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Even before clicking, I already knew it would be in China. It has been a while since the US or other western countries have done a major public infrastructure

Even before clicking, I already knew it would be in China. It has been a while since the US or other western countries have done a major public infrastructure project (compared to what have been done before). The US especially is lagging behind. How long has it been since the high speed rail system was proposed? China built a national network in less time than the US took to argue about how to build just one line between its two hub cities...

Mountain_Skies 2y ago
California is actively working on their high speed rail system. They're just doing it very slowly and at great expense.
- rapsey 2y ago
  Actively is a strong word for what California is doing with their high speed rail.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > California is actively working on their high speed rail system It's billions short on just the useless Merced-Bakersfield segment [1]. Given "its sole source of ongoing funds, from the state’s cap-and-trade program, expires in 2030," and there is zero chance of new federal funding through 2026 (and realistically, through at least 2028), the chances that this gets killed in its entirety are quite high. [1] https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/ca-high-speed-rail-100-billion-18979091.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/ca-high-speed-ra...
- wat10000 2y ago
  Taking orders of magnitude more time and money is very close to not doing it at all. China built a countrywide network in less time than California has spent so far on preparing to build this one line.
tokioyoyo 2y ago
Mostly North American problem, not Western. Europe is still building gigantic bridges, rails, ports and etc. Not as fast as China, but it still happens. US/Canada is stuck on financial engineering loop, instead of… engineering. Big things happen when it’s required, but it feels like there’s no public nor political appetite for it.
- rapsey 2y ago
  The UK is insanely fumbling their nuclear plant build.
  - Arnt 2y ago
    And the Thames tunnel, for which just the planning is likely to cost more than the complete construction of the world's longest, deepest undersea tunnel, which you may assume is being built in China? Not China. It's actually in Norway. Denmark is also building a giant tunnel, and Austria, Switzerland and Italy are active in the Alps.
  - bogtog 2y ago
    USA-UK comparisons are always tempting because the UK is English speaking, but my feeling is that the UK is in such disarray that its not a good European reference point
- brightball 2y ago
  If you look at it from a government project standpoint, there’s still the James Webb Telescope which is a monumental achievement IMO. Outside of that, there’s plenty of private work having huge impacts like SpaceX and Starlink.
  - tokioyoyo 2y ago
    Much respect to SpaceX and NASA, and I understand their importance to long term impact. But that’s not exactly what we’re talking about. We have lost talent and expertise in making our countries better, and it takes billions of dollars to build a couple of km of subway lines. We refuse to make incremental upgrades and shoot for moonshots every time.
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
We're still doing megaprojects [1]. They're focussed on air and roads, in transportation; aerospace (defence and civil); and sports. > How long has it been since the high speed rail system was proposed? China built a national network in less time China's population distribution (and lack of strong-form property ownership) makes intercity passenger rail a lot easier than in America. We absolutely should have it in the Northeast. But it's unclear it makes sense almost anywhere else, other than as a drive-on drive-off system. (The case for municipal rail is much stronger.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_megaprojects#North_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_megaprojects#North_Ame...
- loloquwowndueo 2y ago
  Sports mega project? Heh, do tell more.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    Quite literally a section in the Wikipedia article.
    - loloquwowndueo 2y ago
      Aha, I’m just not sure a stadium has the same level of developmental or economic impact as a high-speed rail line, power generation, airports or road infrastructure. It’s also usually far less challenging: build new structure on old stadium’s parking lot, demolish old stadium and turn that into a parking lot, done. None of those new stadiums in the US even have the capacity of say Maracanã or Azteca, both built in the mid 20th century.
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > not sure a stadium has the same level of developmental or economic impact as a high-speed rail line, power generation, airports or road infrastructure They’re a total waste of money. But the point remains that America is adding power generation, roads and airport infrastructure at a fast clip. Given China has clearly overbuilt, it’s not clear how much of their non-power infrastructure is actually yielding.
belter 2y ago
Not that it makes for better policies in respect for human rights on their part...But most Chinese leaders are engineers and scientists in case you did not notice. And I mean real Engineers not Musk type engineers....
voisin 2y ago
British Columbia just finished Site C: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Site_C_dam https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Site_C_dam
nimbius 2y ago
the profit motive informs a lot of this in the United States, and as capitalism enters its later stages one can be forgiven for expecting great works projects from the nation. the US is declining as a superpower and neither has the collective willpower nor vision to execute something like high speed rail. anti socialist propaganda prevents a lot of this as well but on the whole this is normal; nations rise and fall over time. It bears remembering that Chinas communist party works in five year plans along thoughts (deng xiaopeng, xi jinping, mao zedong thought) to advance the primary state of socialism in the pursuit of communism. climate policy is actively factored into chinas GDP by the party. Since the 17th national congress china has clearly articulated plans for advanced manufacturing and green energy during plenary and study sessions that align with marxist leninist thinking. So while it may be tempting to attribute these massive green energy projects to chinese manufacturing power alone, its absolutely under the continued guidance of the communist partys mass line and central leadership committee and aligns with the governments objective of building a modern socialist society by the mid 21st century.
purple_turtle 2y ago
> It has been a while since the US or other western countries have done a major public infrastructure project (compared to what have been done before) how you define "major" here?
wat10000 2y ago
Agreed that the US is lagging behind in general, but I’m not sure if that matters here. I was under the impression that US hydroelectric capacity was already pretty much maxed out. All the good sites already have a dam.
fred_is_fred 2y ago
Of course it’s China, every river that could or should be dammed in the US already has been.
sliken 2y ago
Keep in mind that China is a large energy importer, so producing more power inside the country is of strategic importance, especially if you are planning a future war which is very likely to include sanctions. China imports a large amount of oil through the Straits of Malacca, which would be hard for China to defend against, especially with India's owned islands are so close. Also note that this dam is on a rather large river that goes into India, giving China a strategic advantage. Just because it makes sense in China does't mean it would make sense in the USA since the USA is an energy exporter, has generally lower population density, and is unlikely to invade or be invaded by any neighboring country.

