4 ms·

I have trouble understanding your use of the term DRM. Media DRM makes sense: the copyright holders want to "manage" their rights digitally. How is that relevan

by kccqzy 2y ago

I have trouble understanding your use of the term DRM. Media DRM makes sense: the copyright holders want to "manage" their rights digitally. How is that relevant to Play Integrity or WEI? Whose right is being protected or managed? If I have an Android without Play Integrity there are certain apps that will not run, but I don't see any rights being managed here: an app developer has the right to refuse service just like I have the right to refuse running an app. In fact I see no relationship between DRM and Play Integrity other than a tenuous connection that both are about controlling what a user cannot do on their device. If this is what you mean, then you have made the same mistake as FSF by conflating unrelated technologies.

ethbr1 2y ago
Ultimately, DRM is untenable without users also being locked out of their own devices. Consequently pressure to support more effective DRM will always translate into pressure to restrict what users can do with their devices. Furthermore, the only defense against this is large open device market share: once closed devices comprise most of the market, DRM proponents can announce they'll stop supporting open devices, creating a downward spiral that further decreases the availability of open devices. And then we live in a future that's fucked.
- mike_hearn 2y ago
  This is an FSF level understanding. Android devices are fully open and you can reflash them to whatever OS you want. Some remote servers won't give you service if you do that, but nothing is locking you out of your device. As Android dominates the global market, you already live in that world where most devices are open.
  - lxgr 2y ago
    While I don't agree with the FSF on even close to everything regarding trusted computing, I think for a fair discussion you'd have to at least steelman their arguments here: I think it's fair to assume that in a world in which almost every device supports attestation and makes it available to any service provider by default, without giving users an informed choice to say no or even informing them at all, service providers are much more likely to provide access exclusively to attestation-capable clients. That, in turn, has obvious negative consequences for users with devices not supporting attestation (whether out of ideological choice, because it's a low cost device and the manufacturer can't afford the required audits and security guarantees etc.): Sure, these users will always be able to just refuse to transact with any service provider requiring attestation. But think that through: We're not only talking about Netflix here. At what availability rates of attestation will decision makers at financial institutions decide that x% is good enough and exclude everybody else from online banking? What about e-signing contracts for doing business online? What about e-government services? I am at the same time excited about the new possibilities attestation offers to users (in that they will be able to do things digitally that just weren't economically feasible for service providers, since they often have to cover the risks of doing so) as I am very wary of the negative externalities of a world in which attestation is just a bit too easy and ubiquitous. In other words, the ideal amount of general purpose attestation availability is probably high, but significantly below 100% (or, put differently, the ideal amount of friction is non-zero). Heterogeneity of attestation providers can probably help a bit, but I'm wary of the inherent centralizing forces due to the technical and economical pragmatics of trusted computing.
    - fc417fc802 2y ago
      The ideal amount of attestation on a general purpose computer which is owned by me is zero. Any nonzero amount implies that control of the device has not actually been turned over to me. It implies not only the slippery slope to which you refer but also things about back doors and opportunity for dystopian political regimes and much more. When it comes to financial or legal matters (and this includes online banking) a small dedicated hardware element for signing fingerprints is all that's ever been required. Anything more is an overreach.
      - lxgr 2y ago
        > back doors and opportunity for dystopian political regimes No, this is a misunderstanding of what a TPM is. A TPM is a secure element inside your computer, similar to the chip running your credit and debit card. That's it. Without you using it (i.e. your OS or an application you installed asking it to do something), it's exactly as dangerous as a blank chip card in your house that you don't use and didn't open any account for. If you don't want anybody to talk to it, don't install applications or OSes on your computer that do things you don't want. You have full control over that! Not running software that's not acting in your own best interests is generally good practice anyway, TPM or no TPM. > [...] a small dedicated hardware element for signing fingerprints is all that's ever been required [...] You might be happy to hear that that's exactly what a TPM is, then!
        fc417fc802 2y ago
        I am fully aware of what a TPM is. I was speaking about trusted computing - ie the "general purpose attestation capability" that you referred to above. As you say, a TPM alone can't do much of anything and doesn't pose much of a threat. Of course expanding the acronym - Trusted Platform Module - is a bit of a giveaway. They were always fully intended to serve as the root of trust for much more nefarious things.
        lxgr 2y ago
        People keep saying that, yet the only thing I’ve ever seen TPMs used for is full disk encryption and user authentication. Conversely, DRM is alive and well on almost universally TPM-less devices. By the way, all of your comments in this thread end up dead – I had to vouch for them to be able to answer. Not sure what’s up with that.
  - no_time 2y ago
    >Some remote servers won't give you service if you do that This is exactly my problem. Before ideas like this surfaced, the demarcation line between who controls what was purely based on ownership. The machine that I own acts only on my behalf and in my best interests, the server that you own does so for you (or atleast for PCs this has always been the case) TPMs, attested bootchains and whatnot trample on this whole concept. It's like your very own hardware now comes with a built in Stasi agent that reports on your conduct whether you like it or not. It bothers me on a visceral level and I'm constantly wondering if it's just me.
    - mike_hearn 2y ago
