8 ms·

The Truth About H-1B Visas It's wage theft, pure and simple

64 points by megamike 2y ago

palmfacehn 2y ago
It is too politically loaded for people to examine. In the simple terms, as per the title, it is protectionism. Without making an argument for either position, it seems a bit hypocritical when tariff critics, "You know this means the consumer will pay more, right?", reverse their position and demand protectionism for labor. Of course there is much more nuance. Many H1Bs are not the mega-geniuses proponents allege. I lose interest when the argument turns towards IQ distributions and ID politics. "Wage theft" is a bit spicy as well. Are employees entitled to their job at a given wage as some kind of Nativist birth right? Comedian Sam Hyde had some interesting takes. I'm not convinced of his position, but he did well to illustrate how the dialogue around this issue isn't getting us there.
- bobosha 2y ago
  well said, this debate is too emotional to have a balanced conversation. Overall h1b issue is a dichotomy - like with many such hot-button issues - with both sides right about the other side, but wrong about themselves.
  - cactacea 2y ago
    So we just shouldn't then? Please help me understand your point
- rayiner 2y ago
  No, we can openly debate the issue now. https://youtu.be/oumNS_ORzd0?si=g2yJaz4u4iznt4KH https://youtu.be/oumNS_ORzd0?si=g2yJaz4u4iznt4KH. We need to have an honest conversation about not only the economic aspect, but the cultural aspect as well. We know that key cultural traits like social trust persist for generations in immigrants: https://www.sup.org/books/economics-and-finance/culture-transplant https://www.sup.org/books/economics-and-finance/culture-tran.... What is the effect of importing H1B workers, who are mostly elites back home, into the U.S. where many of them or their children attain positions of power over Americans? My extended family has been extremely successful as immigrants from Bangladesh to Canada, the U.S., and Australia. But temperamentally, even the second generation folks are still basically Desi. They lack the egalitarianism and conscientiousness of Anglo Americans, and retain much of the “everyone for themselves” from back home. Ross Douthat wrote a fascinating article about the ramifications of this change: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/05/opinion/george-bush-wasps.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/05/opinion/george-bush-wasps...
  - orwin 2y ago
    > They lack the egalitarianism and conscientiousness of Anglo Americans I'm sorry, but egalitarianism is not a trait I would attribute to Anglo Americans. America is a very selfish nation, built on selfish ideals. You'll have communities that aren't, but they aren't Anglo Americans: it's mostly germano-americans, maybe Acadians, or Swedish/Norwegian late immigrants communities. And probably Sikhs recent immigrants, although I'm not sure about that.
    - palmfacehn 2y ago
      I think it is important to distinguish between individualism vs. collectivism and selfish vs. altruistic. Egalitarian ideals are something different again. The US is highly individualistic. The founding documents are explicitly egalitarian.
    - onetokeoverthe 2y ago
      List_of_countries_by_charitable_donation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_charitable_donation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_charita... US ranks #1. the-world-s-most-charitable-nations https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-world-s-most-charitable-nations.html https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-world-s-most-charita... #4 https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/sep/08/charitable-giving-country https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/sep/08/charit... #6, only 2% less than #1.
    - rayiner 2y ago
      Those two things aren’t in contradiction. Egalitarianism refers to equality of opportunity regardless of social class: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egalitarianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egalitarianism. That’s distinct from believing everyone has a communal responsibility to take care of each other. E.g. Desi culture is communal—people lean on each other for support. But it’s not egalitarian—social class, family reputation, and even birth order are important in social interactions. I have cousins that married above their league because our family reputation carries weight back in our town. Americans by contrast are not communal. The difference is especially stark within extended families, where the bonds of mutual support are very weak. But they are egalitarian. Nobody cares about your family reputation. Egalitarianism is one of the things that makes America so attractive for immigration. Immigrants by definition have no spot in established familial hierarchies. In a society where that matters, immigrants can’t get to the top.
- jvanderbot 2y ago
  Looking for a "right" answer here is a lost cause. These are preference- and value-based policies, and we just have to cohere around a set of values that drive our policies. If it was framed in terms of "I value this" then the moral defensiveness would probably subside a little. It is my opinion that any argument against a native birthright to work and collectively demand the peak wage you can get is a fools errand. It just seems a natural extension of labor unions to have the whole country itself block access to jobs for foreign workers, to the extent that it does not subsequently drive ourselves out of a job through non-competitiveness. USA (arguably!) does not have a competitiveness problem yet in tech. But it also fits with the value of competition to have foreign workers enable our own businesses to succeed, such that they enable it through irreplaceable innovation, rather than wage suppression. Stealing scientists makes sense. Importing cheap labor does not. So, on paper, it fits with my values. In practice, that's another problem, and that's where we can change it.
