4 ms·

Nobody wants to be a middle manager. I’d be concerned if anyone ever wanted to be a middle manager. If you’re not C level and somebody reports to you, you’re a

Nobody wants to be a middle manager. I’d be concerned if anyone ever wanted to be a middle manager. If you’re not C level and somebody reports to you, you’re a middle manager though.

WantonQuantum 2y ago
Middle manager is not a precise term so opinions on what is and is not a middle manager differ but in larger companies there are definitely senior managers and executive management.
- jonahx 2y ago
  All of the replies to GP sound like desperate attempts not to self-identify as a middle manager. GP's definition matches common usage: To people not invested in this game, if you are manager at a large company and not C-suite, you're a middle manager.
  - Brian_K_White 2y ago
    Obviously silly. There are obviously a large bulk of managers who do not manage other managers, and they could reasonably only be called simply "managers". What would be the excuse for adding "middle" to them when they are not in the middle of anything?
    - jfengel 2y ago
      They are above the employees and below the C suite. You probably could just call them "managers" with little loss of meaning. But the term "middle management" can connote a kind of useless that makes them different from "front line managers". The difference seems to depend on how useless your front line managers appear to be.
  - SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
    I get what you’re saying, but it’s more than a little like someone who isn’t invested in football calling everyone on defense a “defensive back”. Middle management is a term of art referring to a specific role that works quite differently from the more common first line managers. Insisting on it as a catch-all term accomplishes nothing but making things more confusing.
    - dylan604 2y ago
      To me, it reads as the exhibit A of the point of the article coming from a GenZer that just can't be bothered to understand the org chart if even be bothered to look at it. To them, you have the workers, and then management. Anyone above them is old and out of touch and just receives eye rolls
  - sanderjd 2y ago
    No, "middle" very clearly does not include front line managers, who do a very different job.
  - WantonQuantum 2y ago
    Haha take a look at my other comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42591805 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42591805
roughly 2y ago
Typically “middle manager” means you’ve specifically got managers reporting to you - you’re a manager managing managers reporting to a manager: “middle manager”
- fsckboy 2y ago
  not precisely true. the "line managers" reporting to a middle manager frequently do not have the word "manager" in their title, leaving middle managers as the lowest level of actual managers. line managers are a bit like NCO's (sargeants, corporals, non-commissioned officers) in the military; they have experience doing to the thing that they people they oversee do. The officer they report to may not.
klodolph 2y ago
> If you’re not C level and somebody reports to you, you’re a middle manager though. You’re a middle manager if you’re not in “upper management”, but managers report to you. It’s called “middle” management because it’s between upper management (C-level and VPs, probably) and first-line management / frontline management. Start with all managers, select the ones in the middle, that’s middle management.
- hinkley 2y ago
  I don’t know if the military is copying civilian patterns or vice versa. But in the military the Line Manager is a noncommissioned officer, and if they want to stay that role forever that’s fine. As long as you can keep up with your unit. But commissioned officers are more “up or out”. If you don’t have a trajectory that gets you to stop being a lieutenant someday, then odds are very good you’ll be encouraged to leave. Not everyone has to end up a two star general, but you aren’t meant to clog up the ranks for people younger than you who have the potential to be one. The Gervais Principle suggests that you keep a few of these around in case upper management tries to mark their territory by asking for consequences (usually for their own decisions) so you have someone to throw under the bus. I don’t think that’s wrong, but conservation is often very different from thriving. It’s an artificial state that is still precarious and lacking agency for the subject.
__MatrixMan__ 2y ago
Even working near a middle manager means you're working somewhere with three or more layers of management, which suggests a concerning enthusiasm for hierarchy and smells a bit too much like Omelas for comfort.
- erikerikson 2y ago
  > Omelas Is this a reference to Ursula LeGuin's short story?
  - __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
    Yeah, where everybody is a manager except for that one poor soul in the basement.
    - erikerikson 2y ago
      Thanks, haven't read it, added to the list
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
darth_avocado 2y ago
Everyone wants to be middle management. You get paid more and Senior or Staff level is no longer your terminal career level (and therefore pay potential) as it is for most IC. Your performance evaluation becomes more subjective and less quantifiable, allowing you to hide your mediocrity and put it on others. Even if you’re same level as your ICs and the pay is same, you still hold the power in the relationship. If you’re bad manager, all the ICs can do is provide upward feedback, and that too is only at some workplaces. If you’re a bad manager, you can still fire an IC for “poor performance” any time. If company/product does poorly, ICs usually see the consequences. If the company/product does well, the management gets the pat on the back. Even though I despise middle management, that is the only path I see forward if I want to continue being employed once I’m in my 40s.
- sanderjd 2y ago
  > Everyone wants to be middle management. False. > You get paid more So what? Getting paid more was far from my primary concern when working at a big company. I wanted interesting work with people I respected and liked. The pay was more than good enough as an IC. The rest of this is machiavellian bullshit that most people don't care about.
  - darth_avocado 2y ago
    > The rest of this is Machiavellian bullshit that most people don’t care about. They don’t care about it yet. When you need more money, get laid off a couple times, or stagnate in their careers, they start caring.
datavirtue 2y ago
As a middle manager you are listening to inane complaints from arrested development cases (ICs) all day. It is very difficult to be polite. 90% of the job is holding your tongue.

