4 ms·

You're describing punishment by the state. One is entitled to move on from a fine or imprisonment. One is not entitled to a clean social or occupational reputat

You're describing punishment by the state. One is entitled to move on from a fine or imprisonment. One is not entitled to a clean social or occupational reputation. There's a good reason those consequences exist.

Filligree 2y ago
It’s useful for society if there’s a way for criminals to reintegrate into society. If potential employers can always check for a criminal record, and refuse to hire criminals, then guess what those criminals will do? The answer isn’t “starve to death”. Previously there were practical limits to how long a sentence could follow you. If you moved across the country, you might lose whatever family you still have, but at least you could get a fresh start. Nowadays that’s effectively impossible.
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  There are employers who don't care about criminal records, at least up to a point. Most trade unions don't, and many other blue-collar employers don't. A criminal record isn't going to prevent you from working, but it might limit your choices.
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    It depends on the crime and the job. I wouldn't hire an embezzler to do the books, for example.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  Why is that useful? To me it sounds like society’s law followers would be taking risk to the benefit of the criminal. I think certain crimes that are petty - like traffic violations or whatever - sure reintegration makes sense. But burglaries, robberies, assault, murder, etc - I think keeping them jailed is probably best for everyone.
  - ternnoburn 2y ago
    People learn, change, and grow. People experience things and change their perspectives. The person I am at 45 is not the person I was at 25. Also, some folks believe crime has root causes in systems outside the self -- poverty, violence, compulsion -- helping people out of those systems and then seeing if they can contribute in society without those pressures against them.
Barrin92 2y ago
>One is not entitled to a clean social or occupational reputation In plenty of jurisdictions people are entitled precisely to that. Here in Germany the entire basis for punishment is a right to full reintegration after you have been punished. A just community punishes once, not five hundred times over and that goes both for the people and the state (which are the same thing in a democracy, the latter punishes on behalf of the former). If you come out of prison and you've paid back your debt only to be ostracized and arbitrarily pursued by a witch hunting public that's not a just society, it's a mob. It's worth repeating, if someone goes to prison you're putting them there, it's "we the people vs X". "The state" is exercising power on your behalf. That's the basis of a working social contract. You harm the community, you pay, but afterwards we have an actual duty to resocialize you, otherwise we just acted in arbitrary and disproportionate fashion. Criminals have rights in a civilized society, including to privacy and not be discriminated against, by say employers.
- FireBeyond 2y ago
  I believe it's Scandinavia, or maybe Denmark, where there is no punishment for escaping or attempting to escape prison. The courts, community has decided the need to be free is a fundamental human drive, and cannot be punished. Sure, when you're caught, you'll be taken back to complete your sentence, but you won't get additional punishment for the effort.
  - anticensor 2y ago
    I've heard it's the same in Germany.
- bill_joy_fanboy 2y ago
  > we have an actual duty to resocialize you You may feel that you have this duty. I do not feel that I have this duty. You are placing upon me an obligation that I will not accept.
  - hooverd 2y ago
    Personally, I like living in a liberal democracy where we reintegrate criminals.

Filligree 2y ago

It’s useful for society if there’s a way for criminals to reintegrate into society. If potential employers can always check for a criminal record, and refuse to hire criminals, then guess what those criminals will do? The answer isn’t “starve to death”. Previously there were practical limits to how long a sentence could follow you. If you moved across the country, you might lose whatever family you still have, but at least you could get a fresh start. Nowadays that’s effectively impossible.

SoftTalker 2y ago
There are employers who don't care about criminal records, at least up to a point. Most trade unions don't, and many other blue-collar employers don't. A criminal record isn't going to prevent you from working, but it might limit your choices.
- WalterBright 2y ago
  It depends on the crime and the job. I wouldn't hire an embezzler to do the books, for example.
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
Why is that useful? To me it sounds like society’s law followers would be taking risk to the benefit of the criminal. I think certain crimes that are petty - like traffic violations or whatever - sure reintegration makes sense. But burglaries, robberies, assault, murder, etc - I think keeping them jailed is probably best for everyone.
- ternnoburn 2y ago
  People learn, change, and grow. People experience things and change their perspectives. The person I am at 45 is not the person I was at 25. Also, some folks believe crime has root causes in systems outside the self -- poverty, violence, compulsion -- helping people out of those systems and then seeing if they can contribute in society without those pressures against them.

Barrin92 2y ago

>One is not entitled to a clean social or occupational reputation In plenty of jurisdictions people are entitled precisely to that. Here in Germany the entire basis for punishment is a right to full reintegration after you have been punished. A just community punishes once, not five hundred times over and that goes both for the people and the state (which are the same thing in a democracy, the latter punishes on behalf of the former). If you come out of prison and you've paid back your debt only to be ostracized and arbitrarily pursued by a witch hunting public that's not a just society, it's a mob. It's worth repeating, if someone goes to prison you're putting them there, it's "we the people vs X". "The state" is exercising power on your behalf. That's the basis of a working social contract. You harm the community, you pay, but afterwards we have an actual duty to resocialize you, otherwise we just acted in arbitrary and disproportionate fashion. Criminals have rights in a civilized society, including to privacy and not be discriminated against, by say employers.

FireBeyond 2y ago
I believe it's Scandinavia, or maybe Denmark, where there is no punishment for escaping or attempting to escape prison. The courts, community has decided the need to be free is a fundamental human drive, and cannot be punished. Sure, when you're caught, you'll be taken back to complete your sentence, but you won't get additional punishment for the effort.
- anticensor 2y ago
  I've heard it's the same in Germany.
bill_joy_fanboy 2y ago
> we have an actual duty to resocialize you You may feel that you have this duty. I do not feel that I have this duty. You are placing upon me an obligation that I will not accept.
- hooverd 2y ago
  Personally, I like living in a liberal democracy where we reintegrate criminals.