      It's not just you but what people who hate remote attestation tend to forget is that it's a sword that cuts in both directions. Servers can remotely attest to you, not just the other way around. Signal is an example of an app that demands a remote attestation from the server before uploading your sensitive data. Attestation is just a tool. It can be used for all kinds of things and doesn't privilege one side or another. The average app developer doesn't truly care what device you use, they just want to cut out abuse and fraud, which are real problems that do require effective solutions. Ultimately, trade requires some certainty that both sides will act as they promise to act. Attestation is more important for individuals attesting to companies because individuals have so many more ways to hold companies to account if they break their agreements than technology, like the legal system, which is largely ineffective at enforcing rules against individuals due to cost.
      - no_time 2y ago
        Fair points. I was aware of this anti fraud angle of WEI/attestations before. From this point on this is more of an emotional argument rather than a technical one, but I feel like the negative effects way outweigh the positive ones. Giving MORE power (be it technical or poltical) to big tech companies is just tipping the scales in their favor so much we will even worse off than we already are. But if you work in anti-fraud and are fixated on solving this problem as effectively as possible, I can imagine not caring about this too if I were you...
      - 2y ago
  - matheusmoreira 2y ago
    > Android devices are fully open and you can reflash them to whatever OS you want. It doesn't matter. Those devices fail hardware remote attestation. > Some remote servers won't give you service if you do that, but nothing is locking you out of your device. The device's purpose is to be used. If it can't be used without giving up things like banks and private communications, it won't be used. Device is not locked, it just turns into a paperweight if you actually unlock it. > As Android dominates the global market, you already live in that world where most devices are open. Wanna know what else dominates the global market? WhatsApp. In many regions of the world, without their services, you are ostracized.
    - ethbr1 2y ago
      As an example of the excess here: Marriott (the hotel brand) shipped a release of their Android app that refused to run on unlocked devices. It probably didn't impact the majority of (locked) Android devices, so why would Marriott care? And with one app update, a valid user configuration became less capable.
      - matheusmoreira 2y ago
        When this remote attestation business started, people tried to minimize its impact by saying only apps that really needed it would use it. Such an absurd argument. Everyone is going to use this technology. It will literally become the default. Everyone loves cryptography and wants it working in their favor. Everyone. It's great for us when it protects our messages and browsing from surveillance capitalism and warrantless government espionage. It's extremely bad for us when it becomes the policy enforcement tool of corporations and governments. Remote attestation means we either we run the software which does their bidding and protects their interests and bottom line or we don't participate in society or the economy. Only way it could get worse is if the government starts signing software as well. One day even the goddamn ISPs will refuse to link to our hardware if it fails attestation. It's literally the end of free computing as we know it. Everything the word "hacker" ever stood for, it's over.
    - vrighter 2y ago
      Meh. I didn't reflash my phone. I didn't root it. I didn't do anything to modify its system files whatsoever. I just installed KDE Connect, and an open source keyboard. Banking apps refuse to run because of those (because my keyboard might see my keystrokes!!!). They don't even need a failed hardware attestation to refuse you service. So even if you don't try to modify your device, your device might still end up like half a paperweight. I either can't do banking, or I can't use the functionality I want.
badsectoracula 2y ago
> an app developer has the right to refuse service just like I have the right to refuse running an app. In this case it feels like an app developer having the right to punch[0] you in the face just like you have the right to refuse being punched in the face :-P. [0] (to use a family friendly verb)
matheusmoreira 2y ago
It's not about "rights". It's about power. It's about turning you into a serf in their digital fiefdom. A perpetual consumer.
saurik 2y ago
The ability for someone with a news article or a game to only have you experience it if you pay their fee or watch their ads, preventing you from copying the content off your device or modifying it in some way that is unauthorized (removing ads or otherwise modifying the behavior to circumvent protection mechanisms) is pretty obviously the exact same idea -- not some mere metaphor -- and is a protection of the exact same "right" conferred by the exact same laws as allowing someone with a movie to only have you see it if you pay their fee or watch their ads... I am honestly having a difficult time understanding your confusion here :/.
- kccqzy 2y ago
  You are still talking about DRM in the context of copyright. If someone has a news article or a game, they have copyright on that article or game and they use DRM to protect their copyright. All these are applications of DRM. Applications like Play Integrity could be quite different: say a bank can refuse to move money if your instructions to move money comes from a device deemed not trustworthy by Play Integrity. That's like a bank can refuse to let you into their branch if you are dressed in swimwear. A game can also deploy this tech for anti-cheating purposes; really no different from a real-world casino refusing a customer who is known to be good at card counting.
  - genman 2y ago
    And this is the root cause you fail to understand - the idea of copyright contradicts the idea of information freedom. You should be able to make a copy for you own purposes such that when you go back, the information is still the same and not manipulated and you should be able to actually share this information given it's important. For example a news story about corruption that has been taken down. Also why the hell you believe that the same copyright rules that apply to a movie that can take millions to make and keeps relevance for years should apply to a news article for example? It's madness.
    - kccqzy 2y ago
      Information freedom is merely an ideal not a right. It is an ideal by techno-optimists. But there is no legal basis for information to be free. Indeed I agree with you that the idea of copyright contradicts the idea of information freedom. And guess what, copyright is in our constitution, and information freedom is not. Furthermore, there is also no legal basis in differentiating copyright by the budget involved to produce the work.
account42 2y ago
> an app developer has the right to refuse service They shouldn't have that right any more than a tools manufacturer has the right to prevent you from buying one of their hammers. The right of first sale is extremely important to a functioning capitalistic society and it's completely absent from the digital world - by design.

