4 ms·

Surveillance and the suppression of civil society in Serbia

71 points by walterbell 2y ago

bestouff 2y ago
I have the feeling this will be more and more the norm rather than the exception.
lovegrenoble 2y ago
I visited Belgrade and Nis last year, it is a safe and peaceful country compared to Paris or Marseille. A quiet place to live with children and family.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- medo-bear 2y ago
  Almost everywhere in the former Yugoslavia is more safe than in the West. But it is not only safe, you will very easily make friends as people are much more open to forming friendships. Belgrade is one of my favourite cities. Never been to Nis
  - lovegrenoble 2y ago
    Confirm, people are very open and kind
  - alkonaut 2y ago
    > Almost everywhere in the former Yugoslavia is more safe than in the West. According to what metric? > But it is not only safe, you will very easily make friends as people are much more open to forming friendships. Are you generalizing "The west" here a bit?
    - medo-bear 2y ago
      [dead]
- lovestory 2y ago
  Unless you don't mind round the clock air pollution, violation of human rights, hybrid political regimen (not a democracy) and coruptation in every public instutiton, then yeah it can be pretty okay place for a family
  - SapporoChris 2y ago
    https://aqicn.org/map/belgrade/ https://aqicn.org/map/belgrade/ It's not great air quality, but round the clock air pollution is a great exaggeration.
- throwaway290 2y ago
  Grass is greener. If you lived in a city all your life you know all the seedy areas and bad stuff happened to you in that city. If you go travel to another city and see the touristy places it will feel splendid and almost for sure nothing bad will happen to you because of statistics. I lived in Belgrade and Nis for half a year. Did not feel too safe if you go far from center or too close to main bus station. I think I liked Novi Sad more than other two. Regarding peace, I gathered that many people there support Putin's war so there's that. But people are different. Serbs specifically have an axe to grind because of the bombings (of course their government also committed a genocide but whatabout this, whatabout that).
- munch117 2y ago
  I visited Syria in 2008. It was, by all appearances, a safe and peaceful country. A quiet place to live with children and family.
  - lovegrenoble 2y ago
    Before USA intervention
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
defrost 2y ago
In Australia: In recent discussions at Senate estimates, it was revealed that Services Australia, the administrator of Centrelink, has been sharing smartphone-hacking technology, specifically Cellebrite’s Universal Forensic Extraction Device, with the Department of Education and other undisclosed agencies. This move aims to assist in the investigation of suspected fraud committed against various government schemes and subsidies. While Services Australia insists the technology is only used for serious non-compliance investigations, not general customer compliance issues, concerns have been raised about privacy, data retention, and adherence to international agreements on spyware proliferation. ~ https://elm.net.au/services-australias-use-of-cellebrites-forensic-extraction-device-a-closer-look/ https://elm.net.au/services-australias-use-of-cellebrites-fo... From 2022: How does Cellebrite work? It takes just a few seconds for police to scan a mobile phone with technology such as Cellebrite. They usually download the entire contents of the phone and gain an enormous level of intelligence. Police can scan a device during a stop and search on reasonable grounds, patrolling in a vehicle, or while questioning a suspect – often without the knowledge of the person. Usually, they are seeking confirmation of drug dealing, child sexual abuse, murder or gang activity involving assault or robbery. ~ https://stacklaw.com.au/news/criminal-law/concerns-over-police-reliance-on-cellebrite-data-extraction-technology https://stacklaw.com.au/news/criminal-law/concerns-over-poli...
sandworm101 2y ago
ATPs are not theoretical. They are an everyday threat for all users. Encryotion, secure operating systems, open source software ... the tools used to keep our PCs safe need to be deployed on all of our phones too.
vouaobrasil 2y ago
Not much difference than the way all modern society works with technology today. Big tech firms often scan our stuff without our knowledge ([1] for example) and manipulate people with advanced algorithms to simply hand stuff over. The only difference is that we have the illusion that we are making a choice. But now, ask yourself: if you need to work a regular job and do regular stuff (i.e. you're not super rich), how easy is it to go through life without a smartphone? Banks often require one for two-factor authentication. Many businesses communicate through Whatsapp around the world. My condominium's condo fees are only viewable through an app. Etc. If a person HATES smartphones, and NEVER wants to use one, it would be difficult, no question. So, that person is FORCED to use one. Some people like them, but others hate them and have to use them anyway. Whether you like it or not, we are forced to carry these surveillance devices around because many components of modern infrastructure are starting to require smartphoines. The only difference between Serbia and here is that Serbian police do it, whereas in the West, all of society collaborates in a downward spiral to do it, which is also heralded and encouraged by law enforcement here too. References 1. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2025/01/apple-agrees-to-pay-95m-delete-private-conversations-siri-recorded/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2025/01/apple-agrees-to-...
- paxcoder 2y ago
  While the situation with tracking in the West is awful, there's a huge difference between having a choice, however impractical, and being spied on in secret.
  - vouaobrasil 2y ago
    My entire point was that we don't really have a choice -- for example, most people do not have a choice to own a phone any more. It's a practically mandatory sort of technology. So, we don't really have a choice here either, only the illusion of one.
    - ANewFormation 2y ago