- lupusreal 2y ago
  > "Wage theft" is a bit spicy as well. Are employees entitled to their job at a given wage as some kind of Nativist birth right? "Entitled" and "Nativist birth right" is loaded language that I think you're using to discredit valid labor concerns. Most people besides techy libertarians with empathy trouble generally think that workers should be getting paid enough to get by on, although opinions on what that level is or how best to accomplish it vary considerably. Having to compete with the slave labor of authoritarian regimes isn't right. Having to compete with indentured servants on H1B visas isn't right. These things are good for corporations, but as Sam Hyde pointed out, they make America worse.
  - palmfacehn 2y ago
    >Most people besides techy libertarians with empathy trouble generally think that workers should be getting paid enough to get by on I think everyone will agree that workers, or anyone else for that matter should live comfortable lives. The question is how and who? Should those poor souls slaving away under an authoritarian regime be given a chance to escape to greener pastures? The question of wages is well outlined, but more concerning is the purchasing power of those wages. This relates directly to productivity, specialization and the cost of goods. As for the concept of nativist birth right entitlement, for myself, I must start somewhere with first principles. Perhaps you have an alternative method of reasoning that you might outline for us. Many here take libertarianism to be some kind of Gordon Gecko caricature, or perhaps the Monopoly Man comes to mind. Yet if they propose that the state take matters (authoritarian regime?) into its own hands with central planning, they assume it to be a purely altruistic endeavor. Regulatory capture and a host of other malign incentives are lying in wait. Please don't assume a lack of empathy. It is simply a different approach to solving the problem of how workers or anyone else can prosper in an economy.
    - rayiner 2y ago
      It's not the libertarianism that's the problem, it's the assumption that, at scale, humans are fungible. Your "first principles" should include the presumption that "countries are the way they are because of their citizens." So the question is not just whether a given individual "deserves" to live in more or less comfortable circumstances. It's also: what happens when you import a large number of people from a place with an authoritarian regime to a democracy?
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klooney 2y ago
What is the point and purpose of the body shops? What's the value proposition for people contracting with them instead of a more straightforward offshore contracting arrangement? Who is hiring them?
- rad_gruchalski 2y ago
  It’s about keeping local jobs but paying less. Those H-1Bs live, work, spend, and pay taxes in the US. They are cheaper and you can kick them out on a whim.
  - josefritzishere 2y ago
    100% accurate!
  - klooney 2y ago
    "Live, work, spend, pay taxes" is valuable from the perspective of the government, but what's the point of keeping them local from the point of view of the company hiring the body shop? You can't use them to work on government stuff, which tends to require citizenship, so if it's just regular business, you could offshore them, and not pay the "rent in New Jersey" tax.
    - rad_gruchalski 2y ago
      What’s the point? To brag how jobs remain in the US and MAGA. It makes sense to a certain extent. You need to secure the infrastructure for that particular job to remain in your country but you want cheaper labor. From an employer perspective it shifts the balance of power. Those pesky citizens, they change jobs, have all these rights and demands… The visa is tied to the employer. The visa holder cannot just change an employer without the new employer applying for a new visa. Don’t like your job? Suck it up. Boss is a bully? Suck it up. Underpaid for your skills? Suck it up. Otherwise leave the country within 60 days max.
elashri 2y ago
I am not sure about the claim by one tweet cited in the article that the approved number per year is exceeding the limit of 85k to 800k. I understand that the limit can be exceeded (transfers and academic positions mainly) but I am not sure that would give x10 increase above the limit. Does anyone with more understanding and good numbers weight in about that?
- ritcgab 2y ago
  85k is new visas. Old visas need renewal every few years and that needs a new application and approval. In addition, if a visa holder changes their job, they need to transfer their visa to the new employer. That also counts. No matter what the real numbers are, the 85k ceiling is strictly enforced, meaning the program introduces up to 85k new people per year, excluding their dependents. Their dependents cannot work in the US though.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
m_ke 2y ago
The richest man in the world, who just fired 90% of his employees and plans on cutting the Department of Education saying Americans are too stupid so we need to remove the caps on indentured labor is the most amusing thing I've seen in a really long time. Immigration is America's greatest asset, followed closely by the vast oceans that shield our capital from any threats. H1B should be replaced by an auction system that lets in the top paid employees and converts to a green card after one year with the company.
- shkkmo 2y ago
  > The richest man in the world, who just fired 90% of his employees This isn't true. Best I can guess you are referencing the company formerly-known-as-twitter. The 90% number refers to software engineers, not employees and only applies to one of several companies that Musk runs.
