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> On the other hand, there is absolutely no reason that Uber or Waymo needs to have an "app". Here’s one: I don’t give websites my location or the ability to i

> On the other hand, there is absolutely no reason that Uber or Waymo needs to have an "app". Here’s one: I don’t give websites my location or the ability to interrupt me with notifications. Ever. I’ve blocked the browser from doing this entirely. I have Uber and Lyft apps installed and granted those permissions though.

ipaddr 2y ago
You could give only them location access then they wouldn't be able to see what apps are installed, contacts and family photos or listen on the mic. You are afraid of a browser so you give system access?
- SllX 2y ago
  What kind of phone are you running and how old is it? Apps don’t get any of that other information either unless you specifically approve it. If you want to give Uber just notifications and just location, you can do that.
  - fragmede 2y ago
    And even then, it only gets location access while it's running (if that's the access that's set). And doesn't get to run in the background either (if you say it's not allowed to).
  - Asmod4n 2y ago
    "When it's running" also means when it runs in the background, and apps can wake themselves up any time they want when you allow them to send you notifications.
    - SllX 2y ago
      Running location triggers an icon in the UI which puts it in a list of apps that have run location recently. An app abusing this in the background will eventually cause the operating system to ask you “hey, are you okay with this?” alongside a map of your current location as your phone sees it.
- adastra22 2y ago
  What you describe hasn't been the case for almost a decade. On iOS and Android apps need to explicitly request and be granted one-by-one permission for all those items. Which is exactly the problem I'm encountering for web apps--typically the browser is granted all those privileges and then there is a per-site restriction in place. (1) I don't trust this sub-level restriction as much as I do the native per-app restrictions, and (2) it's often more difficult to configure and stay on top of (e.g. iOS will nag me if an app has been using my location in the background, the browser will not). For these reasons, I restrict my browser to NOT be allowed access to bluetooth, location information, etc. Nobody gets to track me through the browser. If a site I use needs those capabilities, I install their app.
  - urbandw311er 2y ago
    Here’s an example of how large companies abuse their power to push back against these privacy guards. iOS has the ability to share your photos with an app in a special “picker” where you select the pics you want to share and then they’re sent to the app. The app can’t see the picker so it only has access to the photos you explicitly share. WhatsApp deliberately ignores this integration path and gives you a choice of either manually choosing more photos to share each time, then selecting them a second time. Or sharing all photos forever, which most users will eventually choose because the friction of the first one is so massive. It’s done cynically and deliberately so they can have access to all your photographs. I shudder to think for what purpose.
sgustard 2y ago
Uber is almost the canonical example of something that should be an app! I need to do a frequent task, I punch up the app, I'm always logged in with my location pinpointed, I get a little live-updating widget on my phone with my ride location, plus notifications and Apple Pay and so on. When my ride's over I'm done with the app. Much more useful than say the "Hilton Honors" or "Ann Arbor News" apps which are literally website wrappers that I use once a year.
- bloppe 2y ago
  literally each of those things is also totally possible and easy with a PWA, except maybe the widget.
  - lurking_swe 2y ago
    which approach would use less battery though? rendering a web view is always more expensive than native rendering. What about older smartphones that may not work well with bloated web frontend frameworks? I agree that most of it is possible but in this case I agree with parent, uber makes more sense as a native app.
bloppe 2y ago
Is there a reason why you think location access is OK for the Uber app but not ok for the uber.com website?
- adastra22 2y ago
  That's not what I was saying. Granting the permission to uber.com requires granting the permission first to the browser, then configuring and trusting the browser's own internal per-site restrictions. I don't trust this as much as the more fine grained and configurable OS-level restrictions.
  - urbandw311er 2y ago
    Uber are the worst for abusing this kind of stuff and for dark UX patterns to get you to subscribe to Uber One. I’m repeatedly asked SEVERAL TIMES EVERY TIME I USE THE APP. and there is no way to pause or opt out from this nagging. They even abuse the push notifications to try and sell me stuff as well.
    - steelframe 2y ago
      > I’m repeatedly asked SEVERAL TIMES EVERY TIME I USE THE APP. You know what doesn't do that? The local cab company when I call them to ask for a pick up.
- high_priest 2y ago
  I feel like I have much more control over "when" I share my location, if permission is granted to "uber app" not "uber domain". All the reasons I come up with, can be easily argued "you can do the same thing in a browser". But still, it is not the same.
wat10000 2y ago
Funny, I blocked notifications from the Uber and Lyft apps because they kept spamming me. And the notifications aren’t all that useful, since I’m actively checking the app whenever something time sensitive is happening anyway. Location is super useful here, of course.
- adastra22 2y ago
  I was referring to lock-screen notifications (time-sensitive notifications on iOS?), which are quite useful in this context. It was a feature basically designed for apps like Uber, and I do t think it’s available for web apps.

ipaddr 2y ago

You could give only them location access then they wouldn't be able to see what apps are installed, contacts and family photos or listen on the mic. You are afraid of a browser so you give system access?