      It's also not just your phone. People seem to have forgotten about things like PRISM [1] because it's no longer in the news, but it's still very much around and likely only more extensive. The surveillance state extends far beyond just phones. Yet these articles, from well known organisations, extensively investigating (even featuring 0 day revelations) the decline of civil society in lieu of ever more pervasive surveillance and manipulation of opinion, only seem to ever focus on geopolitical adversaries of the US. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM
medo-bear 2y ago
Although it is a general concern that governments are constantly encroaching on our private conversations I cannot help but wonder why Serbia is singled out. There are much more authoritarian examples of survailence technology and draconian laws in the West, examples being Australia UK Spain, etc
throwaway78665 2y ago
Be aware that Amnesty International has tendency to publish defamatory and incorrect opinion pieces. They are even happy to publish complete lies when it satisfies their agenda - to be a middleman for the international aid.
- DrWhax 2y ago
  [flagged]
- fn-mote 2y ago
  This is HN. I don't have a problem with the throwaway account, but provide sources if you expect us to take you seriously.
  - Xmd5a 2y ago
    https://x.com/amnestyfrance/status/1864689106032214016 https://x.com/amnestyfrance/status/1864689106032214016 >You have become a shop for far-left ideologues who choose their causes based on party doctrine. Take not of the pro-Israel agenda that grafted itself on this issue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA4e0NqyYMw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA4e0NqyYMw >You'll find us in the shadows >And all the world's a stage
A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
Yeah, yeah, "whataboutism," but did Amnesty International write anything about the hundreds of people in the UK who were arrested and charged for protesting in 2024? Serbia might keep tabs on some political activists -- like every other country -- but to the best of my knowledge nobody has been charged as a result of this snooping -- and the AI report itself corroborates this: > "33 people were arrested or detained for informational interviews during the August protest, subjected to long questioning, search of their apartments, and seizure and search of their telephones and computers. Not one of them has been formally charged at the time of this report’s publication" This report is a thin, politically-motivated hit piece. Risible, really. Sadly, I expect we're going to see a lot more of this sort of thing directed against Serbia, Hungary, and Slovakia in the near future. (And to a lesser extent perhaps also Croatia and Slovenia.) "Get with the program, or else" is the message here.
- throwaway290 2y ago
  Is there a reliable source about UK charges? But please don't say "it is censored everywhere", I hear it too often. in Russia, Serbia's good friend, let's just say there are people charged for things like this (or for something else convenient) and sit in jail for years. This is not very publicized. But yeah I talked to some of those people who now sit in jail. And also I talked to plenty Europeans who say "everything is bad and censorship, Putin will free us all" (while in a russia it is illegal to tell somebody how to use VPN). It would be funny if it was not sad.
  - A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
    This is out of date, but it has >1000 arrested and >500 charged. > https://archive.ph/56fiN https://archive.ph/56fiN IIRC, the current number is >1200 and >650. A lot of those charges are against people who were just memeing on social media, e.g.: > https://www.westmidlands.police.uk/news/west-midlands/news/news/2024/august/man-arrested-in-birmingham-over-social-media-posts-about-protests/ https://www.westmidlands.police.uk/news/west-midlands/news/n... > https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cr548zdmz3jo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cr548zdmz3jo > https://www.cheshire.police.uk/news/cheshire/news/articles/2024/8/men-jailed-after-posting-racist-messages-on-social-media https://www.cheshire.police.uk/news/cheshire/news/articles/2... Those sentences are not light! And, "will they change anything," the BBC asks? But somehow Serbia is the digital prison. It's equal parts laughable and terrifying.
TheChaplain 2y ago
Not a fan of Amnesty after they sided with Russia early in the Ukraine war, that move even made the head of Amnesty in Ukraine to resign in protest.
- erzhan89 2y ago
  agree.
- fn-mote 2y ago
  It was not a good look. To their credit, they admit their mistakes [1], if in somewhat bureaucratic stuffy language. [1]: https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/org60/6795/2023/en/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/org60/6795/2023/en/
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
otabdeveloper4 2y ago
Oh wow, Serbia is le bad again?
fn-mote 2y ago
Many writers here see this as unfairly singling out Serbia. I find it helpful to see this as a case study. Instead of seeing as only a portrait of one country ("and my country is different"), consider it as an illustration ("my country could feel like that, too"). Note that the report goes well beyond the title. 1. Norway was the source of the Cellebrite technology?! > Additionally, the Norwegian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, which donated the Cellebrite UFED technology, and the United Nations Office for Project Services (UNOPS), which managed procurement for the Norwegian government’s grant to Serbia’s Ministry of Interior, failed to conduct an adequate due diligence process to assess and mitigate for the potential risks of this technology to human rights and to provide safeguards against its abuse 2. The "chilling effect" (page 10) notes apply to anyone in a position resisting the government, in any country. 3. The details section is more specific about everything, and none of the facts are good. I think the details here go beyond "surveillance is happening everywhere", so I think it's wrong to dismiss this as some kind of fluff or hit piece. Even if other places are also bad, see the truth in this as well.
stefantalpalaru 2y ago
[dead]