  - m_ke 2y ago
    He had major layoffs at tesla too https://electrek.co/2024/12/30/tesla-replaced-laid-off-us-workers-with-foreign-workers-using-h-1b-visas-that-musk-want-to-increase/ https://electrek.co/2024/12/30/tesla-replaced-laid-off-us-wo... EDIT: in general, my point is that he practically triggered mass layoffs at large companies by being so vocal about doing it at twitter. A ton of investors were celebrating it after and pushing companies to do the same. The market for software engineers crashed after https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/IHLIDXUSTPSOFTDEVE https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/IHLIDXUSTPSOFTDEVE Also see the layoff charts tab on this site https://layoffs.fyi/ https://layoffs.fyi/
    - shkkmo 2y ago
      > in general, my point is that he practically triggered mass layoffs at large companies by being so vocal about doing at twitter. A ton of investors were celebrating it after and pushing companies to do the same. That's an interesting claim, and one I'd be curious to see a more detailed argument for. I'm sure it had an impact, but arguing it had a larger impact than the prevailing market conditions seems hard. The massive overhiring in the year or two before seems like the obvious culprits for the majority of the mass layoffs. I see a lot of hyperbolic and flat out false things said about Musk. I push back on them because I think that people's habitual innaccuracy when he is involved tends to make the real criticism of him harder.
EcommerceFlow 2y ago
1) Raise the minimum salary to 200k+. Anything else is indentured servitude/downwards wage pressure. 2) Remove the family extension. 80k/year shouldn't end up being 500k/year.
- apsec112 2y ago
  You'd have a hell of a time convincing anyone to take a US job if you had to leave your spouse and five-year-old behind. (Parents, siblings, and adult children aren't eligible for H-4 status.)
  - lupusreal 2y ago
    > You'd have a hell of a time convincing anyone to take a US job if you had to leave your spouse and five-year-old behind. Companies would have to [gasp] offer substantially more pay. Which would of course defeat the point ad far as corporations are concerned.
  - rayiner 2y ago
    Spouses and children are covered by H4.
    - apsec112 2y ago
      Yes, I mean if you got rid of H-4
- joshdavham 2y ago
  > 1) Raise the minimum salary to 200k+. Anything else is indentured servitude/downwards wage pressure. The average American salary is less than 70k per year. Don’t you think 200k is a bit high?
  - EcommerceFlow 2y ago
    We were sold on H1-B's being extraordinary people working extraordinary jobs that Americans cannot fulfill, not a wage suppression indentured servitude program.
jasode 2y ago
Honest question... is the Twitter screenshot[1] of Amazon jobs in Arlington VA enough to conclude that their H1B is specifically about low-wage warehouse jobs? Because Arlington VA also has these software engineering jobs: https://www.amazon.jobs/en/search?base_query=software+engineer&loc_query=Virginia%2C+United+States&latitude=&longitude=&loc_group_id=&invalid_location=false&country=USA&city=&region=Virginia https://www.amazon.jobs/en/search?base_query=software+engine... Lots of white-collar professional jobs in HQ2 Arlinton VA: https://www.amazon.jobs/content/en/locations/hq2 https://www.amazon.jobs/content/en/locations/hq2 Also, a H1B status that's exempt from the annual cap is still required to have minimum salary of $60k a year (~$30/hour): https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/62q-h1b-exempt-workers https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/62q-h1b-exempt-... The prevailing wage for warehouse labor is ~$18/hour: https://www.google.com/search?q=amazon+warehouse+worker+wages+arlington+va https://www.google.com/search?q=amazon+warehouse+worker+wage... [1] >@drsuffy: Anyways Amazon just had 9,200 Warehouse jobs be approved for H1B for 2024. Yes. Because "retail trade"(warehouse labor) is the best of the best and definitely can't be filled by your average American : https://x.com/drsuffy/status/1872679207991669109 https://x.com/drsuffy/status/1872679207991669109
- shkkmo 2y ago
  The application specifically lists the NAICS code so it's not just the location.
  - 015a 2y ago
    Sure, but that may simply be the NAICS code for all of Amazon, not the specific division that is doing the hiring.
- sct202 2y ago
  The post author doesn't understand the difference between industry and occupation.
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bad_haircut72 2y ago
Its not just the benefit to the US - every smart person we can convince to come here is one less in our competitor countries.
debacle 2y ago
The H1B system sucks for everyone but the employer, which is kind of the point. I have watched brilliant young devs have to jump through the OPT hoops in hopes of finally getting an H1B to live out their startup dream. I have also met H1Bs who have the mental acuity of a mildewy scone. There needs to be a difficult, but fair and clear path to citizenship.
- ritcgab 2y ago
  You don't need H1B for citizenship. Applying for EB2 green card is not dependent on work visas. However, most companies only sponsor green cards after the worker passes the H1B lottery.
dachworker 2y ago
If that's the case would you not expect there to me more European H-1Bs, the reasoning being that if these VISAs are not merit based but gaming the system, then why aren't Europeans taking advantage of this opportunity to get a 2x/3x salary bump, and loads more growth opportunities? What am I missing?
- bushbaba 2y ago
  Because Europeans don’t want to work 60-80hrs/week. Many don’t want to leave home. And the ones which do, are a minority. Thus you see low percentages of h1b go to europeans
  - polotics 2y ago
