4 ms·

But then are pirates still in violation of copyright law?

by shasta 14y ago

gosu 14y ago
Also: should the developers be in violation? I imagine it's a little like (sorry) kiddie porn, where, even if you're the kiddie, society doesn't want you supporting a community that it considers to be negative.
- rodly 14y ago
  I believe he means the developers are releasing their software for torrent in a trial or easter egg form.
- derleth 14y ago
  > should the developers be in violation? Legally? No, copyright law doesn't work that way. The people who own the copyright to a given work have an absolute right to give away the rights copyright law gives them, to conditionally give them away, to sell them, or to share them with others. Morally? Of course not. We must fight tooth and nail to prevent copyright laws from becoming that insane.
  - einhverfr 14y ago
    Depending on jurisdiction, though. In some jurisdiction authors cannot give up some rights, such as the right to attribution, in theory at least. In practice, what are they going to do? Ban publishing things anonymously on the basis you are violating your own moral rights?
    - derleth 14y ago
      > Depending on jurisdiction, though. In some jurisdiction authors cannot give up some rights, such as the right to attribution, in theory at least. Entirely correct. My post was based on American copyright law, which has no concept of moral rights.
      - pbhjpbhj 14y ago
        Well USA are signatories to Berne Convent (http://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/ShowResults.jsp?treaty_id=15 http://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/ShowResults.jsp?treaty_id=15) which includes moral rights in Article 6bis. FWIW TRIPs includes an element of moral rights in Art.s 13/14 but specifically disclaims the inclusion of every right in Berne Art.6. It would be interesting to know why the US dont want to allow people the right to be named as author of their own work? (and if they led the exclusion in TRIPs).
        derleth 14y ago
        > It would be interesting to know why the US dont want to allow people the right to be named as author of their own work? You can have that right if you negotiate for it in a contract or make it a condition of the license you release the work under. The more interesting question is why other countries want there to be rights granted by law that authors cannot give up.
        pbhjpbhj 14y ago
        Is that a French thing - IP rights that can't be given up? Moral rights to me are embodied in the right to be named as author of your works. And I can't see why you'd want to allow that to be taken away, eg in a contract of work, against the authors wishes. Where's the benefit in stimulating creative expression or for the public domain? Generally USA has rights that can't be given up; though you can chose not to exercise some of them. For example you can't sell yourself in to slavery AFAICT (or at least it wouldn't be lawful to be bought which in practical terms is equivalent).
gph 14y ago
That's an interesting question. I don't have an expert opinion, but if I was to have some speculative fun I'd say that in the U.S. if you use the software without proper licensing then it would still be breaking civil copyright law. After all no one sells software, they sell EULAs that give a user license to use their copyrighted software. I'm not sure if a developer is allowed to intentionally leak their software without proper licensing and then claim that the user must still purchase a license to use the software. And if they openly admitted in court to having uploaded their software for anyone to download, I'd assume a judge would laugh them out of court.
derleth 14y ago
> But then are pirates still in violation of copyright law? Certainly not from getting the game from the developer, assuming the developer owns the copyright as opposed to having signed away the right to control distribution. Also, copyright law doesn't control use. So using it is legal assuming you don't find a way to use a game that is in violation of some other law. If the developer doesn't want the pirates redistributing the game, though, any pirates who do are violating the law. Redistribution and the right to control it are granted by copyright law. Again, this right can be sold or given to others.
exDM69 14y ago
Does it matter? If you're an indie game developer, you can't do much about piracy. At least through legal means. Your game is going to end up in piratebay and it will get pirated. If it doesn't end up being pirated, it's probably not a very good game and won't make you money anyway.

But then are pirates still in violation of copyright law?

by shasta 14y ago

But then are pirates still in violation of copyright law?

gosu 14y ago

Also: should the developers be in violation? I imagine it's a little like (sorry) kiddie porn, where, even if you're the kiddie, society doesn't want you supporting a community that it considers to be negative.

rodly 14y ago
I believe he means the developers are releasing their software for torrent in a trial or easter egg form.
derleth 14y ago
> should the developers be in violation? Legally? No, copyright law doesn't work that way. The people who own the copyright to a given work have an absolute right to give away the rights copyright law gives them, to conditionally give them away, to sell them, or to share them with others. Morally? Of course not. We must fight tooth and nail to prevent copyright laws from becoming that insane.
- einhverfr 14y ago
  Depending on jurisdiction, though. In some jurisdiction authors cannot give up some rights, such as the right to attribution, in theory at least. In practice, what are they going to do? Ban publishing things anonymously on the basis you are violating your own moral rights?
  - derleth 14y ago
    > Depending on jurisdiction, though. In some jurisdiction authors cannot give up some rights, such as the right to attribution, in theory at least. Entirely correct. My post was based on American copyright law, which has no concept of moral rights.
    - pbhjpbhj 14y ago
      Well USA are signatories to Berne Convent (http://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/ShowResults.jsp?treaty_id=15 http://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/ShowResults.jsp?treaty_id=15) which includes moral rights in Article 6bis. FWIW TRIPs includes an element of moral rights in Art.s 13/14 but specifically disclaims the inclusion of every right in Berne Art.6. It would be interesting to know why the US dont want to allow people the right to be named as author of their own work? (and if they led the exclusion in TRIPs).
      - derleth 14y ago
        > It would be interesting to know why the US dont want to allow people the right to be named as author of their own work? You can have that right if you negotiate for it in a contract or make it a condition of the license you release the work under. The more interesting question is why other countries want there to be rights granted by law that authors cannot give up.
        pbhjpbhj 14y ago
        Is that a French thing - IP rights that can't be given up? Moral rights to me are embodied in the right to be named as author of your works. And I can't see why you'd want to allow that to be taken away, eg in a contract of work, against the authors wishes. Where's the benefit in stimulating creative expression or for the public domain? Generally USA has rights that can't be given up; though you can chose not to exercise some of them. For example you can't sell yourself in to slavery AFAICT (or at least it wouldn't be lawful to be bought which in practical terms is equivalent).

gph 14y ago

That's an interesting question. I don't have an expert opinion, but if I was to have some speculative fun I'd say that in the U.S. if you use the software without proper licensing then it would still be breaking civil copyright law. After all no one sells software, they sell EULAs that give a user license to use their copyrighted software. I'm not sure if a developer is allowed to intentionally leak their software without proper licensing and then claim that the user must still purchase a license to use the software. And if they openly admitted in court to having uploaded their software for anyone to download, I'd assume a judge would laugh them out of court.

derleth 14y ago

> But then are pirates still in violation of copyright law? Certainly not from getting the game from the developer, assuming the developer owns the copyright as opposed to having signed away the right to control distribution. Also, copyright law doesn't control use. So using it is legal assuming you don't find a way to use a game that is in violation of some other law. If the developer doesn't want the pirates redistributing the game, though, any pirates who do are violating the law. Redistribution and the right to control it are granted by copyright law. Again, this right can be sold or given to others.

exDM69 14y ago

Does it matter? If you're an indie game developer, you can't do much about piracy. At least through legal means. Your game is going to end up in piratebay and it will get pirated. If it doesn't end up being pirated, it's probably not a very good game and won't make you money anyway.