71 points by walterbell 2y ago

I have the feeling this will be more and more the norm rather than the exception.

I visited Belgrade and Nis last year, it is a safe and peaceful country compared to Paris or Marseille. A quiet place to live with children and family.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
medo-bear 2y ago
Almost everywhere in the former Yugoslavia is more safe than in the West. But it is not only safe, you will very easily make friends as people are much more open to forming friendships. Belgrade is one of my favourite cities. Never been to Nis
- lovegrenoble 2y ago
  Confirm, people are very open and kind
- alkonaut 2y ago
  > Almost everywhere in the former Yugoslavia is more safe than in the West. According to what metric? > But it is not only safe, you will very easily make friends as people are much more open to forming friendships. Are you generalizing "The west" here a bit?
  - medo-bear 2y ago
    [dead]
lovestory 2y ago
Unless you don't mind round the clock air pollution, violation of human rights, hybrid political regimen (not a democracy) and coruptation in every public instutiton, then yeah it can be pretty okay place for a family
- SapporoChris 2y ago
  https://aqicn.org/map/belgrade/ https://aqicn.org/map/belgrade/ It's not great air quality, but round the clock air pollution is a great exaggeration.
throwaway290 2y ago
Grass is greener. If you lived in a city all your life you know all the seedy areas and bad stuff happened to you in that city. If you go travel to another city and see the touristy places it will feel splendid and almost for sure nothing bad will happen to you because of statistics. I lived in Belgrade and Nis for half a year. Did not feel too safe if you go far from center or too close to main bus station. I think I liked Novi Sad more than other two. Regarding peace, I gathered that many people there support Putin's war so there's that. But people are different. Serbs specifically have an axe to grind because of the bombings (of course their government also committed a genocide but whatabout this, whatabout that).
munch117 2y ago
I visited Syria in 2008. It was, by all appearances, a safe and peaceful country. A quiet place to live with children and family.
- lovegrenoble 2y ago
  Before USA intervention
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