    Do all H1Bs really work 60-80 hours weeks? This is an honest question I find this very surprising. Also are the American colleagues of these H1B employees working significantly less hours, how does this work in practice?
    - rawgabbit 2y ago
      In my experience, yes. Over the years I was involuntarily tasked to manage H1Bs. During onboarding, they always tell me things like they are happy to pull all nighters on my whim. I tried to be professional. I told them I am not tracking when they come to the office or when they leave. I don’t check who is logged in after hours. I only care if their stories especially critical ones are being blocked. A director gently reprimanded me for my naivety and said his standard practice is to always promise dinner in the office and dinner is always late like 9PM. He expected a 996 culture in the US.
      - polotics 2y ago
        Ok. How has this worked out long term? Were the H1B indentured employees fully segregated from American employees? How was the attitude and collaboration from both sides?
joshdavham 2y ago
…or maybe the H-1B is just a visa to allow non-Americans to work in the US?
- ttyprintk 2y ago
  I can’t tell if you’re questioning whether H-1B should be absorbed into H-2B
  - joshdavham 2y ago
    I’m not.
MangoCoffee 2y ago
Whenever the H-1B visas come up, I always remember this old video(1) and Disney hiring foreign IT workers to replace its American workers and asking the American workers to train them(2). Companies will always abuse the system and find loopholes, just like rich people often find ways to avoid taxes. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx--jNQYNgA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx--jNQYNgA 2. https://web.archive.org/web/20241230014341/https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-layoff-at-disney-train-foreign-replacements.html https://web.archive.org/web/20241230014341/https://www.nytim...
schnable 2y ago
I am unsure how seriously to take the referenced tweets, which make extraordinary claims but cite no evidence.
015a 2y ago
The reality that I observe with H1Bs among a couple of my friends who are here on one is: They are paid less, they dislike their jobs, and they feel a tremendous inability to find a new one. H1Bs are figuratively a policy disconcertingly similar to slave labor. Much of this election cycle has been about the schism between the ground truth people observe, and what we're being told by the elites; the economy is good, but many people are struggling, stuff like that. H1Bs are that for me. Everyone says we need them, that our industry would be screwed without them; but what I see is a program which exists only to prop up unsustainable companies on the backs of cheap indentured labor; it does not serve the interests of the American people. The vast majority go to companies like Accenture; trash consulting companies. Immigration is America's superpower. Temporary migrant workers are not immigration. The goal of every foreign worker entering America should be citizenship, every migrant worker program should pose citizenship as the outcome, and if it would be politically/economically unsustainable to do that the program should not exist.
- franktankbank 2y ago
  > Immigration is America's superpower. I think America's natural resources are its superpower personally. Immigration has historically been important in setting up systems for extracting these resources however I think whether its good at a given time needs to be justified every time.
  - jvanderbot 2y ago
    There's one other way. While "demographic collapse" is an overwrought problem, relative demographic advantage (a country having more favorable demographics for growth) is an area we can optimize for, and immigration (as well as child-positive culture) are a great way to ensure economic growth when dialed in properly.
    - salawat 2y ago
      Child positive growth only serves to further the Ponzi-esque post New Deal-esque Social Security apparatus. It is no more stable/sustainable than reliance on H-1B's. Until we break the Ponzi structure, all we're doing is gaslighting the next generation.
RajT88 2y ago
Dunno why flagged. I had a friend here on a visa whose boss definitely committed wage theft, making anyone who was not a citizen or on a green card work extra hours for no overtime. He was not even a techie. This is apparently very common. That is before you even get into the "body shops" which I find quite believable.
- ritcgab 2y ago
  "I had a friend". Typical.
  - RajT88 2y ago
    My roommate for four years. So I heard about it on a weekly basis. Better?
    - ritcgab 2y ago
      Market is so bad so it would be too risky for your roomie to get another job. The employer knows this and exploits this. I understand it.
      - RajT88 2y ago
        In his case, he was not on an H1B, but whatever it is people from Japan tend to get. He was tied to the employer for his visa, but the market was fine at the time. In 2008/2009 (I forget) he won he green card lottery, and immediately all that overtime he was asked to put in stopped. This was after being told his company would sponsor him for a green card if he stayed there 5 years (and then reneged on that - his boss saying "I never said that"). There was a bit of cultural exploitation as well - Japanese workers were expected to put in 12 hour days (it was a Japanese company) even though the bosses weren't all Japanese. It was surreal to hear about - a Korean boss saying, "You have to work 12 hours, because you're Japanese". This is just the stuff I recall. There was more I am forgetting as well. A fair bit has to be illegal I'm sure, and was back then even.
ritcgab 2y ago
It is not valid to use the number of workers got laid off vs the number of new H1B visas applied in the same company to argue that foreign labor is replacing US workers. You just don't know how many H1B owners are laid off.

