4 ms·

For a lot of software engineers - especially those of us who are actually senior engineers, not folks who've been working for 2 years since graduation - I don't

For a lot of software engineers - especially those of us who are actually senior engineers, not folks who've been working for 2 years since graduation - I don't think a promotion makes sense, anyway. From here, it's Staff or Principal (or management, which is fine for some folks, and anathema to others), and the raise does not justify the amount of effort the next level would require. A lot of us are happy where we are, level-wise, and if we do want a significant raise, others have pointed out - we're more likely to get it by interviewing, not by getting promoted. Now, granted, if you're gung-ho and really want the responsibility and the more interesting work that Staff/Principal will give you, fuckin' go nuts - I'm happy there are ambitious folks out there. I just want to do my job and then go play with my kid.

nine_zeros 2y ago
The next level is also a pyramid level - aka - competition and stack rank and often political. A lot of people cannot be bothered with petty politics.
c0n5pir4cy 2y ago
As a Principal engineer, I would refuse to RTO and would look for another position or do the same and continue WFH if it's rewarding enough. Most of the Staff/Principal engineers around you are not there because they don't have other (sometimes much better on the face of it) opportunities - we're here because of inertia and realm expertise.
paxys 2y ago
Being financially secure and not caring about a promotion is the biggest superpower you can have at a tech company. Work on whatever projects you want. Skip whichever meetings you want. Don't want to waste multiple days writing a pointless report? Fine. Don't want to participate in org politics? All good. As long as you are doing decent work and have a good reputation among your peers the threat of firing will always be an empty one. And soon you'll start to realize how much of the work people do at any company, especially at higher levels, is just performative ass kissing. Every single terrible job experience is the result of a shitty power tripping manager. Take away the manager's power over you and suddenly your job will be fun and fulfilling again.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  > Being financially secure and not caring about a promotion is the biggest superpower you can have at a tech company. And not being in the country on an H1B… This is not a rant against H1B Visa holders. It’s a condemnation of the system that makes their ability to stay in the country contingent on their job. I saw it first hand at AWS. When Amazon started Amazoning when I was working there, I knew what was up and wasn’t stressed, didn’t jump through the hoops to stay off PIP and when they gave me the choice of getting 4 months severance and “leave immediately”. I took the money and ran and got another job in 3 weeks. My coworkers who were there on H1B, were definitely afraid, even if they did have more than enough money to hypothetically tide them over. I knew I could get a job, a contract, start independent consulting or do something before my money ran out. That wasn’t an option for them. For those who don’t know how the PIP process works at Amazon… - if you choose to “leave immediately” instead of working through the PIP, you got one month of base pay for every year and partial year you worked there. - if you failed the PIP (and you will), you got 1/3 of the original amount. - of course you can appeal. But if you fail (and you will). You get 1/2 of the 1/3.
  - darth_avocado 2y ago
    When Elon cracked the whip in Twitter, everyone on H1B interviewed and eventually left. At the end, most people left at Twitter were US citizens and a few H1Bs. Yes they may not have the ability to just quit on a whim, but they certainly have the ability to quit. And that’s what people do.
    - scarface_74 2y ago
      Sure they can quit on their own volition. But they couldn’t do like I could when I saw the writing on the wall when I was about to get Amazoned Options for me: 1. F** it. I will just quit and start working on building up my own independent cloud consulting business (I worked in Professional Services) 2. Stick around until the official PIP comes and get a 3+ month severance and survive until my next vesting period. One of my former coworkers suggested this. He was a director at an F500 company and said he could at least get me a very well paying contract until he could get a position created for me once I got PIPd. He wanted me specifically. 3. The option I chose was to work for another consulting company that didn't offer sponsorships - I asked for another coworker who was looking.
spamizbad 2y ago
Speaking as someone who tracked up the management chain…. Senior Software Engineer was the best job I ever had. The perfect balance of autonomy and responsibility.
- Spooky23 2y ago
  150%. I loved, loved, loved being a technical SME and engineer. It was incredibly satisfying and fun. I got greedy and also enjoyed systems, so I moved into an architect role, then director/exec. I have a great job and enjoy the company and mission… but the politics is exhausting.
- cflewis 2y ago
  I just had my annual “career check-in” or whatever they are calling it now at work. I’m at the crossroads level: stick as being a software engineer and accept I’m not smart enough to ever be promoted again on software engeering track, or head for management track. My guess is I would be either an excellent manager or an appalling one. Either way, I have absolutely no wish to do it. My wife is saying I should go for it in order to continue climbing the ladder. I can’t pretend I’m not glad to see someone who would have been happy sticking as well. Hopefully you get the chance to demote yourself soon :)
  - archagon 2y ago
    When I think of the SWE career ladder from IC to management, this Mitch Hedberg quote comes to mind: "When you're in Hollywood and you're a comedian, everybody wants you to do other things. All right, you're a stand-up comedian, can you write us a script? That's not fair. That's like if I worked hard to become a cook, and I'm a really good cook, they'd say, 'OK, you're a cook. Can you farm?'"
  - peterbell_nyc 2y ago
    There's a reason there are IC and manager tracks at most companies employing devs. You can keep refining your craft as an IC and become a Staff/Principal/Distinguished. No need to become a manager to get promotions, more money and/or more responsibility.
harrall 2y ago
Me too. The reason my current and previous companies can handle their high throughput is 100% from my architecture but I have no actual responsibility and stress in my position. I’m sure I could make a gnarly salary somewhere but I’m extremely happy with the free time that I have. Beats any other job that I’ve had by a mile.
brightball 2y ago
Yea, I’ve worked with folks in management who are just laser focused on the idea that offering leadership or management positions as a carrot to good developers is appealing. For some it is, but most of the time I find people just want to work on interesting problems and be appreciated for it.
darth_avocado 2y ago
The more important question is: how much is the pay raise from Senior -> Staff. For even the companies that pay generously, like Facebook, the median pay increases by about $150k in the US. If you look at companies like Dell, levels.fyi reports that the increase is barely $15k (https://www.levels.fyi/companies/dell-technologies/salaries/software-engineer?country=254 https://www.levels.fyi/companies/dell-technologies/salaries/...) Now if I were to choose, getting paid 15k less and stay remote in a LCOL area vs get that pay raise to live in a presumably more expensive city to RTO, it’s a no brainer. Even if I live in a HCOL area and I don’t go to the office, it is still a win. I live in the Bay Area, relatively close to the office and just commuting to the office, if I use public transportation, is about $300/month ($3600/year). If I drive, pay for parking, bridge tolls, and pay for lunch, I suddenly start spending $2000/month to RTO ($8 toll, $16 lunch and $25 parking 5 days a week). I’d need almost $40-50k pre tax raise to break even, which most companies refuse to give. And that is on top of time I waste commuting and the added work responsibilities I now have to take on. The incentives to RTO are really not there.
- imoreno 2y ago
  The problem with the raise is that you often end up getting hired into a role at the high end of the comp range for that level, since during the application you have leverage. When getting promoted, you have less bargaining power - what are you going to do, refuse the raise because it's too small? So you get promoted out of highly paid senior into underpaid staff. If you really want to be staff, you can try interviewing elsewhere for that position, and negotiate to get the high end of that. When companies promote internally, they have a huge advantage against random employers on the market: There is vastly less uncertainty about the employee's value. The promotion you get has every reason to be competitive with open positions on the market. But they often seem to promote into underwhelming positions, perhaps they figure the employee would value staying at the same company.
  - darth_avocado 2y ago
    The problem with staff though is that it is harder to meet expectations when you change companies than if you stay at the same company. The role often requires you to be able to navigate organizational barriers effectively to do your job. And at a new company, you need to be exceptional at making connections if you want to continue to be remote. At your current company, the time you put in as a senior allows you to have those connections and therefore continue to perform as a staff engineer. This barrier is why a lot of people continue to work at the same company with underwhelming raises.