SllX 2y ago
What kind of phone are you running and how old is it? Apps don’t get any of that other information either unless you specifically approve it. If you want to give Uber just notifications and just location, you can do that.
- fragmede 2y ago
  And even then, it only gets location access while it's running (if that's the access that's set). And doesn't get to run in the background either (if you say it's not allowed to).
- Asmod4n 2y ago
  "When it's running" also means when it runs in the background, and apps can wake themselves up any time they want when you allow them to send you notifications.
  - SllX 2y ago
    Running location triggers an icon in the UI which puts it in a list of apps that have run location recently. An app abusing this in the background will eventually cause the operating system to ask you “hey, are you okay with this?” alongside a map of your current location as your phone sees it.
adastra22 2y ago
What you describe hasn't been the case for almost a decade. On iOS and Android apps need to explicitly request and be granted one-by-one permission for all those items. Which is exactly the problem I'm encountering for web apps--typically the browser is granted all those privileges and then there is a per-site restriction in place. (1) I don't trust this sub-level restriction as much as I do the native per-app restrictions, and (2) it's often more difficult to configure and stay on top of (e.g. iOS will nag me if an app has been using my location in the background, the browser will not). For these reasons, I restrict my browser to NOT be allowed access to bluetooth, location information, etc. Nobody gets to track me through the browser. If a site I use needs those capabilities, I install their app.
- urbandw311er 2y ago
  Here’s an example of how large companies abuse their power to push back against these privacy guards. iOS has the ability to share your photos with an app in a special “picker” where you select the pics you want to share and then they’re sent to the app. The app can’t see the picker so it only has access to the photos you explicitly share. WhatsApp deliberately ignores this integration path and gives you a choice of either manually choosing more photos to share each time, then selecting them a second time. Or sharing all photos forever, which most users will eventually choose because the friction of the first one is so massive. It’s done cynically and deliberately so they can have access to all your photographs. I shudder to think for what purpose.

sgustard 2y ago

Uber is almost the canonical example of something that should be an app! I need to do a frequent task, I punch up the app, I'm always logged in with my location pinpointed, I get a little live-updating widget on my phone with my ride location, plus notifications and Apple Pay and so on. When my ride's over I'm done with the app. Much more useful than say the "Hilton Honors" or "Ann Arbor News" apps which are literally website wrappers that I use once a year.

bloppe 2y ago
literally each of those things is also totally possible and easy with a PWA, except maybe the widget.
- lurking_swe 2y ago
  which approach would use less battery though? rendering a web view is always more expensive than native rendering. What about older smartphones that may not work well with bloated web frontend frameworks? I agree that most of it is possible but in this case I agree with parent, uber makes more sense as a native app.

bloppe 2y ago

Is there a reason why you think location access is OK for the Uber app but not ok for the uber.com website?

adastra22 2y ago
That's not what I was saying. Granting the permission to uber.com requires granting the permission first to the browser, then configuring and trusting the browser's own internal per-site restrictions. I don't trust this as much as the more fine grained and configurable OS-level restrictions.
- urbandw311er 2y ago
  Uber are the worst for abusing this kind of stuff and for dark UX patterns to get you to subscribe to Uber One. I’m repeatedly asked SEVERAL TIMES EVERY TIME I USE THE APP. and there is no way to pause or opt out from this nagging. They even abuse the push notifications to try and sell me stuff as well.
  - steelframe 2y ago
    > I’m repeatedly asked SEVERAL TIMES EVERY TIME I USE THE APP. You know what doesn't do that? The local cab company when I call them to ask for a pick up.
high_priest 2y ago
I feel like I have much more control over "when" I share my location, if permission is granted to "uber app" not "uber domain". All the reasons I come up with, can be easily argued "you can do the same thing in a browser". But still, it is not the same.

wat10000 2y ago

Funny, I blocked notifications from the Uber and Lyft apps because they kept spamming me. And the notifications aren’t all that useful, since I’m actively checking the app whenever something time sensitive is happening anyway. Location is super useful here, of course.

adastra22 2y ago
I was referring to lock-screen notifications (time-sensitive notifications on iOS?), which are quite useful in this context. It was a feature basically designed for apps like Uber, and I do t think it’s available for web apps.