64 points by megamike 2y ago

It is too politically loaded for people to examine. In the simple terms, as per the title, it is protectionism. Without making an argument for either position, it seems a bit hypocritical when tariff critics, "You know this means the consumer will pay more, right?", reverse their position and demand protectionism for labor. Of course there is much more nuance. Many H1Bs are not the mega-geniuses proponents allege. I lose interest when the argument turns towards IQ distributions and ID politics. "Wage theft" is a bit spicy as well. Are employees entitled to their job at a given wage as some kind of Nativist birth right? Comedian Sam Hyde had some interesting takes. I'm not convinced of his position, but he did well to illustrate how the dialogue around this issue isn't getting us there.

bobosha 2y ago
well said, this debate is too emotional to have a balanced conversation. Overall h1b issue is a dichotomy - like with many such hot-button issues - with both sides right about the other side, but wrong about themselves.
- cactacea 2y ago
  So we just shouldn't then? Please help me understand your point
rayiner 2y ago
No, we can openly debate the issue now. https://youtu.be/oumNS_ORzd0?si=g2yJaz4u4iznt4KH https://youtu.be/oumNS_ORzd0?si=g2yJaz4u4iznt4KH. We need to have an honest conversation about not only the economic aspect, but the cultural aspect as well. We know that key cultural traits like social trust persist for generations in immigrants: https://www.sup.org/books/economics-and-finance/culture-transplant https://www.sup.org/books/economics-and-finance/culture-tran.... What is the effect of importing H1B workers, who are mostly elites back home, into the U.S. where many of them or their children attain positions of power over Americans? My extended family has been extremely successful as immigrants from Bangladesh to Canada, the U.S., and Australia. But temperamentally, even the second generation folks are still basically Desi. They lack the egalitarianism and conscientiousness of Anglo Americans, and retain much of the “everyone for themselves” from back home. Ross Douthat wrote a fascinating article about the ramifications of this change: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/05/opinion/george-bush-wasps.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/05/opinion/george-bush-wasps...
- orwin 2y ago
  > They lack the egalitarianism and conscientiousness of Anglo Americans I'm sorry, but egalitarianism is not a trait I would attribute to Anglo Americans. America is a very selfish nation, built on selfish ideals. You'll have communities that aren't, but they aren't Anglo Americans: it's mostly germano-americans, maybe Acadians, or Swedish/Norwegian late immigrants communities. And probably Sikhs recent immigrants, although I'm not sure about that.
  - palmfacehn 2y ago
    I think it is important to distinguish between individualism vs. collectivism and selfish vs. altruistic. Egalitarian ideals are something different again. The US is highly individualistic. The founding documents are explicitly egalitarian.
  - onetokeoverthe 2y ago
    List_of_countries_by_charitable_donation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_charitable_donation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_charita... US ranks #1. the-world-s-most-charitable-nations https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-world-s-most-charitable-nations.html https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-world-s-most-charita... #4 https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/sep/08/charitable-giving-country https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/sep/08/charit... #6, only 2% less than #1.
  - rayiner 2y ago
    Those two things aren’t in contradiction. Egalitarianism refers to equality of opportunity regardless of social class: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egalitarianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egalitarianism. That’s distinct from believing everyone has a communal responsibility to take care of each other. E.g. Desi culture is communal—people lean on each other for support. But it’s not egalitarian—social class, family reputation, and even birth order are important in social interactions. I have cousins that married above their league because our family reputation carries weight back in our town. Americans by contrast are not communal. The difference is especially stark within extended families, where the bonds of mutual support are very weak. But they are egalitarian. Nobody cares about your family reputation. Egalitarianism is one of the things that makes America so attractive for immigration. Immigrants by definition have no spot in established familial hierarchies. In a society where that matters, immigrants can’t get to the top.
jvanderbot 2y ago
Looking for a "right" answer here is a lost cause. These are preference- and value-based policies, and we just have to cohere around a set of values that drive our policies. If it was framed in terms of "I value this" then the moral defensiveness would probably subside a little. It is my opinion that any argument against a native birthright to work and collectively demand the peak wage you can get is a fools errand. It just seems a natural extension of labor unions to have the whole country itself block access to jobs for foreign workers, to the extent that it does not subsequently drive ourselves out of a job through non-competitiveness. USA (arguably!) does not have a competitiveness problem yet in tech. But it also fits with the value of competition to have foreign workers enable our own businesses to succeed, such that they enable it through irreplaceable innovation, rather than wage suppression. Stealing scientists makes sense. Importing cheap labor does not. So, on paper, it fits with my values. In practice, that's another problem, and that's where we can change it.
lupusreal 2y ago
> "Wage theft" is a bit spicy as well. Are employees entitled to their job at a given wage as some kind of Nativist birth right? "Entitled" and "Nativist birth right" is loaded language that I think you're using to discredit valid labor concerns. Most people besides techy libertarians with empathy trouble generally think that workers should be getting paid enough to get by on, although opinions on what that level is or how best to accomplish it vary considerably. Having to compete with the slave labor of authoritarian regimes isn't right. Having to compete with indentured servants on H1B visas isn't right. These things are good for corporations, but as Sam Hyde pointed out, they make America worse.
- palmfacehn 2y ago
  >Most people besides techy libertarians with empathy trouble generally think that workers should be getting paid enough to get by on I think everyone will agree that workers, or anyone else for that matter should live comfortable lives. The question is how and who? Should those poor souls slaving away under an authoritarian regime be given a chance to escape to greener pastures? The question of wages is well outlined, but more concerning is the purchasing power of those wages. This relates directly to productivity, specialization and the cost of goods. As for the concept of nativist birth right entitlement, for myself, I must start somewhere with first principles. Perhaps you have an alternative method of reasoning that you might outline for us. Many here take libertarianism to be some kind of Gordon Gecko caricature, or perhaps the Monopoly Man comes to mind. Yet if they propose that the state take matters (authoritarian regime?) into its own hands with central planning, they assume it to be a purely altruistic endeavor. Regulatory capture and a host of other malign incentives are lying in wait. Please don't assume a lack of empathy. It is simply a different approach to solving the problem of how workers or anyone else can prosper in an economy.
  - rayiner 2y ago
    It's not the libertarianism that's the problem, it's the assumption that, at scale, humans are fungible. Your "first principles" should include the presumption that "countries are the way they are because of their citizens." So the question is not just whether a given individual "deserves" to live in more or less comfortable circumstances. It's also: what happens when you import a large number of people from a place with an authoritarian regime to a democracy?