Nobody wants to be a middle manager. I’d be concerned if anyone ever wanted to be a middle manager. If you’re not C level and somebody reports to you, you’re a middle manager though.

WantonQuantum 2y ago

Middle manager is not a precise term so opinions on what is and is not a middle manager differ but in larger companies there are definitely senior managers and executive management.

jonahx 2y ago
All of the replies to GP sound like desperate attempts not to self-identify as a middle manager. GP's definition matches common usage: To people not invested in this game, if you are manager at a large company and not C-suite, you're a middle manager.
- Brian_K_White 2y ago
  Obviously silly. There are obviously a large bulk of managers who do not manage other managers, and they could reasonably only be called simply "managers". What would be the excuse for adding "middle" to them when they are not in the middle of anything?
  - jfengel 2y ago
    They are above the employees and below the C suite. You probably could just call them "managers" with little loss of meaning. But the term "middle management" can connote a kind of useless that makes them different from "front line managers". The difference seems to depend on how useless your front line managers appear to be.
- SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
  I get what you’re saying, but it’s more than a little like someone who isn’t invested in football calling everyone on defense a “defensive back”. Middle management is a term of art referring to a specific role that works quite differently from the more common first line managers. Insisting on it as a catch-all term accomplishes nothing but making things more confusing.
  - dylan604 2y ago
    To me, it reads as the exhibit A of the point of the article coming from a GenZer that just can't be bothered to understand the org chart if even be bothered to look at it. To them, you have the workers, and then management. Anyone above them is old and out of touch and just receives eye rolls
- sanderjd 2y ago
  No, "middle" very clearly does not include front line managers, who do a very different job.
- WantonQuantum 2y ago
  Haha take a look at my other comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42591805 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42591805

roughly 2y ago

Typically “middle manager” means you’ve specifically got managers reporting to you - you’re a manager managing managers reporting to a manager: “middle manager”

fsckboy 2y ago
not precisely true. the "line managers" reporting to a middle manager frequently do not have the word "manager" in their title, leaving middle managers as the lowest level of actual managers. line managers are a bit like NCO's (sargeants, corporals, non-commissioned officers) in the military; they have experience doing to the thing that they people they oversee do. The officer they report to may not.

klodolph 2y ago

> If you’re not C level and somebody reports to you, you’re a middle manager though. You’re a middle manager if you’re not in “upper management”, but managers report to you. It’s called “middle” management because it’s between upper management (C-level and VPs, probably) and first-line management / frontline management. Start with all managers, select the ones in the middle, that’s middle management.

hinkley 2y ago
I don’t know if the military is copying civilian patterns or vice versa. But in the military the Line Manager is a noncommissioned officer, and if they want to stay that role forever that’s fine. As long as you can keep up with your unit. But commissioned officers are more “up or out”. If you don’t have a trajectory that gets you to stop being a lieutenant someday, then odds are very good you’ll be encouraged to leave. Not everyone has to end up a two star general, but you aren’t meant to clog up the ranks for people younger than you who have the potential to be one. The Gervais Principle suggests that you keep a few of these around in case upper management tries to mark their territory by asking for consequences (usually for their own decisions) so you have someone to throw under the bus. I don’t think that’s wrong, but conservation is often very different from thriving. It’s an artificial state that is still precarious and lacking agency for the subject.

__MatrixMan__ 2y ago

Even working near a middle manager means you're working somewhere with three or more layers of management, which suggests a concerning enthusiasm for hierarchy and smells a bit too much like Omelas for comfort.

erikerikson 2y ago
> Omelas Is this a reference to Ursula LeGuin's short story?
- __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
  Yeah, where everybody is a manager except for that one poor soul in the basement.
  - erikerikson 2y ago
    Thanks, haven't read it, added to the list
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]

darth_avocado 2y ago

Everyone wants to be middle management. You get paid more and Senior or Staff level is no longer your terminal career level (and therefore pay potential) as it is for most IC. Your performance evaluation becomes more subjective and less quantifiable, allowing you to hide your mediocrity and put it on others. Even if you’re same level as your ICs and the pay is same, you still hold the power in the relationship. If you’re bad manager, all the ICs can do is provide upward feedback, and that too is only at some workplaces. If you’re a bad manager, you can still fire an IC for “poor performance” any time. If company/product does poorly, ICs usually see the consequences. If the company/product does well, the management gets the pat on the back. Even though I despise middle management, that is the only path I see forward if I want to continue being employed once I’m in my 40s.

sanderjd 2y ago
> Everyone wants to be middle management. False. > You get paid more So what? Getting paid more was far from my primary concern when working at a big company. I wanted interesting work with people I respected and liked. The pay was more than good enough as an IC. The rest of this is machiavellian bullshit that most people don't care about.
- darth_avocado 2y ago
  > The rest of this is Machiavellian bullshit that most people don’t care about. They don’t care about it yet. When you need more money, get laid off a couple times, or stagnate in their careers, they start caring.

datavirtue 2y ago

As a middle manager you are listening to inane complaints from arrested development cases (ICs) all day. It is very difficult to be polite. 90% of the job is holding your tongue.