defrost 2y ago

In Australia: In recent discussions at Senate estimates, it was revealed that Services Australia, the administrator of Centrelink, has been sharing smartphone-hacking technology, specifically Cellebrite’s Universal Forensic Extraction Device, with the Department of Education and other undisclosed agencies. This move aims to assist in the investigation of suspected fraud committed against various government schemes and subsidies. While Services Australia insists the technology is only used for serious non-compliance investigations, not general customer compliance issues, concerns have been raised about privacy, data retention, and adherence to international agreements on spyware proliferation. ~ https://elm.net.au/services-australias-use-of-cellebrites-forensic-extraction-device-a-closer-look/ https://elm.net.au/services-australias-use-of-cellebrites-fo... From 2022: How does Cellebrite work? It takes just a few seconds for police to scan a mobile phone with technology such as Cellebrite. They usually download the entire contents of the phone and gain an enormous level of intelligence. Police can scan a device during a stop and search on reasonable grounds, patrolling in a vehicle, or while questioning a suspect – often without the knowledge of the person. Usually, they are seeking confirmation of drug dealing, child sexual abuse, murder or gang activity involving assault or robbery. ~ https://stacklaw.com.au/news/criminal-law/concerns-over-police-reliance-on-cellebrite-data-extraction-technology https://stacklaw.com.au/news/criminal-law/concerns-over-poli...

sandworm101 2y ago

ATPs are not theoretical. They are an everyday threat for all users. Encryotion, secure operating systems, open source software ... the tools used to keep our PCs safe need to be deployed on all of our phones too.

vouaobrasil 2y ago

Not much difference than the way all modern society works with technology today. Big tech firms often scan our stuff without our knowledge ([1] for example) and manipulate people with advanced algorithms to simply hand stuff over. The only difference is that we have the illusion that we are making a choice. But now, ask yourself: if you need to work a regular job and do regular stuff (i.e. you're not super rich), how easy is it to go through life without a smartphone? Banks often require one for two-factor authentication. Many businesses communicate through Whatsapp around the world. My condominium's condo fees are only viewable through an app. Etc. If a person HATES smartphones, and NEVER wants to use one, it would be difficult, no question. So, that person is FORCED to use one. Some people like them, but others hate them and have to use them anyway. Whether you like it or not, we are forced to carry these surveillance devices around because many components of modern infrastructure are starting to require smartphoines. The only difference between Serbia and here is that Serbian police do it, whereas in the West, all of society collaborates in a downward spiral to do it, which is also heralded and encouraged by law enforcement here too. References 1. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2025/01/apple-agrees-to-pay-95m-delete-private-conversations-siri-recorded/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2025/01/apple-agrees-to-...

paxcoder 2y ago
While the situation with tracking in the West is awful, there's a huge difference between having a choice, however impractical, and being spied on in secret.
- vouaobrasil 2y ago
  My entire point was that we don't really have a choice -- for example, most people do not have a choice to own a phone any more. It's a practically mandatory sort of technology. So, we don't really have a choice here either, only the illusion of one.
  - ANewFormation 2y ago
    It's also not just your phone. People seem to have forgotten about things like PRISM [1] because it's no longer in the news, but it's still very much around and likely only more extensive. The surveillance state extends far beyond just phones. Yet these articles, from well known organisations, extensively investigating (even featuring 0 day revelations) the decline of civil society in lieu of ever more pervasive surveillance and manipulation of opinion, only seem to ever focus on geopolitical adversaries of the US. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM

medo-bear 2y ago

Although it is a general concern that governments are constantly encroaching on our private conversations I cannot help but wonder why Serbia is singled out. There are much more authoritarian examples of survailence technology and draconian laws in the West, examples being Australia UK Spain, etc

throwaway78665 2y ago

Be aware that Amnesty International has tendency to publish defamatory and incorrect opinion pieces. They are even happy to publish complete lies when it satisfies their agenda - to be a middleman for the international aid.