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klooney 2y ago

What is the point and purpose of the body shops? What's the value proposition for people contracting with them instead of a more straightforward offshore contracting arrangement? Who is hiring them?

rad_gruchalski 2y ago
It’s about keeping local jobs but paying less. Those H-1Bs live, work, spend, and pay taxes in the US. They are cheaper and you can kick them out on a whim.
- josefritzishere 2y ago
  100% accurate!
- klooney 2y ago
  "Live, work, spend, pay taxes" is valuable from the perspective of the government, but what's the point of keeping them local from the point of view of the company hiring the body shop? You can't use them to work on government stuff, which tends to require citizenship, so if it's just regular business, you could offshore them, and not pay the "rent in New Jersey" tax.
  - rad_gruchalski 2y ago
    What’s the point? To brag how jobs remain in the US and MAGA. It makes sense to a certain extent. You need to secure the infrastructure for that particular job to remain in your country but you want cheaper labor. From an employer perspective it shifts the balance of power. Those pesky citizens, they change jobs, have all these rights and demands… The visa is tied to the employer. The visa holder cannot just change an employer without the new employer applying for a new visa. Don’t like your job? Suck it up. Boss is a bully? Suck it up. Underpaid for your skills? Suck it up. Otherwise leave the country within 60 days max.

elashri 2y ago

I am not sure about the claim by one tweet cited in the article that the approved number per year is exceeding the limit of 85k to 800k. I understand that the limit can be exceeded (transfers and academic positions mainly) but I am not sure that would give x10 increase above the limit. Does anyone with more understanding and good numbers weight in about that?

ritcgab 2y ago
85k is new visas. Old visas need renewal every few years and that needs a new application and approval. In addition, if a visa holder changes their job, they need to transfer their visa to the new employer. That also counts. No matter what the real numbers are, the 85k ceiling is strictly enforced, meaning the program introduces up to 85k new people per year, excluding their dependents. Their dependents cannot work in the US though.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

m_ke 2y ago

The richest man in the world, who just fired 90% of his employees and plans on cutting the Department of Education saying Americans are too stupid so we need to remove the caps on indentured labor is the most amusing thing I've seen in a really long time. Immigration is America's greatest asset, followed closely by the vast oceans that shield our capital from any threats. H1B should be replaced by an auction system that lets in the top paid employees and converts to a green card after one year with the company.

