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PlasticList's Advice for Food Companies
- dang 2y agoRecent and related: Plasticlist Report – Data on plastic chemicals in Bay Area foods - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42525633 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42525633 - Dec 2024 (188 comments)
- asdasdsddd 2y agoWhy are wood cutting boards outlawed for commercial kitchens.
- rad_gruchalski 2y ago> Although very beautiful and functional, they require proper sanitation and careful maintenance. Being, in fact, the wood is a living and porous material, it is not advisable to sanitize the cutting board daily, as this could risk the proliferation of germs and bacteria. https://www.euroceppi.com/en/blog-en/why-cant-wooden-cutting-boards-be-used-in-professional-kitchens/ https://www.euroceppi.com/en/blog-en/why-cant-wooden-cutting... Makes sense to me, I never process meat at home on a wooden board. Only plastic and dishwasher after use.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y agoBut couldn’t a knife hitting a plastic board shed micro particles into your food?
- 0_____0 2y agoSometimes you just need to use the least bad option. I tend to use my wood board for dry or veg foods, and 100% always use the plastic board for meat products.
- stevage 2y agoUntil I read this article, this thought had never occurred to me. Not that I use a plastic board anyway.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- lurking_swe 2y agonot to mention all the microplastics released in the dishwasher when it runs! this sounds like a bad idea to me. I personally have a dedicated wood cutting board that is for meat only. I cook my meat to safe temperatures anyway so i’m not too worried about sanitizing it perfectly. I just do my best with hot water, soap, and a sponge.
- rad_gruchalski 2y agoNot really, at least judging by the state of my plastic boards. Contrary to wooden boards, they’re completely unsuitable for dishwashers. Who knows what were these wooden boards treated with to make them “food safe”. I hope you don’t use any polyester if you’re so concerned about my plastic board. Just imagine all that plastic from washing polyester. Or maybe you have a car with seats made out of plastic bottles fished out of the ocean?
- lurking_swe 2y agoyeah, a wooden cutting board isn’t great for a dishwasher either. I dislike polyester in general, with the exception of exercise shorts and sneakers. I buy cotton or wool if possible. Polyester just feels cheap to me, and avoiding it also means i have less microplastics exposure. :) There’s no hiding from microplastics. I do take some steps to avoid them where it’s easy, instead of purposely adding more to my body.
- rad_gruchalski 2y agoAnything waterproof is going to be either leather or polyester. There’s no getting around it today.
- aspenmayer 2y agoWaxed cotton? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waxed_cotton https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waxed_cotton
- rad_gruchalski 2y agoThere’s apparently so much plastic already in me that I don’t care. What I care is not having that chicken fluid soaked into the wooden board.
- SoftTalker 2y agoScrub it with hot soapy water and let it dry it will be fine.
- rad_gruchalski 2y agoYou mean scrub with that sponge made out of plastic? Because you definitely want those crevasses clean. And how hot should the water be? You have 70 degree Celsius water coming out from your tap? But hey, I used to do that. No matter how much you take care of them, the hot water wash and drying leads to those chopping boards splitting after so many uses. Those plastic buggers last for years.
- SoftTalker 2y agoscrub with a natural bristle brush. You can oil them occasionally if they are drying out too much and cracking. But yes they probably won't last forever. Shrug. Get another one.
- rad_gruchalski 2y agoI’ll stick my plastic boards for meat :)
- nanomonkey 2y agoI have a bamboo cutting board that I purchased in 2004, and a mesquite wood cutting board gifted to me a few years later. Both look nearly new despite using them daily. Now I don't cook meat, so maybe that is why my experience doesn't match yours.
- ericd 2y agoJust regular soap and water with a brush seem to work fine, no need to scrub hard, generally.
- ska 2y agoFood safety. It's ironic that in a home setting they can often be better than plastic (people typically don't clean plastic well enough, or replace often enough), but you can't sanitize them like you typically would in a commercial prep area, so they are disallowed/discouraged (based on jurisdiction).
- throwup238 2y agoSome jurisdictions also ban wood cutting boards in general but allow some made of closed-grain hardwood with like maple or walnut.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y agoThat’s a shame. Hard close grain would damage very sharp knives I would think.
- 0_____0 2y agoAre folks not simply throwing their plastic cutting boards in the dishwasher after finishing prep? I basically always do, especially after cutting meat...
- newsclues 2y agoNot everyone has a dishwasher.
- 0_____0 2y agoHmmm. It's only in the last four years or so that I've even had one, you'd have thought I would have remembered that ...
- datavirtue 2y agoBuy some Purell.