nine_zeros 2y ago

The next level is also a pyramid level - aka - competition and stack rank and often political. A lot of people cannot be bothered with petty politics.

c0n5pir4cy 2y ago

As a Principal engineer, I would refuse to RTO and would look for another position or do the same and continue WFH if it's rewarding enough. Most of the Staff/Principal engineers around you are not there because they don't have other (sometimes much better on the face of it) opportunities - we're here because of inertia and realm expertise.

paxys 2y ago

Being financially secure and not caring about a promotion is the biggest superpower you can have at a tech company. Work on whatever projects you want. Skip whichever meetings you want. Don't want to waste multiple days writing a pointless report? Fine. Don't want to participate in org politics? All good. As long as you are doing decent work and have a good reputation among your peers the threat of firing will always be an empty one. And soon you'll start to realize how much of the work people do at any company, especially at higher levels, is just performative ass kissing. Every single terrible job experience is the result of a shitty power tripping manager. Take away the manager's power over you and suddenly your job will be fun and fulfilling again.

scarface_74 2y ago
> Being financially secure and not caring about a promotion is the biggest superpower you can have at a tech company. And not being in the country on an H1B… This is not a rant against H1B Visa holders. It’s a condemnation of the system that makes their ability to stay in the country contingent on their job. I saw it first hand at AWS. When Amazon started Amazoning when I was working there, I knew what was up and wasn’t stressed, didn’t jump through the hoops to stay off PIP and when they gave me the choice of getting 4 months severance and “leave immediately”. I took the money and ran and got another job in 3 weeks. My coworkers who were there on H1B, were definitely afraid, even if they did have more than enough money to hypothetically tide them over. I knew I could get a job, a contract, start independent consulting or do something before my money ran out. That wasn’t an option for them. For those who don’t know how the PIP process works at Amazon… - if you choose to “leave immediately” instead of working through the PIP, you got one month of base pay for every year and partial year you worked there. - if you failed the PIP (and you will), you got 1/3 of the original amount. - of course you can appeal. But if you fail (and you will). You get 1/2 of the 1/3.
- darth_avocado 2y ago
  When Elon cracked the whip in Twitter, everyone on H1B interviewed and eventually left. At the end, most people left at Twitter were US citizens and a few H1Bs. Yes they may not have the ability to just quit on a whim, but they certainly have the ability to quit. And that’s what people do.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    Sure they can quit on their own volition. But they couldn’t do like I could when I saw the writing on the wall when I was about to get Amazoned Options for me: 1. F** it. I will just quit and start working on building up my own independent cloud consulting business (I worked in Professional Services) 2. Stick around until the official PIP comes and get a 3+ month severance and survive until my next vesting period. One of my former coworkers suggested this. He was a director at an F500 company and said he could at least get me a very well paying contract until he could get a position created for me once I got PIPd. He wanted me specifically. 3. The option I chose was to work for another consulting company that didn't offer sponsorships - I asked for another coworker who was looking.