by kccqzy 2y ago

ethbr1 2y ago

Ultimately, DRM is untenable without users also being locked out of their own devices. Consequently pressure to support more effective DRM will always translate into pressure to restrict what users can do with their devices. Furthermore, the only defense against this is large open device market share: once closed devices comprise most of the market, DRM proponents can announce they'll stop supporting open devices, creating a downward spiral that further decreases the availability of open devices. And then we live in a future that's fucked.

mike_hearn 2y ago
This is an FSF level understanding. Android devices are fully open and you can reflash them to whatever OS you want. Some remote servers won't give you service if you do that, but nothing is locking you out of your device. As Android dominates the global market, you already live in that world where most devices are open.
- lxgr 2y ago
  While I don't agree with the FSF on even close to everything regarding trusted computing, I think for a fair discussion you'd have to at least steelman their arguments here: I think it's fair to assume that in a world in which almost every device supports attestation and makes it available to any service provider by default, without giving users an informed choice to say no or even informing them at all, service providers are much more likely to provide access exclusively to attestation-capable clients. That, in turn, has obvious negative consequences for users with devices not supporting attestation (whether out of ideological choice, because it's a low cost device and the manufacturer can't afford the required audits and security guarantees etc.): Sure, these users will always be able to just refuse to transact with any service provider requiring attestation. But think that through: We're not only talking about Netflix here. At what availability rates of attestation will decision makers at financial institutions decide that x% is good enough and exclude everybody else from online banking? What about e-signing contracts for doing business online? What about e-government services? I am at the same time excited about the new possibilities attestation offers to users (in that they will be able to do things digitally that just weren't economically feasible for service providers, since they often have to cover the risks of doing so) as I am very wary of the negative externalities of a world in which attestation is just a bit too easy and ubiquitous. In other words, the ideal amount of general purpose attestation availability is probably high, but significantly below 100% (or, put differently, the ideal amount of friction is non-zero). Heterogeneity of attestation providers can probably help a bit, but I'm wary of the inherent centralizing forces due to the technical and economical pragmatics of trusted computing.
  - fc417fc802 2y ago
    The ideal amount of attestation on a general purpose computer which is owned by me is zero. Any nonzero amount implies that control of the device has not actually been turned over to me. It implies not only the slippery slope to which you refer but also things about back doors and opportunity for dystopian political regimes and much more. When it comes to financial or legal matters (and this includes online banking) a small dedicated hardware element for signing fingerprints is all that's ever been required. Anything more is an overreach.
    - lxgr 2y ago
      > back doors and opportunity for dystopian political regimes No, this is a misunderstanding of what a TPM is. A TPM is a secure element inside your computer, similar to the chip running your credit and debit card. That's it. Without you using it (i.e. your OS or an application you installed asking it to do something), it's exactly as dangerous as a blank chip card in your house that you don't use and didn't open any account for. If you don't want anybody to talk to it, don't install applications or OSes on your computer that do things you don't want. You have full control over that! Not running software that's not acting in your own best interests is generally good practice anyway, TPM or no TPM. > [...] a small dedicated hardware element for signing fingerprints is all that's ever been required [...] You might be happy to hear that that's exactly what a TPM is, then!
      - fc417fc802 2y ago
        I am fully aware of what a TPM is. I was speaking about trusted computing - ie the "general purpose attestation capability" that you referred to above. As you say, a TPM alone can't do much of anything and doesn't pose much of a threat. Of course expanding the acronym - Trusted Platform Module - is a bit of a giveaway. They were always fully intended to serve as the root of trust for much more nefarious things.
        lxgr 2y ago
        People keep saying that, yet the only thing I’ve ever seen TPMs used for is full disk encryption and user authentication. Conversely, DRM is alive and well on almost universally TPM-less devices. By the way, all of your comments in this thread end up dead – I had to vouch for them to be able to answer. Not sure what’s up with that.