Mountain_Skies 2y ago

California is actively working on their high speed rail system. They're just doing it very slowly and at great expense.

rapsey 2y ago
Actively is a strong word for what California is doing with their high speed rail.
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> California is actively working on their high speed rail system It's billions short on just the useless Merced-Bakersfield segment [1]. Given "its sole source of ongoing funds, from the state’s cap-and-trade program, expires in 2030," and there is zero chance of new federal funding through 2026 (and realistically, through at least 2028), the chances that this gets killed in its entirety are quite high. [1] https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/ca-high-speed-rail-100-billion-18979091.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/ca-high-speed-ra...
wat10000 2y ago
Taking orders of magnitude more time and money is very close to not doing it at all. China built a countrywide network in less time than California has spent so far on preparing to build this one line.

tokioyoyo 2y ago

Mostly North American problem, not Western. Europe is still building gigantic bridges, rails, ports and etc. Not as fast as China, but it still happens. US/Canada is stuck on financial engineering loop, instead of… engineering. Big things happen when it’s required, but it feels like there’s no public nor political appetite for it.

rapsey 2y ago
The UK is insanely fumbling their nuclear plant build.
- Arnt 2y ago
  And the Thames tunnel, for which just the planning is likely to cost more than the complete construction of the world's longest, deepest undersea tunnel, which you may assume is being built in China? Not China. It's actually in Norway. Denmark is also building a giant tunnel, and Austria, Switzerland and Italy are active in the Alps.
- bogtog 2y ago
  USA-UK comparisons are always tempting because the UK is English speaking, but my feeling is that the UK is in such disarray that its not a good European reference point
brightball 2y ago
If you look at it from a government project standpoint, there’s still the James Webb Telescope which is a monumental achievement IMO. Outside of that, there’s plenty of private work having huge impacts like SpaceX and Starlink.
- tokioyoyo 2y ago
  Much respect to SpaceX and NASA, and I understand their importance to long term impact. But that’s not exactly what we’re talking about. We have lost talent and expertise in making our countries better, and it takes billions of dollars to build a couple of km of subway lines. We refuse to make incremental upgrades and shoot for moonshots every time.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

