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Can you name a similarly wealthy country that is actually better today than it was on the date he started as a PM? I can't. Seems like something else has been

by maeil 2y ago

Can you name a similarly wealthy country that is actually better today than it was on the date he started as a PM? I can't. Seems like something else has been going on. Potentially you could name Ireland, by becoming a tax haven, screwing over everyone else instead.

laidoffamazon 2y ago
America is, especially since 2021 but nobody wants to believe it.
- mlekoszek 2y ago
  Not sure why the parent comment is being downvoted. By most sources, the States has been the exception and not the rule post-pandemic. * https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/why-is-the-u-s-gdp-recovering-faster-than-other-advanced-economies-20240517.html https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/why-... * https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-us-recovery-from-covid-19-in-international-comparison/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-us-recovery-from-covi...
  - maeil 2y ago
    Because even HN, by nature, is still an incredibly US-centric place. And has historically been a very capital-focused place where the stock market and GDP are taken as the only serious indicators by which to measure whether a country is doing well. Both of these points have very slowly been changing here, but the downvotes show it's still largely the same. I spend my time between East-Asia and Europe, with one foot firmly in each of them, giving me a different perspective showing that Canada is the norm, not the outlier, which would be the US if there were to be one. I still didn't expect it though, I thought here people would realize authoritarians aren't being voted in everywhere because the populace think things have been improving.
    - laidoffamazon 2y ago
      There’s nothing wrong with America that would necessitate the gloom certain less informed quarters of the populace have. Nothing.
      - c0redump 2y ago
        Do you not recognize the fact that housing affordability is at a record low? Do you not connect this to low rates of family formation? I’m not sure how much more obvious these issues could be. I’m even more unsure of why you’re flat out denying them. The only reasonable explanation is that it’s related to some deeply held ideology or dogma of yours.
- c0redump 2y ago
  Depends who you are, I guess. If you’re a young person who is not financially stable enough to form a family because of high housing prices, then you would disagree. If you’re a relatively well-off person with assets like real estate and equities, then you’re quite happy. It’s all a matter of perspective. I myself am doing quite well financially, but I am still quite unhappy with the current situation because of the devastating effects of inflation and increased housing costs specifically, have had on younger generations (despite the fact that it financially benefits me personally)
  - laidoffamazon 2y ago
    Frankly a major skill issue. I know lots of people that have no problem doing that. These are state school and community college educated folks I went to high school with.
    - c0redump 2y ago
      What is a skill issue? It is not clear to me what your comment is referring to.
  - 3vidence 2y ago
    Take that problem in the states an multiply it by 3x in Canada. Lower Income, High Prices, Less Options. I'm in a similar position that I'm personally doing okay but almost everyone I grew up with has had to either leave Canada for the US, had to live with their parents into their 30s or more to very remote / rural areas to afford life.
- tokioyoyo 2y ago
  If nobody believes it, then is it actually true?
  - AnarchismIsCool 2y ago
    Well, that is the ultimate philosophical rabbit hole. If everyone is doing better objectively but have been hammered with propaganda so much that they subjectively believe they're doing worse, how do you square that? I'd argue there's an easy solution in getting rid of the propagandists that are making everyone sad, so twitter, facebook etc.
    - tokioyoyo 2y ago
      Agreed, it’s a rabbit hole, so nobody is right. I’m just on the camp of — if people feel that they’re worse off than before, then telling them how “they have to feel better because of objective facts” won’t cut it.
      - laidoffamazon 2y ago
        Coddling people for being wrong doesn’t seem like a scalable solution here.
- adverbly 2y ago
  Wrong date. He was PM 2015.
- zahlman 2y ago
  Have you ever tried talking to the people who don't believe it, and showing them what their own lives were like in 2021? Are you successful this way? Have you considered the possibility that the metrics we use to decide whether "countries are better off" don't match the values of their citizens?
  - laidoffamazon 2y ago
    I think people that believe they were better off when they couldn’t go to the grocery store without a mask or thousands were dying of covid a day are delusional, frankly. But it does sometimes work if you remind them.
adverbly 2y ago
Since 2015? Easy: Norway, Poland, Greece, Netherlands, Ireland, Singapore, USA probably. But I do anecdotally agree with your point as a whole: it feels like there has been a slowing or potentially reversal of progress. Perhaps to be expected given the pandemic though.
- maeil 2y ago
  Easy? You've lived in each of those places for more than a year around 2015 and around now? Physically impossible. My second homebase is in one of the countries you named. I can tell you that not even 10% of the population would agree with you. Across the political spectrum. No idea that you're basing it on. Crumbling infrastructure, housing worse than Canada, ever increasing problems with immigration. The US I could potentially agree with, it is the outlier, though debatable. Ireland I talked about. Norway is laughable to bring up, sorry. Might as well bring up Saudi Arabia. If you'd been to Poland and Greece you'd know they're nowhere near "similarly wealthy" countries wrt Canada, entirely different tier. This reveals you haven't really spent time there. Singapore is a city-state. I'm sure we can find a city in Canada that's doing better. And from what I know, Singaporeans too are majority unhappy with their country compared to 2015, so not sure what you're basing it on.