spamizbad 2y ago

Speaking as someone who tracked up the management chain…. Senior Software Engineer was the best job I ever had. The perfect balance of autonomy and responsibility.

Spooky23 2y ago
150%. I loved, loved, loved being a technical SME and engineer. It was incredibly satisfying and fun. I got greedy and also enjoyed systems, so I moved into an architect role, then director/exec. I have a great job and enjoy the company and mission… but the politics is exhausting.
cflewis 2y ago
I just had my annual “career check-in” or whatever they are calling it now at work. I’m at the crossroads level: stick as being a software engineer and accept I’m not smart enough to ever be promoted again on software engeering track, or head for management track. My guess is I would be either an excellent manager or an appalling one. Either way, I have absolutely no wish to do it. My wife is saying I should go for it in order to continue climbing the ladder. I can’t pretend I’m not glad to see someone who would have been happy sticking as well. Hopefully you get the chance to demote yourself soon :)
- archagon 2y ago
  When I think of the SWE career ladder from IC to management, this Mitch Hedberg quote comes to mind: "When you're in Hollywood and you're a comedian, everybody wants you to do other things. All right, you're a stand-up comedian, can you write us a script? That's not fair. That's like if I worked hard to become a cook, and I'm a really good cook, they'd say, 'OK, you're a cook. Can you farm?'"
- peterbell_nyc 2y ago
  There's a reason there are IC and manager tracks at most companies employing devs. You can keep refining your craft as an IC and become a Staff/Principal/Distinguished. No need to become a manager to get promotions, more money and/or more responsibility.

harrall 2y ago

Me too. The reason my current and previous companies can handle their high throughput is 100% from my architecture but I have no actual responsibility and stress in my position. I’m sure I could make a gnarly salary somewhere but I’m extremely happy with the free time that I have. Beats any other job that I’ve had by a mile.

brightball 2y ago

Yea, I’ve worked with folks in management who are just laser focused on the idea that offering leadership or management positions as a carrot to good developers is appealing. For some it is, but most of the time I find people just want to work on interesting problems and be appreciated for it.

darth_avocado 2y ago

The more important question is: how much is the pay raise from Senior -> Staff. For even the companies that pay generously, like Facebook, the median pay increases by about $150k in the US. If you look at companies like Dell, levels.fyi reports that the increase is barely $15k (https://www.levels.fyi/companies/dell-technologies/salaries/software-engineer?country=254 https://www.levels.fyi/companies/dell-technologies/salaries/...) Now if I were to choose, getting paid 15k less and stay remote in a LCOL area vs get that pay raise to live in a presumably more expensive city to RTO, it’s a no brainer. Even if I live in a HCOL area and I don’t go to the office, it is still a win. I live in the Bay Area, relatively close to the office and just commuting to the office, if I use public transportation, is about $300/month ($3600/year). If I drive, pay for parking, bridge tolls, and pay for lunch, I suddenly start spending $2000/month to RTO ($8 toll, $16 lunch and $25 parking 5 days a week). I’d need almost $40-50k pre tax raise to break even, which most companies refuse to give. And that is on top of time I waste commuting and the added work responsibilities I now have to take on. The incentives to RTO are really not there.

imoreno 2y ago
The problem with the raise is that you often end up getting hired into a role at the high end of the comp range for that level, since during the application you have leverage. When getting promoted, you have less bargaining power - what are you going to do, refuse the raise because it's too small? So you get promoted out of highly paid senior into underpaid staff. If you really want to be staff, you can try interviewing elsewhere for that position, and negotiate to get the high end of that. When companies promote internally, they have a huge advantage against random employers on the market: There is vastly less uncertainty about the employee's value. The promotion you get has every reason to be competitive with open positions on the market. But they often seem to promote into underwhelming positions, perhaps they figure the employee would value staying at the same company.
- darth_avocado 2y ago
  The problem with staff though is that it is harder to meet expectations when you change companies than if you stay at the same company. The role often requires you to be able to navigate organizational barriers effectively to do your job. And at a new company, you need to be exceptional at making connections if you want to continue to be remote. At your current company, the time you put in as a senior allows you to have those connections and therefore continue to perform as a staff engineer. This barrier is why a lot of people continue to work at the same company with underwhelming raises.