- no_time 2y ago
  >Some remote servers won't give you service if you do that This is exactly my problem. Before ideas like this surfaced, the demarcation line between who controls what was purely based on ownership. The machine that I own acts only on my behalf and in my best interests, the server that you own does so for you (or atleast for PCs this has always been the case) TPMs, attested bootchains and whatnot trample on this whole concept. It's like your very own hardware now comes with a built in Stasi agent that reports on your conduct whether you like it or not. It bothers me on a visceral level and I'm constantly wondering if it's just me.
  - mike_hearn 2y ago
    It's not just you but what people who hate remote attestation tend to forget is that it's a sword that cuts in both directions. Servers can remotely attest to you, not just the other way around. Signal is an example of an app that demands a remote attestation from the server before uploading your sensitive data. Attestation is just a tool. It can be used for all kinds of things and doesn't privilege one side or another. The average app developer doesn't truly care what device you use, they just want to cut out abuse and fraud, which are real problems that do require effective solutions. Ultimately, trade requires some certainty that both sides will act as they promise to act. Attestation is more important for individuals attesting to companies because individuals have so many more ways to hold companies to account if they break their agreements than technology, like the legal system, which is largely ineffective at enforcing rules against individuals due to cost.
    - no_time 2y ago
      Fair points. I was aware of this anti fraud angle of WEI/attestations before. From this point on this is more of an emotional argument rather than a technical one, but I feel like the negative effects way outweigh the positive ones. Giving MORE power (be it technical or poltical) to big tech companies is just tipping the scales in their favor so much we will even worse off than we already are. But if you work in anti-fraud and are fixated on solving this problem as effectively as possible, I can imagine not caring about this too if I were you...
    - 2y ago
- matheusmoreira 2y ago
  > Android devices are fully open and you can reflash them to whatever OS you want. It doesn't matter. Those devices fail hardware remote attestation. > Some remote servers won't give you service if you do that, but nothing is locking you out of your device. The device's purpose is to be used. If it can't be used without giving up things like banks and private communications, it won't be used. Device is not locked, it just turns into a paperweight if you actually unlock it. > As Android dominates the global market, you already live in that world where most devices are open. Wanna know what else dominates the global market? WhatsApp. In many regions of the world, without their services, you are ostracized.
  - ethbr1 2y ago
    As an example of the excess here: Marriott (the hotel brand) shipped a release of their Android app that refused to run on unlocked devices. It probably didn't impact the majority of (locked) Android devices, so why would Marriott care? And with one app update, a valid user configuration became less capable.
    - matheusmoreira 2y ago
      When this remote attestation business started, people tried to minimize its impact by saying only apps that really needed it would use it. Such an absurd argument. Everyone is going to use this technology. It will literally become the default. Everyone loves cryptography and wants it working in their favor. Everyone. It's great for us when it protects our messages and browsing from surveillance capitalism and warrantless government espionage. It's extremely bad for us when it becomes the policy enforcement tool of corporations and governments. Remote attestation means we either we run the software which does their bidding and protects their interests and bottom line or we don't participate in society or the economy. Only way it could get worse is if the government starts signing software as well. One day even the goddamn ISPs will refuse to link to our hardware if it fails attestation. It's literally the end of free computing as we know it. Everything the word "hacker" ever stood for, it's over.
  - vrighter 2y ago
    Meh. I didn't reflash my phone. I didn't root it. I didn't do anything to modify its system files whatsoever. I just installed KDE Connect, and an open source keyboard. Banking apps refuse to run because of those (because my keyboard might see my keystrokes!!!). They don't even need a failed hardware attestation to refuse you service. So even if you don't try to modify your device, your device might still end up like half a paperweight. I either can't do banking, or I can't use the functionality I want.