DrWhax 2y ago
[flagged]
fn-mote 2y ago
This is HN. I don't have a problem with the throwaway account, but provide sources if you expect us to take you seriously.
- Xmd5a 2y ago
  https://x.com/amnestyfrance/status/1864689106032214016 https://x.com/amnestyfrance/status/1864689106032214016 >You have become a shop for far-left ideologues who choose their causes based on party doctrine. Take not of the pro-Israel agenda that grafted itself on this issue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA4e0NqyYMw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA4e0NqyYMw >You'll find us in the shadows >And all the world's a stage

A_D_E_P_T 2y ago

Yeah, yeah, "whataboutism," but did Amnesty International write anything about the hundreds of people in the UK who were arrested and charged for protesting in 2024? Serbia might keep tabs on some political activists -- like every other country -- but to the best of my knowledge nobody has been charged as a result of this snooping -- and the AI report itself corroborates this: > "33 people were arrested or detained for informational interviews during the August protest, subjected to long questioning, search of their apartments, and seizure and search of their telephones and computers. Not one of them has been formally charged at the time of this report’s publication" This report is a thin, politically-motivated hit piece. Risible, really. Sadly, I expect we're going to see a lot more of this sort of thing directed against Serbia, Hungary, and Slovakia in the near future. (And to a lesser extent perhaps also Croatia and Slovenia.) "Get with the program, or else" is the message here.

throwaway290 2y ago
Is there a reliable source about UK charges? But please don't say "it is censored everywhere", I hear it too often. in Russia, Serbia's good friend, let's just say there are people charged for things like this (or for something else convenient) and sit in jail for years. This is not very publicized. But yeah I talked to some of those people who now sit in jail. And also I talked to plenty Europeans who say "everything is bad and censorship, Putin will free us all" (while in a russia it is illegal to tell somebody how to use VPN). It would be funny if it was not sad.
- A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
  This is out of date, but it has >1000 arrested and >500 charged. > https://archive.ph/56fiN https://archive.ph/56fiN IIRC, the current number is >1200 and >650. A lot of those charges are against people who were just memeing on social media, e.g.: > https://www.westmidlands.police.uk/news/west-midlands/news/news/2024/august/man-arrested-in-birmingham-over-social-media-posts-about-protests/ https://www.westmidlands.police.uk/news/west-midlands/news/n... > https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cr548zdmz3jo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cr548zdmz3jo > https://www.cheshire.police.uk/news/cheshire/news/articles/2024/8/men-jailed-after-posting-racist-messages-on-social-media https://www.cheshire.police.uk/news/cheshire/news/articles/2... Those sentences are not light! And, "will they change anything," the BBC asks? But somehow Serbia is the digital prison. It's equal parts laughable and terrifying.

TheChaplain 2y ago

Not a fan of Amnesty after they sided with Russia early in the Ukraine war, that move even made the head of Amnesty in Ukraine to resign in protest.

erzhan89 2y ago
agree.
fn-mote 2y ago
It was not a good look. To their credit, they admit their mistakes [1], if in somewhat bureaucratic stuffy language. [1]: https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/org60/6795/2023/en/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/org60/6795/2023/en/
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

otabdeveloper4 2y ago

Oh wow, Serbia is le bad again?

fn-mote 2y ago

Many writers here see this as unfairly singling out Serbia. I find it helpful to see this as a case study. Instead of seeing as only a portrait of one country ("and my country is different"), consider it as an illustration ("my country could feel like that, too"). Note that the report goes well beyond the title. 1. Norway was the source of the Cellebrite technology?! > Additionally, the Norwegian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, which donated the Cellebrite UFED technology, and the United Nations Office for Project Services (UNOPS), which managed procurement for the Norwegian government’s grant to Serbia’s Ministry of Interior, failed to conduct an adequate due diligence process to assess and mitigate for the potential risks of this technology to human rights and to provide safeguards against its abuse 2. The "chilling effect" (page 10) notes apply to anyone in a position resisting the government, in any country. 3. The details section is more specific about everything, and none of the facts are good. I think the details here go beyond "surveillance is happening everywhere", so I think it's wrong to dismiss this as some kind of fluff or hit piece. Even if other places are also bad, see the truth in this as well.

stefantalpalaru 2y ago

[dead]