- lurking_swe 2y agoyay for microplastics (and maybe phthalates) all over my utensils, plates and glasses! on a serious note, I try to avoid putting ANY plastic in a dishwasher unless it’s silicone. what’s wrong with buying a cutting board that is used for meat only? do your best scrubbing it down with hot water and soap, and it’s not an issue. Especially if you cook your meat to a safe temperature anyway. Even better, avoid a plastic cutting board to begin with: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.3c00924 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.3c00924
- secstate 2y agoAn excellent point. Most modern germ theory says all bacteria is bad. This, despite the fact that our guts are full of bacteria and that you simply cannot avoid ingesting bacteria. Nevermind that plenty of wood cutting boards are full of beneficial bacteria that keeps listeria and e. coli at bay. Edit: Also there are literally some forms of cheese that you cannot make in sanitized stainless steel. The combination of bacteria you need needs to be impregnated in the wood.
- lukas099 2y ago> Most modern germ theory says all bacteria is bad. I've never heard anyone say this.
- everdrive 2y agoSeems like it would be simply enough for a household to just have at least two cutting boards: One for anything which is not likely to harbor dangerous bacteria. (eg: vegetables, bread, etc.) One of meat, which gets cut and then gets cooked, and so theoretically a bit of bacteria is no issue in any case. I can see how this would be much tougher for a commercial kitchen, though.
- maxwell 2y agoCommercial kitchens use color coded cutting boards AFAIK. https://www.webstaurantstore.com/3053/cutting-boards.html?filter=features:color-coded https://www.webstaurantstore.com/3053/cutting-boards.html?fi...
- Aurornis 2y agoNo, you need to clean and disinfect to kill bacteria regardless. Cooking meat does not kill the toxic byproducts of bacteria. Many bacteria produces enterotoxins, which survive cooking and cause what we know as "food poisoning". You would not want your cutting board harboring and growing these bacteria under any circumstances, even if you're cooking the product you're cutting.
- shermantanktop 2y agoYou could stop eating meat instead. But unfortunately vegetables can get cross-contaminated with animal products during growing/harvesting/processing. So even vegetarians like me have this risk, albeit at lower levels, along with contamination from non-animal sources.
- PlunderBunny 2y agoIt’s interesting that, if you go to a wet market in many Asian countries (e.g. Hong Kong) you will see the butchers cutting meat on wooden chopping blocks where the cutting surface is _grain up_ - typically a circular section of a log. I thought “surely this is the worst possible orientation for the wood?” I think they clean the blocks by using hot and cold water to expand and contract the wood, and scraping it with the blade of their knives.
- NumberWangMan 2y agoI believe that if you're doing some heavy chopping, that orientation keeps the cutting board in good condition for the longest time, as you're not cutting through the wood grain and taking chunks out of the board. Separately I've heard that while bacteria can live in wood cutting boards, they tend to stay where they are rather than migrate out of the board and into the food -- but I can't back that up with any actual references.
- datavirtue 2y agoBacteria needs moisture. It ain't clean until it's dry.
- SoftTalker 2y agoWood tends to draw moisture in, I'd think especially if "grain up," leading to a dry surface which is not very hospitable to bacterial growth.
- _yb2s 2y agoPlastic cutting boards are mostly just plain undyed polyethylene (HDPE)- which is just a fully saturated perfectly straight hydrocarbon, similar to saturated fat or wax and lacks the kind of reactive functional groups that make other plastic polymers toxic. I think it is quite unlikely that HDPE in particular is toxic or endocrine disrupting to humans in the way a lot of other plastics seem to be. It's also basically just a very viscous fluid and I suspect would flow into grooves when a knife blade hits it, without releasing particles like harder more solid plastics would. Personally, I try to avoid having most plastics contact my food and water, but make an exception for HDPE. In general, each plastic polymer is very different from another chemically, and it makes sense to consider their safety independently, and not group all plastics together.
- _DeadFred_ 2y agoThe problem is cutting boards break off little bits of plastic with use and your body has evolved zero mechanism for disposing of microplastics once they are in your system. https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news/2023/10/making-meals-without-microplastics-tips-safer-cutting-boards https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news/2023/10/making-meals-... https://phys.org/news/2024-12-microplastics-multiple-human-tissues-lesions.html https://phys.org/news/2024-12-microplastics-multiple-human-t...
- _yb2s 2y agoI've looked a bit, and not been able to find evidence of HDPE getting into cells, or exhibiting biological toxicity, whereas there seems to be quite a bit of evidence of this for almost every other type of plastic. Still, I wouldn't blame someone for just avoiding all plastic food contact by the precautionary principle. The first study you linked is interesting- it does seem to confirm what I suspected, that HDPE does flow on knife impact causing it to release less plastic debris than other plastics, but still not zero. The second one seems to be a fairly low quality review article looking at what does sound like a concerning issue, but doesn't really consider different types of plastic independently. It might be useful in the sense of citing a lot of papers in this area that could be looked at directly.