badsectoracula 2y ago

> an app developer has the right to refuse service just like I have the right to refuse running an app. In this case it feels like an app developer having the right to punch[0] you in the face just like you have the right to refuse being punched in the face :-P. [0] (to use a family friendly verb)

matheusmoreira 2y ago

It's not about "rights". It's about power. It's about turning you into a serf in their digital fiefdom. A perpetual consumer.

saurik 2y ago

The ability for someone with a news article or a game to only have you experience it if you pay their fee or watch their ads, preventing you from copying the content off your device or modifying it in some way that is unauthorized (removing ads or otherwise modifying the behavior to circumvent protection mechanisms) is pretty obviously the exact same idea -- not some mere metaphor -- and is a protection of the exact same "right" conferred by the exact same laws as allowing someone with a movie to only have you see it if you pay their fee or watch their ads... I am honestly having a difficult time understanding your confusion here :/.

kccqzy 2y ago
You are still talking about DRM in the context of copyright. If someone has a news article or a game, they have copyright on that article or game and they use DRM to protect their copyright. All these are applications of DRM. Applications like Play Integrity could be quite different: say a bank can refuse to move money if your instructions to move money comes from a device deemed not trustworthy by Play Integrity. That's like a bank can refuse to let you into their branch if you are dressed in swimwear. A game can also deploy this tech for anti-cheating purposes; really no different from a real-world casino refusing a customer who is known to be good at card counting.
- genman 2y ago
  And this is the root cause you fail to understand - the idea of copyright contradicts the idea of information freedom. You should be able to make a copy for you own purposes such that when you go back, the information is still the same and not manipulated and you should be able to actually share this information given it's important. For example a news story about corruption that has been taken down. Also why the hell you believe that the same copyright rules that apply to a movie that can take millions to make and keeps relevance for years should apply to a news article for example? It's madness.
  - kccqzy 2y ago
    Information freedom is merely an ideal not a right. It is an ideal by techno-optimists. But there is no legal basis for information to be free. Indeed I agree with you that the idea of copyright contradicts the idea of information freedom. And guess what, copyright is in our constitution, and information freedom is not. Furthermore, there is also no legal basis in differentiating copyright by the budget involved to produce the work.

account42 2y ago

> an app developer has the right to refuse service They shouldn't have that right any more than a tools manufacturer has the right to prevent you from buying one of their hammers. The right of first sale is extremely important to a functioning capitalistic society and it's completely absent from the digital world - by design.