shkkmo 2y ago
> The richest man in the world, who just fired 90% of his employees This isn't true. Best I can guess you are referencing the company formerly-known-as-twitter. The 90% number refers to software engineers, not employees and only applies to one of several companies that Musk runs.
- m_ke 2y ago
  He had major layoffs at tesla too https://electrek.co/2024/12/30/tesla-replaced-laid-off-us-workers-with-foreign-workers-using-h-1b-visas-that-musk-want-to-increase/ https://electrek.co/2024/12/30/tesla-replaced-laid-off-us-wo... EDIT: in general, my point is that he practically triggered mass layoffs at large companies by being so vocal about doing it at twitter. A ton of investors were celebrating it after and pushing companies to do the same. The market for software engineers crashed after https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/IHLIDXUSTPSOFTDEVE https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/IHLIDXUSTPSOFTDEVE Also see the layoff charts tab on this site https://layoffs.fyi/ https://layoffs.fyi/
  - shkkmo 2y ago
    > in general, my point is that he practically triggered mass layoffs at large companies by being so vocal about doing at twitter. A ton of investors were celebrating it after and pushing companies to do the same. That's an interesting claim, and one I'd be curious to see a more detailed argument for. I'm sure it had an impact, but arguing it had a larger impact than the prevailing market conditions seems hard. The massive overhiring in the year or two before seems like the obvious culprits for the majority of the mass layoffs. I see a lot of hyperbolic and flat out false things said about Musk. I push back on them because I think that people's habitual innaccuracy when he is involved tends to make the real criticism of him harder.

EcommerceFlow 2y ago

1) Raise the minimum salary to 200k+. Anything else is indentured servitude/downwards wage pressure. 2) Remove the family extension. 80k/year shouldn't end up being 500k/year.

apsec112 2y ago
You'd have a hell of a time convincing anyone to take a US job if you had to leave your spouse and five-year-old behind. (Parents, siblings, and adult children aren't eligible for H-4 status.)
- lupusreal 2y ago
  > You'd have a hell of a time convincing anyone to take a US job if you had to leave your spouse and five-year-old behind. Companies would have to [gasp] offer substantially more pay. Which would of course defeat the point ad far as corporations are concerned.
- rayiner 2y ago
  Spouses and children are covered by H4.
  - apsec112 2y ago
    Yes, I mean if you got rid of H-4
joshdavham 2y ago
> 1) Raise the minimum salary to 200k+. Anything else is indentured servitude/downwards wage pressure. The average American salary is less than 70k per year. Don’t you think 200k is a bit high?
- EcommerceFlow 2y ago
  We were sold on H1-B's being extraordinary people working extraordinary jobs that Americans cannot fulfill, not a wage suppression indentured servitude program.

jasode 2y ago

Honest question... is the Twitter screenshot[1] of Amazon jobs in Arlington VA enough to conclude that their H1B is specifically about low-wage warehouse jobs? Because Arlington VA also has these software engineering jobs: https://www.amazon.jobs/en/search?base_query=software+engineer&loc_query=Virginia%2C+United+States&latitude=&longitude=&loc_group_id=&invalid_location=false&country=USA&city=&region=Virginia https://www.amazon.jobs/en/search?base_query=software+engine... Lots of white-collar professional jobs in HQ2 Arlinton VA: https://www.amazon.jobs/content/en/locations/hq2 https://www.amazon.jobs/content/en/locations/hq2 Also, a H1B status that's exempt from the annual cap is still required to have minimum salary of $60k a year (~$30/hour): https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/62q-h1b-exempt-workers https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/62q-h1b-exempt-... The prevailing wage for warehouse labor is ~$18/hour: https://www.google.com/search?q=amazon+warehouse+worker+wages+arlington+va https://www.google.com/search?q=amazon+warehouse+worker+wage... [1] >@drsuffy: Anyways Amazon just had 9,200 Warehouse jobs be approved for H1B for 2024. Yes. Because "retail trade"(warehouse labor) is the best of the best and definitely can't be filled by your average American : https://x.com/drsuffy/status/1872679207991669109 https://x.com/drsuffy/status/1872679207991669109

shkkmo 2y ago
The application specifically lists the NAICS code so it's not just the location.
- 015a 2y ago
  Sure, but that may simply be the NAICS code for all of Amazon, not the specific division that is doing the hiring.
sct202 2y ago
The post author doesn't understand the difference between industry and occupation.

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bad_haircut72 2y ago

Its not just the benefit to the US - every smart person we can convince to come here is one less in our competitor countries.

debacle 2y ago

The H1B system sucks for everyone but the employer, which is kind of the point. I have watched brilliant young devs have to jump through the OPT hoops in hopes of finally getting an H1B to live out their startup dream. I have also met H1Bs who have the mental acuity of a mildewy scone. There needs to be a difficult, but fair and clear path to citizenship.

ritcgab 2y ago
You don't need H1B for citizenship. Applying for EB2 green card is not dependent on work visas. However, most companies only sponsor green cards after the worker passes the H1B lottery.

dachworker 2y ago

If that's the case would you not expect there to me more European H-1Bs, the reasoning being that if these VISAs are not merit based but gaming the system, then why aren't Europeans taking advantage of this opportunity to get a 2x/3x salary bump, and loads more growth opportunities? What am I missing?

