recently I've been using Mint, but before that I used Debian and before that Slackware. The biggest problem I ever had is that some of the wireless drivers had to be installed via module-assistant, which is annoying. Also, I couldn't get accelerated OpenGL on one of them, but that was due to an ancient video card that was unsupported even on Windows at that point. I will admit they were second hand laptops, so maybe the bugs were worked out in the time between their being released and my buying them.
- 1zq 14y agoI bought one of the Dell laptops that came with Ubuntu a few years ago and I'm typing this on it. I simply installed stock Ubuntu immediately after receiving it due to the same fear of crapware. But still, having it come with Ubuntu preinstalled means I knew all the hardware would work, as it has so far. Also it means I voted with my dollars for wider adoption of Linux by vendors.
- truncate 14y agoThough most laptops I tried worked out of box with Ubuntu, I still agree that there are lot of work that can be done for drivers. I recently got my sister a laptop. She is non-tech but is perfectly comfortable with Ubuntu. The only problem she faced was with driver for the 3G USB data card she had. I'm hopeful if laptop vendors push Linux, it will solve such little issues with time too. One thing that always bothered me is that its has always been hard to get a decent laptop without Windows. I hate paying for Windows which I had no use of, and got that removed as soon as I bought laptops. Even if I may not use Dell's install of Ubuntu and replace it with my own choice of distribution, I wouldn't mind them shipping Ubuntu, as overall I'm hopeful this would push hardware vendors to get more serious about Linux drivers overall.