We're still doing megaprojects [1]. They're focussed on air and roads, in transportation; aerospace (defence and civil); and sports. > How long has it been since the high speed rail system was proposed? China built a national network in less time China's population distribution (and lack of strong-form property ownership) makes intercity passenger rail a lot easier than in America. We absolutely should have it in the Northeast. But it's unclear it makes sense almost anywhere else, other than as a drive-on drive-off system. (The case for municipal rail is much stronger.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_megaprojects#North_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_megaprojects#North_Ame...

loloquwowndueo 2y ago
Sports mega project? Heh, do tell more.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  Quite literally a section in the Wikipedia article.
  - loloquwowndueo 2y ago
    Aha, I’m just not sure a stadium has the same level of developmental or economic impact as a high-speed rail line, power generation, airports or road infrastructure. It’s also usually far less challenging: build new structure on old stadium’s parking lot, demolish old stadium and turn that into a parking lot, done. None of those new stadiums in the US even have the capacity of say Maracanã or Azteca, both built in the mid 20th century.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > not sure a stadium has the same level of developmental or economic impact as a high-speed rail line, power generation, airports or road infrastructure They’re a total waste of money. But the point remains that America is adding power generation, roads and airport infrastructure at a fast clip. Given China has clearly overbuilt, it’s not clear how much of their non-power infrastructure is actually yielding.

belter 2y ago

Not that it makes for better policies in respect for human rights on their part...But most Chinese leaders are engineers and scientists in case you did not notice. And I mean real Engineers not Musk type engineers....

voisin 2y ago

British Columbia just finished Site C: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Site_C_dam https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Site_C_dam

nimbius 2y ago

the profit motive informs a lot of this in the United States, and as capitalism enters its later stages one can be forgiven for expecting great works projects from the nation. the US is declining as a superpower and neither has the collective willpower nor vision to execute something like high speed rail. anti socialist propaganda prevents a lot of this as well but on the whole this is normal; nations rise and fall over time. It bears remembering that Chinas communist party works in five year plans along thoughts (deng xiaopeng, xi jinping, mao zedong thought) to advance the primary state of socialism in the pursuit of communism. climate policy is actively factored into chinas GDP by the party. Since the 17th national congress china has clearly articulated plans for advanced manufacturing and green energy during plenary and study sessions that align with marxist leninist thinking. So while it may be tempting to attribute these massive green energy projects to chinese manufacturing power alone, its absolutely under the continued guidance of the communist partys mass line and central leadership committee and aligns with the governments objective of building a modern socialist society by the mid 21st century.

purple_turtle 2y ago

> It has been a while since the US or other western countries have done a major public infrastructure project (compared to what have been done before) how you define "major" here?

wat10000 2y ago

Agreed that the US is lagging behind in general, but I’m not sure if that matters here. I was under the impression that US hydroelectric capacity was already pretty much maxed out. All the good sites already have a dam.

fred_is_fred 2y ago

Of course it’s China, every river that could or should be dammed in the US already has been.

sliken 2y ago

Keep in mind that China is a large energy importer, so producing more power inside the country is of strategic importance, especially if you are planning a future war which is very likely to include sanctions. China imports a large amount of oil through the Straits of Malacca, which would be hard for China to defend against, especially with India's owned islands are so close. Also note that this dam is on a rather large river that goes into India, giving China a strategic advantage. Just because it makes sense in China does't mean it would make sense in the USA since the USA is an energy exporter, has generally lower population density, and is unlikely to invade or be invaded by any neighboring country.