bushbaba 2y ago
Because Europeans don’t want to work 60-80hrs/week. Many don’t want to leave home. And the ones which do, are a minority. Thus you see low percentages of h1b go to europeans
- polotics 2y ago
  Do all H1Bs really work 60-80 hours weeks? This is an honest question I find this very surprising. Also are the American colleagues of these H1B employees working significantly less hours, how does this work in practice?
  - rawgabbit 2y ago
    In my experience, yes. Over the years I was involuntarily tasked to manage H1Bs. During onboarding, they always tell me things like they are happy to pull all nighters on my whim. I tried to be professional. I told them I am not tracking when they come to the office or when they leave. I don’t check who is logged in after hours. I only care if their stories especially critical ones are being blocked. A director gently reprimanded me for my naivety and said his standard practice is to always promise dinner in the office and dinner is always late like 9PM. He expected a 996 culture in the US.
    - polotics 2y ago
      Ok. How has this worked out long term? Were the H1B indentured employees fully segregated from American employees? How was the attitude and collaboration from both sides?

joshdavham 2y ago

…or maybe the H-1B is just a visa to allow non-Americans to work in the US?

ttyprintk 2y ago
I can’t tell if you’re questioning whether H-1B should be absorbed into H-2B
- joshdavham 2y ago
  I’m not.

MangoCoffee 2y ago

Whenever the H-1B visas come up, I always remember this old video(1) and Disney hiring foreign IT workers to replace its American workers and asking the American workers to train them(2). Companies will always abuse the system and find loopholes, just like rich people often find ways to avoid taxes. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx--jNQYNgA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx--jNQYNgA 2. https://web.archive.org/web/20241230014341/https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-layoff-at-disney-train-foreign-replacements.html https://web.archive.org/web/20241230014341/https://www.nytim...

schnable 2y ago

I am unsure how seriously to take the referenced tweets, which make extraordinary claims but cite no evidence.

015a 2y ago

The reality that I observe with H1Bs among a couple of my friends who are here on one is: They are paid less, they dislike their jobs, and they feel a tremendous inability to find a new one. H1Bs are figuratively a policy disconcertingly similar to slave labor. Much of this election cycle has been about the schism between the ground truth people observe, and what we're being told by the elites; the economy is good, but many people are struggling, stuff like that. H1Bs are that for me. Everyone says we need them, that our industry would be screwed without them; but what I see is a program which exists only to prop up unsustainable companies on the backs of cheap indentured labor; it does not serve the interests of the American people. The vast majority go to companies like Accenture; trash consulting companies. Immigration is America's superpower. Temporary migrant workers are not immigration. The goal of every foreign worker entering America should be citizenship, every migrant worker program should pose citizenship as the outcome, and if it would be politically/economically unsustainable to do that the program should not exist.

franktankbank 2y ago
> Immigration is America's superpower. I think America's natural resources are its superpower personally. Immigration has historically been important in setting up systems for extracting these resources however I think whether its good at a given time needs to be justified every time.
- jvanderbot 2y ago
  There's one other way. While "demographic collapse" is an overwrought problem, relative demographic advantage (a country having more favorable demographics for growth) is an area we can optimize for, and immigration (as well as child-positive culture) are a great way to ensure economic growth when dialed in properly.
  - salawat 2y ago
    Child positive growth only serves to further the Ponzi-esque post New Deal-esque Social Security apparatus. It is no more stable/sustainable than reliance on H-1B's. Until we break the Ponzi structure, all we're doing is gaslighting the next generation.

RajT88 2y ago

Dunno why flagged. I had a friend here on a visa whose boss definitely committed wage theft, making anyone who was not a citizen or on a green card work extra hours for no overtime. He was not even a techie. This is apparently very common. That is before you even get into the "body shops" which I find quite believable.

ritcgab 2y ago
"I had a friend". Typical.
- RajT88 2y ago
  My roommate for four years. So I heard about it on a weekly basis. Better?
  - ritcgab 2y ago
    Market is so bad so it would be too risky for your roomie to get another job. The employer knows this and exploits this. I understand it.
    - RajT88 2y ago
      In his case, he was not on an H1B, but whatever it is people from Japan tend to get. He was tied to the employer for his visa, but the market was fine at the time. In 2008/2009 (I forget) he won he green card lottery, and immediately all that overtime he was asked to put in stopped. This was after being told his company would sponsor him for a green card if he stayed there 5 years (and then reneged on that - his boss saying "I never said that"). There was a bit of cultural exploitation as well - Japanese workers were expected to put in 12 hour days (it was a Japanese company) even though the bosses weren't all Japanese. It was surreal to hear about - a Korean boss saying, "You have to work 12 hours, because you're Japanese". This is just the stuff I recall. There was more I am forgetting as well. A fair bit has to be illegal I'm sure, and was back then even.

ritcgab 2y ago

It is not valid to use the number of workers got laid off vs the number of new H1B visas applied in the same company to argue that foreign labor is replacing US workers. You just don't know how many H1B owners are laid off.