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- altairprime 2y agoIIRC it’s because plastic cutting boards can be put into a sanitizing dishwasher with reliable minimum-effort sanitary outcomes, whereas wood cutting boards require more rigorous care to remain sanitary and so the US generally bans their use rather than allowing rigor as an option. In the US, rigor is historically something one can trust food producers to sacrifice first in favor of turnaround time, profits, etc. so it does make sense that they’ve just given up and disallowed it. For possible exceptions, look into bamboo cookware and/or sushi preparation?
- xyzzy123 2y agoThis makes sense as long as they're replaced on a regular schedule, which again is low effort and easy to verify.
- ziofill 2y agoAn argument that I’ve heard is that wooden boards can get more infected with bacterial colonies if not washed and maintained properly. I’m not sure how actually true this is though.
- Wertulen 2y agoWell, for one, they're not. "Apparently" in their post implies that they are, but instead signals that they haven't done any actual research. For instance, hard wood cutting boards are permissible for use in Wisconsin: https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/code/admin_code/atcp/055/75_.pdf https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/code/admin_code/atcp/055/75... The USDA also recommends wooden cutting boards be used so long as they are properly washed and sanitized before and after use: https://www.fsis.usda.gov/food-safety/safe-food-handling-and-preparation/food-safety-basics/cutting-boards https://www.fsis.usda.gov/food-safety/safe-food-handling-and... The main issues with using wood are 1) that generally you don't want to put them in a dishwasher, 2) it's trickier to track cross-contamination as you might with color-coded boards, and 3) they're much more expensive than plastic.
- digitallis42 2y agoWood is porous and unable to be fully sanitized, as well as absorbing and giving back off everything from soaps and sanitizers to food flavors. Example: chop a few onions on a wood cutting board. Clean and dry. Then the next day wet your cutting board and give it a sniff. The onion is still there. It also has trouble with repeated washing cycles as a material. There's some evidence that biologically, wood fibers will dessicate and shred bacterias, and there's the historical anecdotal evidence of wood cutting boards having been used throughout history, but those anecdotes aren't enough for commercial kitchen operation where food needs to be able to be given to all comers, including infirm, allergic or immunocompromised.
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- Jimmc414 2y agoSomething this study has me concerned about is that regular piping hot cup of coffee served in a plastic cup. I didn’t see it in the plastic list, bit I’m near certain it’s not good for EDC and plastic ingestion
- tonymet 2y agoif I'm paying for coffee at a coffee shop and they don't have a ceramic mug, i cancel my order. I'd rather drink wine out of a solo cup
- nikolay 2y agoI'm doing the same - both for health and taste reasons. Can't imagine drinking coffee in those waxed-paper cups that leaches massively into the coffee - you can even see the wax floating on top! I'm not sure how these ever got approved for hot liquids!
- tonymet 2y agothey can't possibly be. One thing I appreciate about PlasticList and similar projects is that they are exposing how flimsy and preposterous most of our food safety protocols actually are.
- idbehold 2y agoYou may be disturbed to find out how much plastic is in contact with boiling hot water in your typical automatic drip coffee brewer. I was recently trying to find one without plastic to replace the $25 all black plastic one I've had for years. The only one I could find without any plastic was one of those all metal Bunn ones you see at diners. It was more than $400! And even that still required you to purchase a separate all metal basket as the one that comes with it was plastic. And that coffee maker doesn't really make "good tasting" coffee. Any premium "good tasting" drip coffee maker will have plastic, and probably black plastic at that.
- tonymet 2y ago
- eabnelson 2y agoi've recently have been frustrated by the tooling out there to identify plastics in consumer products and just released https://getplasticfree.com/ https://getplasticfree.com/ think it would be a helpful tool for people interested in this topic!
- kbaker 2y agohmm, I think some of your ratings might be very misleading. One of the ideas behind plasticlist was looking at things like plastic packaging leaching into the product itself, which wouldn't be in the ingredients list. For example, you list Fairlife Core Power Chocolate Protein Shake as 100/100 but it is on the plasticlist report as containing levels of DEHP and DEHT, likely coming from the packaging. Not sure what an accurate rating would be, but not 100 for sure. Maybe it works for non-food items better, but for food it might be counterproductive.
- eabnelson 2y agoyep that is a great point! I am taking a generalized approach for now and have started to filter out food as a category.
- tonymet 2y agoWe're at an interesting inflection point with plastic recycling, where people have generally accepted it's a scam, and the environmental contamination with microplastics becomes too big of a cost to overcome. This group is calling for foods companies to test all of their inputs. Eventually it is going to point to recycling's plastic processing & grinding stage.
- aaron695 2y ago[dead]