by maeil 2y ago

laidoffamazon 2y ago

America is, especially since 2021 but nobody wants to believe it.

mlekoszek 2y ago
Not sure why the parent comment is being downvoted. By most sources, the States has been the exception and not the rule post-pandemic. * https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/why-is-the-u-s-gdp-recovering-faster-than-other-advanced-economies-20240517.html https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/why-... * https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-us-recovery-from-covid-19-in-international-comparison/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-us-recovery-from-covi...
- maeil 2y ago
  Because even HN, by nature, is still an incredibly US-centric place. And has historically been a very capital-focused place where the stock market and GDP are taken as the only serious indicators by which to measure whether a country is doing well. Both of these points have very slowly been changing here, but the downvotes show it's still largely the same. I spend my time between East-Asia and Europe, with one foot firmly in each of them, giving me a different perspective showing that Canada is the norm, not the outlier, which would be the US if there were to be one. I still didn't expect it though, I thought here people would realize authoritarians aren't being voted in everywhere because the populace think things have been improving.
  - laidoffamazon 2y ago
    There’s nothing wrong with America that would necessitate the gloom certain less informed quarters of the populace have. Nothing.
    - c0redump 2y ago
      Do you not recognize the fact that housing affordability is at a record low? Do you not connect this to low rates of family formation? I’m not sure how much more obvious these issues could be. I’m even more unsure of why you’re flat out denying them. The only reasonable explanation is that it’s related to some deeply held ideology or dogma of yours.
c0redump 2y ago
Depends who you are, I guess. If you’re a young person who is not financially stable enough to form a family because of high housing prices, then you would disagree. If you’re a relatively well-off person with assets like real estate and equities, then you’re quite happy. It’s all a matter of perspective. I myself am doing quite well financially, but I am still quite unhappy with the current situation because of the devastating effects of inflation and increased housing costs specifically, have had on younger generations (despite the fact that it financially benefits me personally)
- laidoffamazon 2y ago
  Frankly a major skill issue. I know lots of people that have no problem doing that. These are state school and community college educated folks I went to high school with.
  - c0redump 2y ago
    What is a skill issue? It is not clear to me what your comment is referring to.
- 3vidence 2y ago
  Take that problem in the states an multiply it by 3x in Canada. Lower Income, High Prices, Less Options. I'm in a similar position that I'm personally doing okay but almost everyone I grew up with has had to either leave Canada for the US, had to live with their parents into their 30s or more to very remote / rural areas to afford life.
tokioyoyo 2y ago
If nobody believes it, then is it actually true?
- AnarchismIsCool 2y ago
  Well, that is the ultimate philosophical rabbit hole. If everyone is doing better objectively but have been hammered with propaganda so much that they subjectively believe they're doing worse, how do you square that? I'd argue there's an easy solution in getting rid of the propagandists that are making everyone sad, so twitter, facebook etc.
  - tokioyoyo 2y ago
    Agreed, it’s a rabbit hole, so nobody is right. I’m just on the camp of — if people feel that they’re worse off than before, then telling them how “they have to feel better because of objective facts” won’t cut it.
    - laidoffamazon 2y ago
      Coddling people for being wrong doesn’t seem like a scalable solution here.
adverbly 2y ago
Wrong date. He was PM 2015.
zahlman 2y ago
Have you ever tried talking to the people who don't believe it, and showing them what their own lives were like in 2021? Are you successful this way? Have you considered the possibility that the metrics we use to decide whether "countries are better off" don't match the values of their citizens?
- laidoffamazon 2y ago
  I think people that believe they were better off when they couldn’t go to the grocery store without a mask or thousands were dying of covid a day are delusional, frankly. But it does sometimes work if you remind them.

adverbly 2y ago

Since 2015? Easy: Norway, Poland, Greece, Netherlands, Ireland, Singapore, USA probably. But I do anecdotally agree with your point as a whole: it feels like there has been a slowing or potentially reversal of progress. Perhaps to be expected given the pandemic though.

maeil 2y ago
Easy? You've lived in each of those places for more than a year around 2015 and around now? Physically impossible. My second homebase is in one of the countries you named. I can tell you that not even 10% of the population would agree with you. Across the political spectrum. No idea that you're basing it on. Crumbling infrastructure, housing worse than Canada, ever increasing problems with immigration. The US I could potentially agree with, it is the outlier, though debatable. Ireland I talked about. Norway is laughable to bring up, sorry. Might as well bring up Saudi Arabia. If you'd been to Poland and Greece you'd know they're nowhere near "similarly wealthy" countries wrt Canada, entirely different tier. This reveals you haven't really spent time there. Singapore is a city-state. I'm sure we can find a city in Canada that's doing better. And from what I know, Singaporeans too are majority unhappy with their country compared to 2015, so not sure what you're basing it on.