6 ms·
> For instance, compared to an EUV system employing a 250-watt light source, Canon estimates NIL consumes just one-tenth the energy. I'm not an expert on this
by sva_ 2y ago
> For instance, compared to an EUV system employing a 250-watt light source, Canon estimates NIL consumes just one-tenth the energy.
I'm not an expert on this but feel like a 250w light is not the major driver of cost in EUV? Or am I misunderstanding this?
- szundi 2y agoYes, it is 250w output but the efficiency is near zero, really
- dylan604 2y agoBut you can bake a cake with a mere 60w light. That 250w is also much less than what it takes to run modern GPUs. so it's all relative.
- Szpadel 2y agoAFAIK the main coat of EUV is cost of machines that will be obsolete in few years, so you want to produce as many chips using them as possible during that timeframe, they design a lot of around to maintain near 100% uptime of those machines. This include buffers before and after machines (so any unplanned stalls are mitigated) and technicians trained to do maintenance in F1 pitstop fashion. (source: some tour of some chipmaker I saw online, no longer remember details)
- lnsru 2y agoThese machines will be not obsolete for very long time. They are extremely rare and expensive. And the most of semiconductors are fabricated on mature nodes anyway.
- rcxdude 2y agoNot obsolete, but the margin on fabs drops off pretty quickly once they're not at the cutting edge, as I understand it, so they need to make back their capital investment fairly quickly.
- nereye 2y agoWith exceptions, was reading recently an interesting die analysis/estimate of the costs and margins of manufacturing of the AD9361 chip (a 65nm, digital radio transceiver, introduced 12 years ago and still selling at retail today for $300/$400): https://zeptobars.com/en/read/AD9361-SDR-Analog-Devices-DAC-ADC-65nm https://zeptobars.com/en/read/AD9361-SDR-Analog-Devices-DAC-... Relevant quotes (and the current retail price if anything is higher now then when the article was written): “ Retail price of AD9361 at distributes is 275$, volume price from manufacturer is 175$. That is quite an impressive added value! For 1,68$ of manufacturing cost we are getting 173,32$ of added value! Even Intel with their x86 or drug cartels could NOT do business like that.” Of course, the actual margin needs to take into account NRE and other costs (and the above link does get into that) but, in this case, the manufacturing is a tiny sliver of the costs.
- yesthis 2y agoThat's not because they become obsolete, it's because they're the rate-limiting step (bottleneck).
- javiramos 2y agoWhen an ASML Lithography Machine Goes Down: https://youtu.be/6v9gx3Z4oVk https://youtu.be/6v9gx3Z4oVk?
- nabla9 2y ago> to maintain near 100% uptime They have uptime only about 80%. They need to be stopped, calibrated and maintained frequently. They do not go obsolete quicly. They are constantly upgraded. 10-15 year old fabs and machines are still running all over the world. There are 1000 nm, 90nm, 40 nm, 14 nm fabs still running. High-end is not all of semiconductor industry.
- brookst 2y agoYes, it is more that margins are highest when a machine is brand new so it pays to maximize duty cycle. It will last for a decade, sure, but those 90nm fabs are not nearly as profitable as a 4nm fab.
- zitterbewegung 2y ago"Obsolete" which I guess for you means for the bleeding edge? Larger nanometer processes will still be in use since their cost will come down. For example when automakers stopped their orders for chips during COVID they pivoted (ported?) to higher nanometer designs because it wasn't a core requirement.
- Panoramix 2y agoWeird article. The energy consumption of an EUV machine is about 1MW, that's why it's interesting to have an efficient alternative, not the actual useful power of the source.
- namibj 2y agoThat's why they're working on FEL light sources.
- DanielHB 2y agoThat sounds like a lot, but how many of those machines does an average fab have? Seriously I have no idea.
- f1shy 2y agoI have visited 3 fabs, only one machine in each. Anecdotal info…
- DanielHB 2y agoIn that case 1MW doesn't sound like a whole lot to be worth optimizing for.
- HarHarVeryFunny 2y agoAccording to Claude, that's about $1M/yr of electricity, assuming 24x7 usage. I assume the real saving is on the cost of the machine in the first place, and again relying on my AI buddy Claude: Let me break down the costs of both Nanoimprint Lithography (NIL) and Extreme Ultraviolet (EUV) lithography machines: NIL Machine Cost: Basic NIL systems: $1-3 million Advanced NIL systems (like those from Canon/Molecular Imprints): $10-15 million EUV Machine Cost: Current ASML EUV systems (like the NXE:3400C): Approximately $150-200 million per unit Latest generation ASML EUV systems (NXE:3600D): Over $300 million per unit Installation and support infrastructure can add $30-50 million ** So, looks like $200M+ saving going with NIL vs EUV.
- 2y ago
- on_the_train 2y agoYes that's a strange quote. 250w is not only wrong, but absolutely minuscule compared to the tech around it. I work on the optics system
- majoe 2y agoThe EUV light is produced by shooting a pulsed laser on tin droplets. You already lose most of the input power in the pulsed laser. Then only a fraction of the energy of the light hitting the tin is converted to EUV light with the correct wavelength. Finally the EUV light has to be focused on the mask through complicated optics, which is notoriously difficult for EUV light. I guess, there are other sources of inefficiencies, that I forgot.
- thfuran 2y agoIsn't it actually tin plasma?
- DoctorOetker 2y agoIs there a reason EUV labs don't collocate with synchrotron FEL lasers?
- aboardRat4 2y agoYes. Nucleophobia. Same reason it's called "euv" and not "soft x-ray".
- DoctorOetker 2y ago"because the bit flips would then already have infected your processor in the factory" ?
- cyberax 2y agoIndeed, synchrotron sources are considered to be a possible light source for lithography. China is especially interested in them, since they can be done with a homegrown technology: https://www.eenewseurope.com/en/chinas-synchrotron-euv-litho-light-source-is-no-sanctions-buster/ https://www.eenewseurope.com/en/chinas-synchrotron-euv-litho... From what I understand, tin-based sources are easier to work with because they are point-like. All the energy is produced from a tiny droplet. Synchrotron sources produce much wider beams, that need to be re-focused properly.
- SAI_Peregrinus 2y ago
- blux 2y agoAFAIK, 250W is the net energy of light arriving at the wafer after it has reflected off of many mirrors, with a very inefficient process to generate light from the tin plasma on top of that.
- dralley 2y agoProducing 250w of EUV light requires 20+ kilowatts of electricity pumped through an extremely expensive system of lasers and mirrors.